All we have are scriptures and texts that could have been a series of meme that built/improved from eachother but lost the common knowledge between the generations that it was fictional.
A lot of what was written about Jesus was done hundreds of years when he allegedly lived, but done in a way that appears to be written at the same time he was alive. Do he’s really more of a shit post that people thought was real.
A fair bit of the old testament was written the same way. In fact one of the most prolific “oracles” of the old testament got everything right, right up until he was actually making predictions, because he was writing in 400 BCE about a time that covered 800-600 BCE, as though he were writing it in 800 BCE.
ETA: dates made up as I don’t remember exactly when he was writing
Chuck has a great shot at becoming the messiah of a new religion then cause the holy book of Norrisism has already been written, it’s called Chuck Norris Facts.
Chuck norris could be the second coming of Jesus, and here you are, writing blasphemy
I always thought of prophets as particularly charismatic mentally ill people. Jesus may not have set out to start a cult, but like, delusions of grandeur and distorted self-image in someone charismatic and intelligent usually ends in a cult. In his lifetime they were basically anarchist hippies (at least as recorded by the bible), but like all cults, today the center has rotted and it’s just toxic brainwashing.
This sort of thing happens all the time, good intentions getting twisted over time.
Iirc the reason you’re not allowed to depict Muhammad, for example, was because Muhammad didn’t want pictures of to be used to worship him. He didn’t want to be deified basically.
Cut to today and his followers will literally kill anyone that even tries, even those outside of the religion, due to their worship of Muhammad, something that he clearly never would have wanted. It literally goes against the reason he had the rule in the first place.
The “prophet” Isaiah is a good example:
Isaiah 20:1-4
1 In the year that Tartan came unto Ashdod, (when Sargon the king of Assyria sent him,) and fought against Ashdod, and took it;
2 At the same time spake the Lord by Isaiah the son of Amoz, saying, Go and loose the sackcloth from off thy loins, and put off thy shoe from thy foot. And he did so, walking naked and barefoot.
3 And the Lord said, Like as my servant Isaiah hath walked naked and barefoot three years for a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia;
4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
Jesus could come back from the dead, but could death come back from Chuck Norris?
Based on my understanding of non-religiously biased history, the character of Jesus Christ is an amalgamation of many Jewish prophets who preached a generally similar message.
One of the interesting things that sticks out to me personally that lends credence to the idea that the Bible is just kind of a bunch of half-remembered stories all mashed together is Barabbas- the guy that Pontius Pilate supposedly pardoned instead of Jesus.
In some versions, Barabbas is given the first name “Jesus”
And “Barabbas” could potentially come from “bar abba” in Hebrew meaning “son of the father”
He was imprisoned and sentenced to execution due to taking part in an insurrection against the Roman empire.
The two characters- “Jesus, son of the father, and sentenced to death for sedition” and “Jesus, son of God, sentenced to die for claiming to be king of the Jews” sound a hell of a lot like they’re referring to the same dude to me.
That’s either one of the biggest coincidences in all of history, or someone heard two different versions of the same story and mashed them together.
Or maybe it’s just sort of a 1st century version of the saying that “one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom-fighter.”
Man…
What if this whole time the Bible was really just a story about how you need a Malcolm and a Martin to enact meaningful social change, if the ones in power treat both with equal heavy handed violence, the people’s only choice is Malcolm?
I mean, Hitler had an underling named Himmler. Sometimes coincidences happen.
This is pretty cool, but I’m struggling to find anything else that makes this claim using my Google fu. Can you help point me at something I can read about this?
Where did you get it?
I’m not too sure where I first picked up the idea, for some reason I think it may have been one of the videos on the Useful Charts YouTube channel, but in general it all kind of fits together to me, and I of course kind of put my own little bit of spin into it myself. Unfortunately I don’t have exact sources to cite directly to where I first heard this theory put together.
For starters you can go to the Bible itself with Mathew 27:16-17
16 At that time they had a well-known prisoner whose name was Jesus Barabbas. 17 So when the crowd had gathered, Pilate asked them, “Which one do you want me to release to you: Jesus Barabbas, or Jesus who is called the Messiah?”
I misspoke in my earlier comment, and I edited it accordingly, the language would have been Aramaic, which is what most scholars agree is the language Jesus mostly spoke, although it is a pretty closely related language to Hebrew. I speak neither Hebrew nor Aramaic so I kind of just have to take it on faith that some of the people I’ve seen discussing this online have some idea what they’re talking about. You can kind of piece it together from some common bits of Hebrew “bar mitzvah” literally translates to something like “son of the commandments” and I believe in modern Hebrew, the word for father in “av” with “aba” being commonly used in some places/cultures.
There’s also some that would say it comes from “bar rabban” (may be misspelling that) meaning “son of the teacher” instead of father, which you can compare to “Rabbi”
This comes from an era when people didn’t really have official last names, depending on who you asked, Jesus could have been known by quite a few different names, Jesus the carpenter, Jesus son of Joseph/mary, the son of God, the teacher, the guy from Nazareth, the religious weirdo, the insurrectionist, of the house of David, etc.
I believe in modern Hebrew “ben” is more often used as the “son of” prefix. And those sort of patronymic names are pretty common in semitic languages, in Arabic you’ve probably heard a few people with “bin” in their name. It’s basically the same idea as Irish/Scottish names that begin with mc/Mac/O’, or names that end in “son”
As for Barabbas having been involved in an insurrection, going back to the bible we have Mark 15:7
A man called Barabbas was in prison with the insurrectionists who had committed murder in the uprising.
Israel experienced more than a few different Jewish uprisings/revolts/riots/insurrections/whatever name you wanted to call it. They weren’t exactly happy to be under Roman rule, and there were always a bunch of different political or religious movements trying to do something about it and usually not having much success. It’s not unlikely that Jesus is sort of a composite of several different folks making trouble for the Romans.
I’m no scholar, my knowledge on this doesn’t really go a whole lot deeper than what I’ve said here, and I can’t say how widespread this particular little conspiracy theory is in academic circles, I won’t say that I’m totally sold on it myself, I’m very open to someone else saying differently, but it’s something to consider, and it looks like a hell of a coincidence to just be a coincidence to me
Very interesting! As a Hebrew speaker, I can confirm “bar” is being used to indicate “son of” but not in spoken language, just in some exoressions which originate from Aramic, and some surnames (son of…) Btw, there is an Israeli actor with the surname “Barabba”, who mentioned in an interview it’s a name going back many generations.
I was hoping a hebrew-speaker would chime in to confirm that I at least wasn’t too far off-base with that part. Talking about languages I don’t know is always a little uneasy for me because every language has its own weird quirks and something is always lost in translation.
You weren’t kidding…
I looked everywhere and scoured the Dark Web and managed to only find this after great struggle:
There exist several versions of this figure’s name in gospel manuscripts, most commonly simply Biblical Greek: Bαραββᾶς, romanized: Barabbās without a first name. However the variations (Biblical Greek: Ἰησοῦς Bαῤῥαββᾶν, romanized: Iēsoûs Bar-rhabbân, Biblical Greek: Ἰησοῦς Bαραββᾶς, romanized: Iēsoûs Barabbâs, Biblical Greek: Ἰησοῦς Bαῤῥαββᾶς, romanized: Iēsoûs Bar-rhabbâs) found in different manuscripts of the Matthew 27:16–17 give this figure the first name “Jesus”, making his full name “Jesus Barabbas” or “Jesus Bar-rhabban”, and giving him the same first, given name as Jesus.[b] The Codex Koridethi seems to emphasise Bar-rhabban as composed of two elements in line with a patronymic Aramaic name.[17][18] These versions, featuring the first name “Jesus” are considered original by a number of modern scholars.[19][20] Origen seems to refer to this passage of Matthew in claiming that it must be a corruption, as no sinful man ever bore the name “Jesus” and argues for its exclusion from the text.[21] He however does not account for the high priest Biblical Greek: Ἰάσων, romanized: Iásōn from 2 Maccabees 4:13, whose name seems to transliterate the same Aramaic name into Greek, as well as other bearers of the name Jesus mentioned by Josephus.[17] It is possible that scribes when copying the passage, driven by a reasoning similar to that of Origen, removed this first name “Jesus” from the text to avoid dishonor to the name of the Jesus whom they considered the Messiah.[22]
Etymology
Of the two larger categories in which transmitted versions of this name fall Biblical Greek: Bαῤῥαββᾶν, romanized: Bar-rhabbân, seems to represent Jewish Palestinian Aramaic: בּר רַבָּן, romanized: Bar Rabbān, lit. ‘Son of our Rabbi/Master’, while Biblical Greek: Bαραββᾶς, romanized: Barabbâs appears to derive ultimately from Jewish Palestinian Aramaic: בּר אַבָּא , romanized: Bar ʾAbbā lit. ‘Son of ʾAbbā/[the] father’, a patronymic Aramaic name.[17] However, ʾAbbā has been found as a personal name in a 1st-century burial at Giv’at ha-Mivtar. Additionally it appears fairly often as a personal name in the Gemara section of the Talmud, a Jewish text dating from AD 200–400.[23]
I’m not sure why, but a lot of people seem to have a really hard time looking up information about stuff from the Bible. I remember probably about a year ago not too long after I first joined Lemmy commenting on a thread from some guy whose sister fell into some fundamentalist Christian flat earther bullshit and he was trying to figure out where she got her info from and said that he couldn’t find anything about “the firmament”
It’s on like the first page of the Bible. And just googling “firmament” will get you plenty of good sources about the firmament and what it’s supposed to be.
I know from first-hand experience that I have often heard some information from somewhere, but for the heck of me I can’t remember where. So I can often not find sources for something I was sure was true. This happens a lot to me.
It is obviously intentionally done to mimic the ritual sacrifice of the two goats on Yom Kippur, the day of atonement. Two goats were presented to the high priest, one was chosen by casting lots to be sacrificed on the altar and the other was cast into the wilderness, pruifying the people of Israel of their sins. In the story, Jesus plays the role of both goats.
All of that is speculation since we have no way of knowing what actually happened. The only thing we know for certain is that a lot of people back then wrote a lot of bat shit lunacy.
hell of a lot like they’re referring to the same dude to me.
Brothers. jehova and jacob, born on the same day. Pontius pilate’s choice was ever the more cruel.
Then if Barabbas really was pardoned, to some of his acquaintances who didn’t know the pardon, he was sent off to die, but then showed up later in the weekend.
Finally a shower thought that isn’t just trying to redefine words or concepts! Thank you!
The thing is that while Jesus could walk on water, Chuck Norris could swim thru land. Which one is more impressive?
I mean, yeah…
The Bible wasn’t some dude writing stuff down. It’s a bunch of dudes over centuries writing stuff down, and doesn’t include everything.
It was commone with the pre-christian religions for myths to work like that, and as Christianity co-opted different parts of those earlier religions to make conversion easier, people.kept making up stories about Jesus or saints like people used to make up stories about Zeus or Hercules.
If Jesus’s 20s weren’t conspicuously absent, it prob would have been pretty close to Chuck Norris. Just because those stories didn’t stick around, doesn’t mean they never existed.
The first person to coin the word meme was Richard Dawkins in his book ‘the selfish gene’. He also postulates in the same chapter that religion is a particular form of a meme. So you’re one hundred percent correct!
I figure it was an argument of “my legendary tribal chief was SOOO great, he…”
Which led into a conversation of “Which super hero would win?”.
My tribes legendary chief was so great, he made bread, wine, and fish, just when everyone needed it… He is so wonderful they tried to kill him, but he came back three days later, not even sick.
It’s because he’s part super hero, you should hear about his dad. People were so loyal to his dad they’d almost sacrifice their own children to him. He was so great he’ll save us, you’ll see.
The Chuck Norris meme isn’t an antique, it’s something we’re all ashamed of being part of after finding out he’s a crazy person.
Pfft you might be, that just makes it funnier to me. Chuck Norris is an actor and a white guy who knows karate. That’s already like the height of unseriousness, add poo-brained conservatism and it’s comedy gold. Like have you ever watched an interview with him. He is 100% that guy who talks about his hands being registered weapons but has never been in a fight as an adult. The point of those memes was that he was a washed up joke.
Isn’t that how cats inserted themselves into human society?
I’ve always had this weird thought that religions sprout up when a grifter finds a fictional book buried somewhere that no ones heard off and builds a cult around it with themselves as the center piece.
Isn’t that Scientology in a nutshell?
What if we live in a simulation and all of humanity’s historical religions were real, with the key term being “were”?
At some point the simulation owner got rid of them (maybe out of necessity or maybe they just got bored and wanted something new) but kept all the written and verbal history associated with them. Literally just deleted everything we would now consider “mythical” and called it a day.
That’s why we don’t have skeletons but we do have stories. They just ripped all the assets and scripts out and now reality throws a fuckton of errors whenever a particle interacts with the infinitely small, now-undefined space that used to be a minotaur.
I plan to think about this way too hard next time I get baked.
Religion now throws a null pointer exception?
Yep. It’s part of the reason why reality seems so unhinged right now. There are so many of them stacking up at this point that the simulation can’t run at full speed anymore, and it’s causing dialog and personality bugs due to an unforseen interaction between framerate and player mechanics.
Jesus was so cool
No wonder there are so many Christians
