I have the feeling that over the past years, we’ve started seeing more TV shows that are either sympathetic towards Hell and Satan, or somewhat negative towards Heaven. I just watched “Hazbin Hotel” today, which isn’t too theological, but clearly is fairly negative towards Heaven.

In “The Good Place”,

Spoilers for The Good Place

the people in The Bad Place end up pushing to improve the whole system, whereas The Good Place is happy to spend hundreds of year not letting people in.

“Little Demon” has Satan as a main character, and he’s more or less sympathetic.

“Ugly Americans” shows demons and Satan as relatively normal, and Hell doesn’t seem too bad.

I only watched the first episode of “Lucifer”, but it’s also more or less sympathetic towards Lucifer.

I have a few more examples (Billy Joel: “I’d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints”, or the very funny German “Ein Münchner im Himmel”, where Heaven is portrayed as fantastically boring), but I won’t list them all here.

My question is: how modern is this? I’ve heard of “Paradise Lost”, and I’ve heard that it portrays Satan somewhat sympathetically, though I found it very difficult to read. And the idea of the snake in the Garden of Eden as having given free will and wisdom to humanity can’t be that modern of a thought, even if it would have been heretical.

Is this something that’s happened in the last 10 years? Are there older examples? Does anyone have a good source I could read?

Note that I don’t claim Satan is always portrayed positively, or Heaven always negatively :).

  • AbouBenAdhem@lemmy.world
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    15 days ago

    The idea of Satan as the embodiment of evil is arguably an early medieval borrowing from Zoroastrianism. In the Book of Job he works in conjunction with God as a tester of souls, and his roles in the garden of Eden and the temptation of Jesus aren’t inconsistent with that. And a lot of the popular folklore associated with him originates from morally-ambiguous trickster figures from other traditions that were absorbed into Christianity.

    • socsa@piefed.social
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      15 days ago

      I would even argue that there is actually a distinction to be drawn from the old world ideas of good and evil, and the modern ideas which have almost become “good vs nuance.” No ancient religion goes as far as modern Christianity in terms of condemning people for mere non belief. This has led to a rise in literary themes around the idea that such moral absolutism is itself a form of evil, and that to the extent it implies demons are merely the stewards of nuance, that they must be more sympathetic than God.

      • Flax@feddit.uk
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        15 days ago

        The Epistle to the Romans and other Pauline epistles do seem to show that non-believers do generally go to hell.

        • socsa@piefed.social
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          15 days ago

          Right but the classic Catholic interpretation of damnation is that there is a huge layer of purgatory between “hell” and “eternal torture” for those who are not wicked. It is only fairly recently that we’ve had this “straight to pitchforks and fire” concept of hell.

          • Flax@feddit.uk
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            15 days ago

            No, it’s the opposite. Purgatory is a new thing. It’s not mentioned in the Bible at all and only really came up in the last 1000 years. Not even the Eastern Orthodox believe in purgatory.

    • bizarroland@fedia.io
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      15 days ago

      This is cobbled together from a potentially sketchy memory, but doesn’t Satan technically mean accuser? Like his whole role was to tell a whole bunch of goody goody saints in heaven what a piece of crap you are so that they would have something to compare and contrast the goodness that they see in everyone with?

      But also going back to opie’s original question, I do remember that one of the reasons for so many Kurdish massacres is that the Kurds have a belief that Satan after the fall fell to Earth and cried such tears that they put out the flames of God’s wrath.

      And so they occasionally have ceremonies where they pray on behalf of Satan that God would forgive him in hopes that if God can forgive Satan then God can forgive them for their sins as well.

      The reason they are massacred is because the other people in the area have equated that concept with devil worship and so they are attempting to get holy +1 damage to their attacks buy first killing a bunch of devil worshipers and accruing the benefits of executing the wrath of God against sinners.

      • AbouBenAdhem@lemmy.world
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        15 days ago

        I do remember that one of the reasons for so many Kurdish massacres is that the Kurds have a belief that Satan after the fall fell to Earth and cried such tears that they put out the flames of God’s wrath.

        You’re probably thinking of the Yazidis—a group that lives in Kurdistan and speaks Kurdish but is distinct from the Kurds proper (who are mostly Sunni Muslims). The Yazidis have a very syncretistic religion drawing on elements of practically everything that ever existed in the region—including religions that were seen as heretical/satanic by subsequent ones.

    • CALIGVLA@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      15 days ago

      and his roles in the garden of Eden

      Not to mention that the idea of the snake being Satan is a more modern interpretation, for a good while the snake was just a snake.

    • Flax@feddit.uk
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      15 days ago

      Satan is very much evil in the Book of Job. He literally kills the dude’s entire family and ruins his life.

        • Flax@feddit.uk
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          14 days ago

          Not that it was okay, but to challenge God on His confidence in His servant. Satan will be punished for what he did to Job.

  • socsa@piefed.social
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    15 days ago

    Displaying nuance in “hell” as pushback against the binary concept of good and evil is arguably one of the oldest tropes in fiction. Both ancient Greek and Norse mythology very specifically depict the underworld as a place of ambiguity or even normality, with “heaven” holding a far more exalted status.

    Even in Abrahamic mythology the idea of hell being some kind of default punishment for sinners is a fairly modern idea, arguably stemming from Dante, who absolutely works a good amount of sympathy for sinners into the story. It really only is the most recent take on the concept by evangelical Christians which holds that an otherwise innocent person will be tortured for eternity over a mere lack of faith, and that form of absurd extremism certaintly plays a large role in the modern backlash against the concept.

    • Flax@feddit.uk
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      15 days ago

      The Bible does portray hell as the default, such as saying all have sinned and have fallen short of the Glory of God, Jesus saying He is the only way to The Father and saying that you’re saved by grace alone and not by works

      • zbyte64@awful.systems
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        15 days ago

        Not going to heaven doesn’t mean you automatically go to hell. Do you think the Jews thought all the gentiles were going to hell?

        • Flax@feddit.uk
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          14 days ago

          There were different sects. Sheoul was a thing that was mentioned several times as well. Revelation also makes it clear:

          Revelation 20:12-15

          And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

          • zbyte64@awful.systems
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            14 days ago

            Why do you think the Book of Revelations speaks to the Jewish faith? I am not of the opinion that Jews follow the new testament.

            • Flax@feddit.uk
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              13 days ago

              We’re not talking about Jews here, we’re talking about Christianity

              • zbyte64@awful.systems
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                13 days ago

                I clearly was talking about Judaism and you are not. It’s okay if “We” are talking about two different things 🤷

  • yesman@lemmy.world
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    15 days ago

    Milton’s Paradise Lost doesn’t paint Hell as pleasant, but Satan is absolutely the protagonist of the story. That’s 1667.

    • nondescripthandle@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      15 days ago

      “But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most?”

      I went to a religious school and after learning the whole fallen angel backstory I used to pray for him, didn’t know until learning of that quote that Im not the only one. I later learned from a smarter religious teacher that the devil is not canonical, at least not in the way they’re portrayed today. You can thank Dantes Inferno for modern devil characterization.

      • Dagwood222@lemm.ee
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        15 days ago

        I remember reading an old fantasy set in Hell. The joke was that when souls come to Hell they bring their expectations with them. The older demons are sick of all the changes the new dead people bring with them.

  • zbyte64@awful.systems
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    The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either – but right through every human heart – and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. And even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained

    • Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
  • cabhan@discuss.tchncs.deOP
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    15 days ago

    I completely forgot to mention His Dark Materials! Hell doesn’t appear, but Heaven is portrayed as actively bad.

  • henfredemars@infosec.pub
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    15 days ago

    I’ve noticed this in video games too. For example, in Monster Train you fight as the champions of hell to save what’s left of your home against the forces of light.

  • gandalf_der_12te@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    14 days ago

    Right now I can think of the buddhist “tale of the bug”.

    Two (human) friends died and were reborn. One in heaven, the other as a dung beetle (a type of bug) on a dung pile.

    The guy in heaven tried to “help” his friend by going down to Earth and carrying his friend to the skies. But his friend refused, because the dung pile was now his home, and he didn’t want to leave at any cost. Only then the guy realized that it is not heaven that makes you happy, but finding the place that you’re destined for.

  • AwkwardLookMonkeyPuppet@lemmy.world
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    15 days ago

    Letters from Earth was written by Mark Twain in 1909, but publishers refused to publish it until 1962. So, I’d say it’s fairly modern, starting around 1962 and becoming more acceptable since then.

  • Daemon Silverstein@thelemmy.club
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    15 days ago

    From my own experience as an ex-christian and now a “pagan” person (syncretic demonolater), I’d point many factors that converged to a general understanding of how demons aren’t so evil as we thought before (and how angels and God himself aren’t so good as we thought before), while also leading to the understanding and reevaluating of the concepts good and evil, light and darkness.

    Starting by the technological progress that allowed us to connect in realtime. Social networks, online communities that gathered people once unbeknownst to each other. Online platforms that connected people from different backgrounds, sharing once unknown knowledge. Books once distant from our reaches are now easily accessible through online libraries. Knowledge was never been so easy to reach (albeit there are many people that prefer ignorance).

    This leads us to another important factor: the silent rediscovery and rising of ancient beliefs. The cyberspace brought us knowledge about the Sumerian faith, Hellenism beliefs and many, many others. Everyone can now know in detail about ancient deities and concepts in just a few clicks. Entities and deities such as The Mother Goddess (once extensively worshipped by our ancestors) is being rediscovered. We can easily know a Wiccan nowadays, or a Luciferian, or a neo-hellenist, or a Gnostic, or syncretic people like me, thanks to the internet connection and community. There’s also the gnosis (i.e. knowledge through spiritual channelling) becoming available as soon as we have the basic openness to all this great knowledge and wisdom.

    These two factors lead to a last factor: the weakening of Christiancracy (the former theocratic West where State and Christianity were intertwined as one) and the strengthening of both secularism (atheists, yet to understand how metaphysical aspects converge with the modern scientific inquiry; as an example, the modern chemistry began from the ancient alchemy) and syncretic ancient beliefs (once “pagan” and “forbidden” knowledge and both sacred and/or profane ritualistic practices, now openly available to be learnt and to be known).

    In this way, movies and cinema are just echoes of these phenomena, echoes of the human awakening, becoming part of the culture, extending how the knowledge can reach and teach the masses, even though movies and TV series always have some degree of poetic freedom so they don’t always represent things as precisely/concisely as a book/grimoire/oral knowledge. Media knowledge is far from perfect, but their esoteric and occult references spark the curiosity on part of the audience, people that will begin to really know what it’s all about. As a personal example, I got to know some esoteric concepts through Supernatural TV series (although it demanded my own research that led me to Luciferianism and then to Lilith).

    In summary, I’d call it the Aquarian Era, the Kali Yuga, the Revelation, the new Aeon. Some would call it “evil”, while humanity as a whole can now rediscover what “evilness” really is: it’s not the demons. It’s a part of the Cosmos, it’s a part of the Nature, it’s a part of ourselves, as above so below. Our spiritual awakening is important to lead us to understand our own shadows through the wisdom of ancient, ambivalent forces, and reintegrating ourselves in Oneness with them.

  • stringere@sh.itjust.works
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    15 days ago

    Just a few off the top of my head that portray heaven in a negative light, are sympathetic to the devil, or have an otherwise non-traditional take on the judeo-christian mythos.

    1995 - Memnoch the Devil, novel, Anne Rice

    1995 - Preacher, comics/graphic novels, writer Garth Ennis and artist Steve Dillon, Vertigo Comics

    2001 - American Gods, novel, Neil Gaiman

    1990 - Good Omens, novel, Terry Pratchett

    1978/1998 - What Dreams May Come, novel/movie, Richard Matheson - novel author

    edit: formatting because ewww

  • TacticsConsort@yiffit.net
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    15 days ago

    It’s pretty modern if you mean popular, although the idea itself is REALLY old.

    Rather than going into specific examples because there are a lot of them (especially in gaming and TV), I’d like to say my piece on cliches.

    Basically, cliches come to exist because the cliche trope is a really good idea.

    “The Butler did it” as a murder mystery trope is a fantastic idea because some people with too much money will use the protection money affords them to mistreat their employees, providing a great motive you can build on to create a great story with relatable morals and characters. It sets up a character with perfect motives, means and a reasonable position of trust to avoid suspicion.

    Similarly, “Hell good, Heaven bad” is a fantastic trope because it lets you step back and analyse things like the negative impacts of religion and how authorities (and the bible) will portray themselves as good regardless of their actual actions. Plus of course there were periods of time where people were told doing virtually anything that didn’t fit into an extremely narrow worldview meant you were going to hell. You know, stuff like basketball and Dungeons and Dragons.

    Now, the problem with cliches is when someone sees a popular idea that’s also a very good idea, but doesn’t understand why it was a good idea. As a result, when they use the idea, it rings hollow at absolute best, and that kind of terrible execution of something that’s already known and popular tends to be especially disappointing. I think the best example is The Hunger Games, which absolutely defined young adult dystopian fiction for years because it showed how the media industry mistreats its workers, and Alleigant, which used a lot of ideas from Hunger Games (and some other things) without actually understanding the ideas.

    (TLDR: Hunger Games has a love triangle as a prominent plot element, but the actual reason is that it’s perpetuated by the media pretty much on pain of death for Katniss so that she can entertain the viewers. By contrast, Alleigant also has a love triangle but the triangle IS the plot element and the author bends over backwards to make it happen despite the fact none of the characters really feel like they’re suitable for it)

    Anyways, cliches aren’t bad but you need to know how, why, and when to use them in order to actually fulfil their potential, and the heaven-hell one you’ve mentioned above is no exception.

  • Smeagol666@lemm.ee
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    10 days ago

    In The Prophecy (1995), Christopher Walken played a corrupted Gabriel who is jealous of humans because God stopped talking to him (?). Viggo Mortensen plays Satan, not exactly sympathetically, but not too unrelatable. Constantine (2005) had a similar sub-plot With Tilda Swinton playing a jealous Gabriel, and of course Neo as Constantine.

  • SattaRIP@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    15 days ago

    This is an element of my novel series’ setting. I’m not trying to advertise it, but if you want more details, and how to access my so far only published book, DM me. I will warn you that only after publishing 1st edition did I realize how important accessibility is. The subject matter is confusing without my old writing style already. The only people who finished it are writers who knew to move on if they didn’t understand something, while my relatives gave up after the first page.

    The way I interpreted demons or devils is based on Islamic myths. “Jinn” or “spirit” is the term I use for all such creatures. “Demons” or “devils” are those antagonized by angels, or are spirits that actively oppose them. According to the myth, humans, jinm, and other intelligent creatures that supposedly lived on earth, all have free will, while angels do not. I don’t see my demons as a manifestation of evil, but people with flaws. Angels, however, I’ve discovered are evil themselves, but believe their collective decisions are completely justifiable. They only appear as good cause they’re overall very good at PR and propaganda.

    As for stuff outside of my work, I’ve been told Lord of Light has a similar vibe to my book. God’s Demon is a book about demons aka fallen angels going to war in hell. I didn’t entirely like kt though and did not read the sequel. I found some of its ideas interesting enough to finjsh the first book at least.

    I’ll reply to this if I think of more. I have one or two artbooks in mind, but I don’t remember their names.

  • Flax@feddit.uk
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    15 days ago

    As a Christian I find it strange that the literal embodiment of evil is celebrated like this. Like people act as if the biblical satan is a good guy

    • dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works
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      15 days ago

      He killed a lot fewer people than biblical God who is supposed to be a good guy if you take it by the letter.

      The “twist” makes a lot of sense TBH.

      • Flax@feddit.uk
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        15 days ago

        Ah yes, the famous video which claims Bart Ehrman is a “pious protestant” and proceeds to make a bunch of faulty arguments 😂 while claiming that there are “secrets that your church is hiding from you” and bringing up basic stuff which I hear mentioned in church all of the time