Recently finally gotten around to playing Lies of P, and I’ve been enjoying my time a lot - I’d probably put it right between Sekiro and Bloodborne for my favourite Soulslikes. The boss fights have been pretty cool throughout the playthrough. However, the last few bosses, especially Laxasia and Simon, have been kicking my teeth in, so I used a summon to kill both easily.
Now, when people complain about players not playing “the right way” - aka bashing your head in for 10 days straight, using melee only, no summons, magic, cheese, whatever - I’m the first to say that it doesn’t matter how people play the game as long as they enjoy it and that they don’t have to prove they’re “more” of a gamer than someone who did adhere to these self-imposed rules.
After finishing these two fights (I’m at the Nameless Puppet now🫠), however, I kind of feel like I’ve robbed myself of a “worthy” victory because it was soo much easier with the summons than without them. Like, 30+ tries without and basically first try with a summon. It kind of took away the whole challenge and doesn’t feel like I’ve actually beaten them.
Ultimately, thinking that I’ve spent so much time learning their patterns and trying to kill them “the proper way”, it doesn’t feel as bad since I had grown frustrated quite a bit by the end, so I just wanted an easy out. Still nagging on my mind.
What are y’all thoughts on this subject? Is it warranted that I feel like I robbed myself of a proper victory? Should I just get over it? Anything similar happen to you?
Thanks!
Edit: Just remembered that I used summons quite a lot more often than initially thought. I used a summon for both Rabbit Gang fights as well as the Puppet King and the Green Swamp Monster too.
The Rabbit Gang fight felt quite cool like that, especially the first one, since it felt like a real brawl of two equal parties. I consistently got to phase 2 of both Puppet King and Swamp Monster easily but always ended up dying quickly, so the summons took the edge off quite a bit.
Edit 2: Beat Nameless Puppet, probably got a bad ending with Gepetto dying and calling me a useless puppet. But idgaf - I beat that fucker 😎
Just play the games the way it feels more fun to you. All that should matter about how you play is “are you having fun?” If the answer is yes then you’re playing the game “correctly”
The thing is, it didn’t feel fun getting beaten repeatedly, even though I’m used to it having platinumed Bloodborne and Sekiro, but it also didn’t feel satisfying to win using a summon. Then again, maybe I shouldn’t base my entire enjoyment on an arbitrary restriction and goal that I want to attain.
I think your internal conflict is valid, but I think it’s okay to let yourself off the hook from squeezing the maximum satisfaction out of a game all the time.
You felt like each of those bosses reached the point of “not being fun anymore”, and you took action to move on and find the fun again.
Likewise, using a summon doesn’t invalidate all the hard work you did already do to learn the patterns. The fights became so easy with the summon BECAUSE the work you put in prior.
You’re over-thinking it, my dude
I think that’s what I needed to hear. Thanks my guy ❤️ Appreciate it
Cheers mate 🍻
The thing is, it didn’t feel fun getting beaten repeatedly, even though I’m used to it having platinumed Bloodborne and Sekiro, but it also didn’t feel satisfying to win using a summon.
Why not? Genuine question, what about it made you not enjoy it? Did it end up feeling too easy?
Yea, I guess. There’s just something unsatisfying to killing the boss in a single attempt with a summoned NPC that pulls the aggro constantly, leaving you open to going haywire on the boss without real repercussions
If they get friends, I get friends.
Fuck every last person who gatekeeps the way someone uses intentional game mechanics.
I cheesed the game using throwables and summons and I absolutely loved it. Without those I would’ve been frustrated and spent quality time on ignoring the tools that help me finish the game and compensating with my hard labour.
Feel that! I mostly stick to “traditional” gameplay personally because I like it that way the most, but it’s absolutely hilarious to see what people concoct when they’re creative. I’ve watched a couple cheese videos for Laxasia, for example, and outside of people like Ongbal who make any boss look like a clown, there were a lot that were using the Legion Arm or consumables a lot and to great effect. Pretty awesome, really
Yup! In the latest friends per second podcast the podcasters were talking about how From Software games (tbh Lies of P is a love letter to bloodborne) don’t explicitly give you a difficulty modifier but the games themselves have several things/objects/weapons that can modify the game difficulty for you. It’s like the setting is hidden within the game, rather than on the menu.
This idea really clicked with me. So if gamers want an easy mode, they use the “cheeses”, if they want hard mode, they ignore that, and if they want to change difficulty, they simply equip/unequip the cheese.
You said it yourself: you had spent a lot of time learning the patterns, but had grown frustrated by that time. Basically you’d have two choices
- what you did, and finish the fight easily using summons (which is easy only because you already spent a lot of time learning the boss)
- decide to do it without summon, and maybe have the satisfaction to win without help, or submit yourself to too much frustration, rendering the victory meaningless because at the end it had become a chore, and not fun at all.
At the end of the day, the most important element is to have fun. But even with summons, victory is never underserved, those games are still brutal.
People who treat single player/pve games as if they’re competitive hobbies are really weird. Their talk of “honor” and of not using mechanics (that are in the game to be used, because the developers want you to use them) because they’re “shameful” is extremely silly.
In other words: fuck the gatekeepers, do what makes YOU feel good.
I play elden ring with no points in str, end, or arcane because I play like a magic user. It may be the wrong way but it sure aint the easy way. Its actually sorta funny watching a walkthrough because yes some things challenging to the guy doing the walkthrough meta like is paltry for me but some things that are paltry for him are horrendous for me.
There are a couple linear places where it’s real rough because enemies eat up so many hits cumulatively that you just run out of FP, even with all your flasks blue. And one or two bosses that get close to that too.
Also the damage is spikier than other classes IMO.
Early on fp is rough, but at this point I have 35 mind at this point so fp is not to much a concern. Especially with light rings and the ancestral axe/talisman and the new fp regent talisman. My low end is killing me though given how one or two rolls with many bosses will not cut it along with low poise. I may have to bite the bullet and respec that.
So I haven’t played this game, but I think what you’re feeling makes sense.
I think for many players, myself included, they aren’t looking to have their teeth kicked in. They also aren’t looking for a walk in the park, though. Unfortunately, many games’ handicap systems (handicap meaning a mechanism that gives the player an added advantage) make it very all or nothing. It’s either super difficult, or braindead easy. I’m not saying that no one enjoys playing a game that is basically on rails and un-failable, some definitely do, but I think it’s reasonable to say many players want to be met at their edge.
The problem as a designer is everyone has a different edge, and the edge won’t even be the same for different activities when it’s the same player playing. You might get frustrated by a boss, but absolutely love meticulously exploring an environment, or thinking through a challenging logic puzzle. Others are the reverse.
I don’t really have a point to this comment, but I’m a game designer and find this stuff really interesting. It’s a very hard problem to solve but I think what you’re feeling is completely understandable. If I were you I would feel a little robbed, too!
It’s a tough balance. I feel like FromSoft, and Neowiz for Lies of P I think, have found a good balance of all these systems in play, however. It shows that FS were less experienced when looking at Dark Souls 1 when comparing it to their newer games, but they’ve made the games progressively better.
Soulslike games are personal challenges. So whatever makes sense to you. but default if it is in the game then it’s fair game. If you want to do a run where you don’t use summons or limit yourself in some other way then that’s cool too. I like doing SL1 challenges. I’m terrible at it but it is fun to see how much i improve
Games should be fun. If you are having fun, you’re playing it right. If you are using a feature they put into the game, you can’t be doing it that wrong.
It’s perfectly fine to be a masochist, but it doesn’t make anyone better’n anyone else, or the games better than anything else. Knowing what you like, managing game difficulty, knowing its features and “optimizing” your enjoyment are just another kind of gaming skill. You should never feel pressure to play at harder difficulties than you want, because… why would you? I know “souls culture” is full of screeching 13-year-olds with infinitely long lists of things that make you “nOt a ReAl GaMeR” despite being literally designed and implemented as part of the game, but fuck it: that’s why nobody listens to screeching 13-year-olds.
In soulsborne games, a win is a win is a win. If the boss slips the geometry the wrong way and dies, that counts. Summons are a tool in your arsenal, so use them! Also, sometimes you get to meet a badass like tarkus who solos the whole damn boss in like two seconds.
TARKUS! TARKUS! TARKUS!
It‘s a videogame, mate. People who flame others for not making a videogame as hard as possible on themselves should get their priorities checked. If it‘s fun for someone to beat the game hardmode: good for them; but if they expect everyone else to do the same to themselves: touch grass.
Use summons if you think the game‘s more fun for you that way. I do the same and I also enjoy getting summoned and helping lots of players in return.
If a summon was available, I’d use it. My logic is that the designers gave me access to these tools, why not?
Having said that, the Nameless Puppet is the only fight where you don’t get the summon - so that’s the one time the designers expect you to “git gud”.
Great fight, the hardest I’ve ever seen in a Souls-like, but technically fair. Just gotta learn those parry timings, yo.
I’ll be honest, I was a little pissed they didn’t make summons available for Nameless Puppet, but I got it in the end after 2 more hours of trying yesterday. Phase 1 was super easy by the time I finished the fight, phase 2 was a super close call. Ended up winning with no heals left and a couple thermites for the remaining health lol
Harder than Isshin or Owl Father? I remember struggling for several days trying to kill Isshin but got it in the end. Sometimes it felt like Nameless Puppet was easier but also harder at the same time
Nameless Puppet was definitely harder than Isshin, in my opinion.
Isshin was tough but very fairly designed. Part of NP’s moveset in Phase 2 is a bit gimmicky and hard to dodge/block, which is a bit of a pain.
I think Isshin is easier only in that it’s a better designed fight that rewards you more for learning his moves and tells.
I’ve always thought the soulsborne games encourage taking advantage of everything you can. Kite enemies. Pick them off from a distance with a bow. Summon a friend to help. The systems are there, they didn’t get created by accident, feel free to use them as you see fit. Or don’t. Just don’t be a judgey asshole towards other people for how they play.
Wholly agree. They’re tools to be used by the players, so it’s all an intended way to play the game
I don’t summon real people unless I’m truly desperate, but I absolutely use what the game has given me. I don’t like to repeatedly have my ass handed to me, and while I could “git gud” (and would have done so in my teens and 20s), I’d rather enjoy my limited play time.
I basically don’t care. Everything is some degree of handicap one way or another so: find the point that keeps you having fun and don’t cross that.
