I will concede, until I look into this further that on face value maybe capital punishment isn’t as effective deterrent as I initially thought. That said, deterrence via capital punishment is one small piece of the problem. So let’s not lose sight of the main point here. Capital punishment literally has irreversible consequences, which means we need laws to be upheld. Just because it’s norm to have wrongful convictions, doesn’t mean we should accept that. That is the ultimate problem we need to go chase, not capital punishment. Focusing on capital punishment is deflection from systemic injustices. So when articles like this come out pointing fingers, my response becomes… “And?”
Right, well in reality they do. Everywhere. And it should be pointed out, your initial comment was that you don’t see a problem with Saudi Arabia executing people in the present; do you think that Saudi Arabia has this perfect justice system already?
Maybe re-read my initial comment stating that I do not believe what Saudi is doing is correct either. A differing opinion =/= implicit agreement with a regime. Wtf?
You know people still die from all three of those fields all the goddamn time, right? Even in spaceflight, the one with by far the fewest operations in which something might happen, we’re fewer than ten years out from the VSS Enterprise crash that killed Michael Alsbury
So that’s it? Society stops trying? What sort of asinine view is that? Fear of failure should not impede progress. This also applies to laws, regulations, legal frameworks etc.
In the real world, executing someone costs more than life imprisonment due to the costs of investigation and appeals. And it’s still not enough to prevent errors.
If we aren’t subsidizing prisons, we can afford it. Although your claim seems far fetched as defacto statement. Costs seem to be variable depending on state, conditions, sentence type etc.
That’s literally just revenge. Do you have any data showing that execution is actually good for the mental health of the families of crimes that, in your opinion, deserve the death penalty?
Says you. Go ask the parents of the kids that died in Uvalde massacre on what they want done with the murderer.
The law values human life by… ending it?
Accountability of our own laws, enforcement and the justice system… it’s thing you know.
Are you sure this is the link you were looking for? It literally has a header saying “There is no proof that the death penalty deters criminals.”
Capital punishment literally has irreversible consequences, which means we need laws to be upheld.
This is no less true without capital punishment. We shouldn’t and don’t stop worrying about wrongful convictions for other punishments.
That is the ultimate problem we need to go chase, not capital punishment.
One of the two is actually possible to solve immediately and basically for free. If you get rid of the death penalty then there is nothing taken away from any other effort to improve the justice system and ongoing miscarriages of justice become less severe. Do you think that everyone gave up worrying about miscarriages of justice in the over 100 countries that don’t have the death penalty?
There are also other points against the death penalty even if you assume it is being used only in a justice system that makes literally no mistakes. How do you know who can and can’t be rehabilitated? Who carries out the executions, and what are the effects on them? Do you actually want the state to hold the power of death over its own citizens?
Maybe re-read my initial comment stating that I do not believe what Saudi is doing is correct either. A differing opinion =/= implicit agreement with a regime. Wtf?
I read it just fine. You said you’re not defending the Saudi royal family. That doesn’t mean that you’re not rejecting criticism of the system. And if you are trying to say that, it is really odd to have started the comment by dimissing the whole article with “And?”
So that’s it? Society stops trying? What sort of asinine view is that? Fear of failure should not impede progress. This also applies to laws, regulations, legal frameworks etc.
No? How the hell did you get to that? Society should recognise that it cannot do these things perfectly and act with that in mind, like by not using something so permanent as execution as a punishment.
If we aren’t subsidizing prisons, we can afford it.
“We can afford it” is a much weaker position than “it will save money over the alternative”, because it permits execution being more expensive. If execution if more expensive - and in the US, it is - then you can put more money towards rehab by not doing it.
Says you. Go ask the parents of the kids that died in Uvalde massacre on what they want done with the murderer.
I’m literally asking you for data to support your point. I’m not sure how the parents of the kids at Uvalde would have a particular opinion on what they want done with the murderer considering that he was shot dead at the scene though.
Accountability of our own laws, enforcement and the justice system… it’s thing you know.
Are you suggesting that it isn’t a thing in countries that don’t have the death penalty? I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make here.
Thanks for the link. Here’s my counter:
https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/five-things-about-deterrence
I will concede, until I look into this further that on face value maybe capital punishment isn’t as effective deterrent as I initially thought. That said, deterrence via capital punishment is one small piece of the problem. So let’s not lose sight of the main point here. Capital punishment literally has irreversible consequences, which means we need laws to be upheld. Just because it’s norm to have wrongful convictions, doesn’t mean we should accept that. That is the ultimate problem we need to go chase, not capital punishment. Focusing on capital punishment is deflection from systemic injustices. So when articles like this come out pointing fingers, my response becomes… “And?”
Maybe re-read my initial comment stating that I do not believe what Saudi is doing is correct either. A differing opinion =/= implicit agreement with a regime. Wtf?
So that’s it? Society stops trying? What sort of asinine view is that? Fear of failure should not impede progress. This also applies to laws, regulations, legal frameworks etc.
If we aren’t subsidizing prisons, we can afford it. Although your claim seems far fetched as defacto statement. Costs seem to be variable depending on state, conditions, sentence type etc.
Says you. Go ask the parents of the kids that died in Uvalde massacre on what they want done with the murderer.
Accountability of our own laws, enforcement and the justice system… it’s thing you know.
Are you sure this is the link you were looking for? It literally has a header saying “There is no proof that the death penalty deters criminals.”
This is no less true without capital punishment. We shouldn’t and don’t stop worrying about wrongful convictions for other punishments.
One of the two is actually possible to solve immediately and basically for free. If you get rid of the death penalty then there is nothing taken away from any other effort to improve the justice system and ongoing miscarriages of justice become less severe. Do you think that everyone gave up worrying about miscarriages of justice in the over 100 countries that don’t have the death penalty?
There are also other points against the death penalty even if you assume it is being used only in a justice system that makes literally no mistakes. How do you know who can and can’t be rehabilitated? Who carries out the executions, and what are the effects on them? Do you actually want the state to hold the power of death over its own citizens?
I read it just fine. You said you’re not defending the Saudi royal family. That doesn’t mean that you’re not rejecting criticism of the system. And if you are trying to say that, it is really odd to have started the comment by dimissing the whole article with “And?”
No? How the hell did you get to that? Society should recognise that it cannot do these things perfectly and act with that in mind, like by not using something so permanent as execution as a punishment.
“We can afford it” is a much weaker position than “it will save money over the alternative”, because it permits execution being more expensive. If execution if more expensive - and in the US, it is - then you can put more money towards rehab by not doing it.
I’m literally asking you for data to support your point. I’m not sure how the parents of the kids at Uvalde would have a particular opinion on what they want done with the murderer considering that he was shot dead at the scene though.
Are you suggesting that it isn’t a thing in countries that don’t have the death penalty? I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make here.
I’ll get back to you when I’m near a computer.