I am searching for a selfhosted and secure (end to end encryption) chat platform for my family (5-20 users), possibly one i can host on a raspi.
Is matrix a good choice, or should i try something else?
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I’ve been using matrix for years to this purpose, but moving to xmpp/prosody now
Can I ask why you’re switching?
No.
Yeah ok. First of all, because I can 😁. I mean z what’s good being an IT nerd if I can’t change stuff when I want?
Jokes aside, I’ve been reading more recently on matrix and looks like there are some security issues in the design of the app/protocol. I’m on mobile now, I’ll look for sources when I’m on pc. Also I don’t like that it is a server centric system (so data is primarily on the server instead of the clients). Also it takes more resources than I was expecting. For less than 10 users I can’t have less than 4gb of ram (on a dedicated debian server, running docker) or it swaps so much it kills the system.
So basically I’m testing out if xmpp is a better system for those issues.
What clients will you use for xmpp/prosody?
Gajim on pc (I use arch btw - well endeavourOS because I can’t be bothered) and don’t remember what on android (there is the full list or clients and capabilities on xmpp.org)
The easiest is to use the clients officially rebranded for Snikket, but there is a good overview on modern clients on https://joinjabber.org
three main ones I’ve seen in this comment section are
• XMPP
• Matrix
• SimpleX
So all of these encrypt the conversations so not even the server admin can access them?
no idea, I’ve just seen these in the comments
XMPP. It just works, requires very little resources, is stable and has decent clients.
I would go with Snikket instead of Prosody if I had been starting now.
Conversations on phones, Dino or Gajim on PCs, plus a conversejs install on the xmpp server, to allow web access when needed.
Conversations is easy for the family to figure out.
This is what my family (and a few friends) use. We have been using it for a while now because it just works. Also, the kids have never complained about using Conversations, or about using it only for us (like if you have that one family member who won’t leave SMS behind - we’re that guy, I guess), and we can make as many channels as we need for the house, the kids, with each kid individually, for our MTG cards, with our couple of friends that use it, etc…
I don’t personally do the hosting, so I can’t speak to that. That’s the hubby’s thing
¯\_(ツ)_/¯XMPP if you are loving the 90’s
IP was invented in the '70s. Sometimes older protocols that work are just fine.
Same with email.
Sick burns
Fine is a relative word
Any particular problems you’re having or have you briefly used Pidgin in 2008 and think nothing has improved since then?
What’s your problem with xmpp?
It is text only for the most part
It’s not. Emoji reactions, stickers, audio-messages, audio/video calls are all supported by modern XMPP clients with smaller caveats depending on the client.
E2E is complicated, if you self-host for a group, having TLS and encrypting data at rest (storage) may be enough. Get a threat model. That being said, I would recommend snikket.org which is a superset of extensions over XMPP which is the open source IM that was the base of almost every app out there. Matrix and Rocket are both alright too. Depends too on your resources, synapse requires too much RAM (or so I heard)
Yes, XMPP with proper TLS on the server side and Conversations or one of its forks (preferably fetched from F-Droid) using OMEMO encryption should be good enough. If you are brave or paranoid, give Tox a try: https://tox.chat/
Except tox’s graphical clients aren’t maintained anymore
Ah, docker-mailserver and delta.chat could also be great for your case!!
Still no suggestion that has wide cross platform and it’s just simple . Matrix has that all . So for now I choose matrix and clients
Lol, Snikket/xmpp has been suggested multiple times, and it is as good if not better regarding “wide cross platform” support. To get the same with Matrix you basically have to use a web-client or Electron, while XMPP has very efficient native clients.
just looked it up and couldn’t find a decent client for ios. There was Monal but it looks more like a draft rather than a finished application. Things don’t even have padding or margins. The snikket one I won’t even mention, you can’t expect people to use something that gives them visual discomfort.
I originally suggested Monal to my friend (who is quite into iOS and really appreciates a well designed application) and she found the same, but then she tried Siskin, and was happy enough to use it to this day.
Ideally, SimpleX (https://simplex.chat/). Session is nice, but less secure (https://getsession.org/). Delta Chat (https://delta.chat/en/) will be secure enough, and the most familiar visually. Lastly, XMPP is a great solution as well.
What makes session less secure? This is the first I’ve heard of it.
I am suspicious of it because you pretty much cannot host a node. Well, you can - but you’d have to deposit an INSANE amount of money (like $2k or something). While Simplex, even though I do have a concern with its initial centralization by the power of default, is decidedly easy to selfhost.
Session has user IDs, the so-called “sessions”.
Simplex is the first platform I’ve heard of that doesn’t use IDs (which doesn’t make much sense to me, practically, but sure). So would you say everything is less secure than simplex?
I say it depends on what you are looking for. Depends on your “threat model” – among other things.
For example, if you are looking for something more private (smaller chance on linking identities with digital footprint, smaller chance on identifying a person, etc), I suggest SimpleX. They also have a great protocol. Their white paper is worth reading as well. But it might be a little challenging for non-tech people. And the thing is still in development.
If you don’t mind Session’s IDs (after all you can still store them somewhere and change them), it’s a good one. The protocol is promising, and they have a nice white paper. Unlike SimpleX, it’s much easier to set up for a non-tech person, although it’s also in development.
XMPP (Conversations, Monal, etc) rely on a well-known technology, and it is stable. And the interface doesn’t scream “hacking”, " techy" etc.
Lastly, Delta Chat is also a nice project, with a well-known record. The interface looks super convenient and familiar. And the functionality is feature-rich enough in case you want to doe something special.
I would say the thing with IDs (or absence of IDs) is yet another layer that ensures privacy and security. But all of the apps are secure enough. Even Signal is secure enough if you don’t mind exposing your phone number.
I guess the real question is about convenience. That is, knowing about SimpleX, Session, XMPP, and DeltaChat, which one is convenient, private enough, and secure enough for your particular case.
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Sorry, didn’t mean to.
I know it’s not self hosted but why not Signal? Matrix is demanding on a SBC and your family would probably get the ‘unable to decrypt message, please re-verify keys’ error that happens in encrypted matrix group chats and Element does not have the best UI especially if you want your grandma to use it.
Very unlikely by now, these issues have been adressed a while ago.
What’s your source on the reverify thing? I use matrix a lot, and this hasn’t been an issue I ever experienced anymore since they introduced cross-signing a couple years ago.
Same goes for the common clients such as element. It has been clunky in the past, but after the past major overhauls ( also years ago now) everything has been silky smooth for me, if not better than others. The one thing left I prefer from Signal is the one-time photo share.
Matrix is great, clients are great too, only the server part still is annoyingly complicated and messy. Would only recommend that for tinkerers, on that case it’s a great path to learning about the complexity of addressing lots of security concerns that others gloss over.
Edit: to add - there’s a reason why the French government and the German military decided to build their secure internal IM infrastructure on Matrix. Obviously they are hosting their own private network, but if the concept is good enough for European government and military, it is an indicator for quality especially in terms of security and privacy.
i had slightly issues with the failed to decrypt on element, just on a chat where the other person left
I just have my kids, wife, close friends and in-laws on SimpleX.
Sure, some of them use mainstream stuff as well, but if they want to reach me, that’s their only option.
Matrix is a pretty good choice for self-hosted. The reason I don’t do it is because I’ve become lazy lately.
Matrix has issues and can be a pain
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Also https://conduit.rs/
For me you can try to host a SimpleX server and then connect to it (with SimpleX it is pretty as much secure to run its one server than use a public one).
Or maybe use XMPP but try to use a good encryption protocol. This option is great in term of power efficiency, XMPP would run great on a RasPI
Did you have trouble setting up XFTP one? SMP was fine but XFTP seemed to have some error in the systemd settings provided in the manual.
matrix should cover everything you need with the added bonus that you can chat with people from other instances
I just wish it was more secure and performant
You could try Jami. It’s peer to peer, so essentially any participants are self-hosting it. Its E2E encrypted, supports group messaging, voice and video calling, has easily ‘linkable’ mobile and desktop apps for all platforms and requires no email address or phone number to use. It’s also the only messenger I’m aware of which is endorsed by the Free Software Foundation. I highly recommend it 👌
Rocket chat is like slack but FOSS… haven’t tried it myself but it could be something
Not FOSS anymore. More like open core these days.
Simplex chat would work
However, I wouldn’t host on a Raspberry Pi or even at home for that matter. Get a VPS and host it there. Linode even has a one click app install for Simplex Chat
Why not host at home?
To much risk and you won’t have as much uptime.
Whats the risk? My uptime is pretty good and I host from home.
Matrix is good, secure, very versatile, Foss, and easy to use, but I think not easy to set up or manage.
Depends. If you use an intermediary layer like Yunohost/Cloudron/etc. or now your way around docker it’s manageable easily.
