I think there’s a problem with the ‘C only’ devs refusing to be accomodating to the Rust developers. Instead of being stubborn; why not provide them what is needed and help the Rust team learn how to maintain what is needed themselves?
None of the reasons I’ve seen mentioned are legitimate reasons for refusing to at least help them a few times, and helping them to learn how to do the onerous task themselves so they can keep it off the main plate for too long.
C devs do not need to learn Rust to provide critical information; they need only be present and cooperative with Rust devs to help them find, convert, and localize data structures for Rust use. They can stand to sit and pair code with their Rust Dev counterparts long enough to teach a Rust Dev counterpart how and what they need to look for in C code. It’s not that big of an ask, and it’s not something that really is a large ask. Provide the bindings for a short period of time, and work on training a team of Rust Devs to maintain the bindings.
That way both sides are stepping up to meet the others and the data isn’t being sat on by the C-only Devs.
Absolutely correct!
And of course the conclusion is
If working with other open source developers is too hard, they could always fork the project.
Just fork it 🤓
It definitely feels like a knee jerk reaction, but there would be some merit to it: The Rust language feels apt to implement a kernel with. If I remember correctly that’s what Redox is trying to accomplish? https://redox-os.org/
“I am no visionary but if Linux doesn’t internalize this, I’m afraid some other kernel will do to it what it did to Unix.”
Linux has no owner, really, aside from Linus. How can IBM wrangle a reversal in the sale of it back to Novell who has no more devs to maintain it - because they sold it - and they put it on the shelf for 20 years until it’s dead?
I don’t get how this is like how Unix was killed; at all.
From an outsiders perspective, a lot of the “politics” seemed to be that Rust devs would try to change behavior they saw as bugs and Linus would have to be like: “it doesn’t matter, we don’t break userspace functionality with changes we make to the kernel! [not a direct quote, but a paraphrase]”
Devs not wanting to learn Rust is something I’m not at all equipped to comment on since I don’t know C or Rust (some C++, python, Powershell and a few other scripting languages though) so I can’t say how difficult that transition would be, but at the very least it seems like they must not be convinced of its need.
Anyone with more knowledge able to chime in on if it seems this is a self induced problem on their end or genuinely something the other kernel devs are being difficult to work with?
ETA: My memory of this seems to be completely incorrect! Sorry for the misinformation!
Do you have an example where Rust devs wanted to break backwards compatibility? The complaints I’ve seen were mostly “I don’t want to learn another language, so your Rust stuff will be broken by us”
In fairness, “I don’t want to maintain bindings for a language I never intend to use” is a perfectly reasonable position.
The typical answer here is for the language evangelist to implement and maintain the bindings, and accept the responsibility of keeping them in sync with the upstream (or understand that they will be broken for however long it takes for another community member to update them).
Which is exactly the position that the Rust for Linux devs have understood and accepted for themselves, and yet they still get yelled at (literally, in public, on recordings) by C Linux devs for existing.
Oh and they get snidely told that introducing the Rust language must be a mistake because suggestions to introduce other languages to the kernel turned out to be mistakes and obviously Rust is the same as all those other languages according to C developers who, by their own admission, have never used or learned anything about Rust beyond a superficial glance at some of its syntax (again this was recorded from a public event).
Ted Ts’o was way out of line in that conference and was clearly channeling his inner ca. 2001 Torvalds.
I think Rust is a better path forward for a majority of the kernel/driver code maintained currently, but it is definitely going to take time for it to gain a foothold. I also think there is some condescension on both sides that is completely unjustified and needs to stop.
The hardline C devs that don’t want to learn Rust need to accept that at some point they will have to either adapt or pass the torch, and that no amount of whining or bitching in public forums is going to change that.
The Rust devs that are getting upset because people are “attacking” their favorite language need to accept that there will be substantial and impassioned resistance to making broad language changes to a set of projects that have existed for decades. It would be an uphill battle for any language to try to supersede C in the kernel; this is not a condemnation or attack on Rust or its zealots, it’s a matter of momentum and greybeard stubbornness.
A quick search and I’m not able to find anything, so either I’m not using the right search terms or I’m completely off the mark and am mixing up my Tovald Rants.
If I mixed that up, I’m so sorry for spreading FUD!
