Alue42

if something doesn’t have a concept of ethics, that doesn’t make its unethical actions unethical. If it did, teaching ethics would be unnecessary

Have you taken an Ethics class? You don’t learn one set of rules for life and then you are done (boy, life would be so easy if that were the case!!). You learn Kantian philosophy, Consequentialism, Deontology, Utilitarianism…just to name a few. You learn how philosophy comes in to play and how to recognize the patterns. Knowing these can relate to understanding where someone (or in this discussion, the bear/fox/deer/etc) places it’s moral compass to better understand it’s viewpoint. The bear may not understand ethics, but it still has a moral compass that you can tease out.

So the question remains: What power holds these species’ moral compasses? Does a bear/fox/deer/etc hold their own moral compass? If so, how do we know what they consider to be moral in order for these actions to be morally questionable? Or are you holding your morals up to them?

I truly have never heard that response!

What power holds these species’ moral compasses? For many people it’s their god or their religion (which could be Gaia/earth), for others it’s others around them, for others including me it’s themselves.
Does a bear/fox/deer/etc hold their own moral compass? If so, how do we know what they consider to be moral in order for these actions to be morally questionable? Do they hold themselves to your morals (ie, others comparing themselves to those around them), or are you holding your morals up to them?

So the bears, foxes, deer, egrets, etc are also being unethical and should be damned? Because they absolutely can live without meat but chose to hunt.

I was showing that your statements are incorrect. That hunting is not a necessity because we are omnivores. But it’s not a necessity for the bear either, they are also omnivores.

Therefore, is hunting off the table for us? Both of your statements “eat meat to survive” and “eat x exotic animal” have been proven extreme false hyperboles that don’t relate to the question at hand.

Ok, but what you said tried to toe the line while actually using absolute hyperboles to prove neither point.

Keep in mind we live in a world where it’s normal to go from “we need meat to survive” to “let’s eat X exotic animal that absolutely doesn’t have to be the one to sustain us”.

We actually don’t need meat to survive. While there are species that are indeed obligate carnivores or ones that whose digestive system is more efficient with meat proteins, we are omnivores. It’s even been shown that body builders and athletes can sustain themselves on a vegan diet.

“let’s eat X exotic animal that absolutely doesn’t have to be the one to sustain us”.

While some people get a thrill out of eating the highly illegal species, turning new species into a new food item can be a boon to conservation. Lionfish never used to live in the Florida Keys, then one popped up, then a handful, then all the sudden they were taking over whole reefs and the native species had no where to live. There was no way to get rid of them, they hide under the outcroppings of the reefs, they can’t be caught on a line, no gillnetting, they have to be speared which is NOT easy as government operation or some sort of eradication program. Finally, it caught on how delicious they are and the area started teaching people how to handle the spines and the filet around the venom glands in order to cook them, and it took off like crazy and everyone was in the water to get them! The population hasn’t declined, but it’s somewhat leveled so the local marine species can at least get a toehold again.

And this isn’t the only species with a story like this. So taking on exotic species (plant and animal) in your diet can indeed be a good thing for conservation.

But, the point is I asked if hunting was off the table for us as a species despite it occurring in nature, and if so was it due to our intellect? You responded with hyperboles on both ends that don’t provide an answer.

I just tried looking for you, and the most up to date I could find was for 2017. That’s disappointing, but slightly out of date is better than nothing.

The only reason it hasn’t caught on is because they are very difficult to catch (spear) and even more difficult to prepare (venom glands). They are unbelievably delicious, but even so, I’m not going to trust a chef a don’t know to be sure he didn’t pierce one of those glands while preparing it. I’ll trust myself or one of my friends that I no for 100% certain can do it right. So even though a handful of restaurants were offering it in the Keys and Miami, you’ll really see people catching it themselves and preparing it just to be sure.

He’s my conundrum with that. Other species will not go after animals that are close to death. I’ve worked with a lot of wild animals. The thinking is that if it is dead or close to death they will leave it to the scavengers since they don’t want to risk contracting whatever killed it. Bears, eagles, so many animals are going to hunt healthy fish - bears specifically go after the salmon about to spawn and pass on their genes.

Hunting is part of nature, and not just with fish.

I understand the issue with industrialized/commercial kills, but is hunting also off the table in your train of thought? I mean this as a genuine question, not an attack, I know tone of voice is often lost through text.

Is hunting/fishing off the table for us as the species with higher intellect? We do not have as robust immune systems as the scavengers of nature do, so waiting for things to be in a position near death is worrisome to me. Whereas hunting/fishing (again, not the industrialized practice, but individual) is how conservation of species was born by developing species limits and it’s how some species levels continue to be kept in check (for instance, invasive lion fish in the US South East)

We have also invented ways to do it more sustainably, and even have handy wallet sized Sustainable Seafood Lists for each region of the US to make sure you make sustainable choices when eating at restaurants or purchasing at the market
Seafood Watch Guides

Fish can and do eat you

You are deliberately not answering the question.

“If every person that ate fish was out there…” exactly - they purchase fish caught commercially because either they don’t know how to catch their own fish or they don’t have access to catch their own fish (access either with time, money, or physically). Commercial fishing solves that by precisely doing it “at scale a lot more efficiently” as you pointed out and ships the fish to where people will purchase it.

I didn’t ask “what if everyone went out and did it themselves”

I asked your thoughts on people who DO fish for themselves, or those using traditional fishing practices.

OP didn’t specify commercial fishing. What about traditional fishing practices, or a singular fisher catching for himself/family?

“whoops, there’s too much milk left over, I’ll just add some cereal”

“Oh no, now my milk is finished, but I still have cereal left, I’ll just add some more milk”

“Well now I have extra milk again, time for more cereal”

I see where you’re going…

Where I grew up it was k-2: primary, 3-5: elementary, 6-8: middle, 9-12: high.

Where I moved after college had primary, intermediate, and high; elementary, intermediate, and high; elementary, junior high, and high; all combinations, but I didn’t know the grade levels.

“left” is an encompassing umbrella term. You can’t complain when you ask where the lemon squares are and people say “we didn’t bring lemon squares” and your reply is “but you said you were bringing dessert!” Dessert=left in this analogy and lemon squares=tankie/communist.

I often remind people, also, that politics is an entire sphere of ideologies, and if you are only looking Left and Right you are missing and incredible amount of viewpoints and information.

In another comment, you compared coming up a viewing and fitting into a niche like looking over a menu when you could have had steak the whole time. You’ve forgotten that steak isn’t everyone’s favorite meal. And even for those that it is, there are still infinite ways to enjoy it: marinated and grilled, sauteed with mushrooms and gravy, seared with goat cheese and spinach, and so many more. Additionally, what sides, what appetizer, what dessert, what wine pairing… All the different combinations you can think of are how many different combinations of viewpoints there are. There’s no one-size-fits-all, even for people that call themselves the same thing.

And just because you have one perfect “meal” at one time in your life doesn’t mean that you won’t have a chance of taste later on, either as you learn new things, world events change, a New life stage in your personal life changes what you feel is important, or anything else, and that’s OK.