Russia represent Russian citizens the same way the US represent US citizens. If you’re an US citizen and you think US international actions look bad on you then tough luck. Being a citizen of a specific state comes with its own responsibilities and consequences. If Russian nationals have long moved out of Russia and migrated elsewhere and don’t support anything Russia does, why are they still Russian citizens? If they don’t want to get sanctioned and they’ve long migrated from Russia they should apply for citizenship elsewhere. If they choose to stay Russian citizens that’s on them.
As for nationality vs citizenship. Nationality is too vague of a term because it can mean both citizen of a state and originating from said state. I’m pretty sure in this case the discussion is about people who are Russian citizens, not people who originate from Russia but are no longer associated with them. Using nationality only muddies the discussion.
Are you under the impression I’m some kind of strategical genius of political negotiation? I have no idea.
My point is that holding everybody responsible for what the specific form of government of the specific country they happened to be born into is a confortable truth to push back on the much more controversial take of all of us being the very same thing.
And to get slightly more practical, it’s asinine to suggest that anybody that disagrees with a government has the means, or the will, or the duty to straight up move to another country (obviously to a flawless country, good luck with that).
I’ll ask differently. Let’s just assume there is a way to make sure there is no overreach of sanctions, but it’s going to cost millions of tax dollars or euros. Would you rather have that money spent on things that are close to you (education, healthcare, infrastructure etc) or would you want that money to be spent identifying which Russians should or shouldn’t be sanctioned?
And to get slightly more practical, it’s asinine to suggest that anybody that disagrees with a government has the means, or the will, or the duty to straight up move to another country (obviously to a flawless country, good luck with that).
I agree, somethings shit just sucks. However, the other person said:
even of people who’ve long moved out and immigrated years ago and don’t support the invasion and war waged on Ukraine
Those people have already had the means, will or duty to move to another country. What’s their excuse for keeping the Russian citizenship?
Those people have already had the means, will or duty to move to another country. What’s their excuse for keeping the Russian citizenship?
There’s plenty of reason, the most likely is that they love their country, their homeland, their city, the network of friends, the memories and they hope, one day, to be able to get back.
Let’s just assume there is a way to make sure there is no overreach of sanctions, but it’s going to cost millions of tax dollars or euros. Would you rather have that money spent on things that are close to you (education, healthcare, infrastructure etc) or would you want that money to be spent identifying which Russians should or shouldn’t be sanctioned?
There’s plenty of reason, the most likely is that they love their country, their homeland, their city, the network of friends, the memories and they hope, one day, to be able to get back.
So it’s literally their decision to keep their citizenship and be sanctioned, but you’re still outraged about it?
Would you still love me if I was a giant moth?
I would definitely hate you less because I really hate trolls.
I’m not a troll but it’s unsurprising you are quick to hate considering your opinions toward mankind.
A country is not their government, their history is not their current posturing, the action of their military is not the expression of their local communities. The idea that since you are attached to a certain place is equivalent to sharing the broad general responsibility of its actions through history is what ultimately fuels shit like, you guessed it, the Russian invasion of Ukrain itself.
I’m not a troll but it’s unsurprising you are quick to hate considering your opinions toward mankind.
You’re literally avoiding answering the hard questions and instead throw up shit like that moth thing. That is standard troll behavior. Just because you want to believe you’re not a troll doesn’t mean you aren’t one. Go on, prove me wrong, do the non-troll thing and actually answer my questions instead of tip-toeing around them.
A country is not their government, their history is not their current posturing, the action of their military is the expression of their local communities.
Technically they are. The country is the governing body set up by the people that make up said country. In the case of Russia that government is corrupted and that government is to the detriment to its own people and now also a detriment to the surrounding countries. I am sympathetic to the struggles of the average Russian, but unlike you I don’t live in la-la land where everyone gets to have and eat their cake. They’ve let their country slip into corruption and ultimately that is on them because we can’t fix that without an even greater conflict. They’ve let their government get corrupted and the actions of that corrupt government has brought sanctions upon them.
And I get that not all of them are to blame, but we get back to the questions you deliberately avoided. Are we not supposed to sanction Russia and let them have their way with Ukraine? If we should sanction Russia and there is a costly way to make sure those sanctions wouldn’t overreach, do you want your tax money to be spent essentially on the well-being of Russians. Even if you know you’re likely to gain little to no benefit from that spending?
Exactly. ACF has published a list of every single person responsible for the war. Most of them are not sanctioned because they are filthy rich and have already bought themselves passports in various EU countries. Targeting Russian passports does absolutely nothing to them as they can just use another.
Sanctions are to punish the whole country including individuals. Sanctions work because it makes lives of individuals worse so that they have reason to be unhappy and do something against the reasons the sanctions is put on them. It makes it harder for leaders to be accepted, if under their power live gets worse. And if a leader is not accepted by enough of their people, the chances of resistance is bigger. And the countries that have put sanctions on, want exactly that.
This idea ignores how Russia works. Everyone already knows it’s a totalitarian shithole. They just don’t have the means to fight it, so they either lay low and play along, or try to get the fuck out. Sanctions hit the second group, as well as companies that implement them because they’re losing income. In fact, older folk here still grumble at USSR collapse and how effective free reign of capitalism was in the 90s at extracting wealth out of the country.
Even if that idea was to hold any water, straight up blocks are not what you’d need. For example, when I open up a site and I see a block page, the idea that pops into my head is always the same - “what a bunch of assholes…”. I can bypass the block either way, but the difference is that it can say either “blocked by the ministry of truth”, or “blocked because ur russian, haha get rekt”. Given how easy it is to get hit by censorship for innocent things, it’s rather easy to shift the blame, while keeping the business running, by just standing up to the ideas of free speech, like not removing the “celebrating the pride month” logo in that country specifically, like all of them did…
I guess the politicians of the countries having the sanctions in place have still to see and learn how the Russian people react to sanctions. I think many of them only know the Russian culture from some “schoolbooks” if even (like me 😅)
If they don’t want to get sanctioned and they’ve long migrated from Russia they should apply for citizenship elsewhere
Have you ever thought about doing this yourself? Don’t have to go far to figure that it takes at least 5 years of hard work in most cases, if possible at all. Citizenship unfortunately isn’t something you can acquire or renounce at will. Not without being obscenely rich, that is.
I never said it’s easy. I can understand someone keeping their citizenship out of convenience because the process of obtaining a different citizenship is difficult. However, I wouldn’t call it impossible. Based on my country the most time-consuming part about getting the citizenship is having to actually live here, which is at least 8 years under the residency permit. The language proficiency test and constitution (and citizenship act) examinations take an effort but are not insurmountable if you’re serious about getting a different citizenship. I haven’t gone through the process itself because I’ve never had the need, but based on what the legal requirements are I don’t see how that’s only for the obscenely rich. If you’re permanently settled elsewhere it’s a matter of time and effort.
I think my point still stands. If they have the option to choose a different citizenship and they choose not to, that’s on them. And when it comes to this specific instance I’m assuming some good will on from the rest of Linux maintainers. Hartman said “They can come back in the future if sufficient documentation is provided.” I assume if the Russian maintainers showed that they’ve passed the citizenship examinations and their different citizenship is only a matter of time, then that should be sufficient documentation to get them back on the list.
Is it any 8 years, or continious 8 years? In most places, the requirement is for continious, which is a tough ask. Imagine not being able to leave the country for almost a decade.
And you need a reason to get residence permit. In most cases there are few: living with spouse, reuniting with family, working, studying, or doing business. Of those, only work, study and business are the ones that are realistically achievable.
For work, there’s usually also a requirement for employeer to prove that there are no natives available to fill the role. This is a tough process, which takes a lot of time and no guarantee it’d even get approved. So, not many employees even bother unless you have exceptional skills.
For study, you would have to actually study to avoid expulsion, while somehow earning enough on some part-time remote work to support yourself (or have enough savings to support yourself for years). And then, bachelors is not enough so you must go for PhD. Meanwhile, in both above cases you have to also learn local language. I’m sure there are people who could pull this off, but, again, it’s quite exceptional.
Last is business. Usually the requirement is to invest somewhere in the ranges of $100k to $500k into local economy. That’s not filthy rich, but, for context, for Russian it’d take 3 years of fighting on the frontlines to earn as much, with a wage considered good enough to risk dying for… And then the country can still deny you permit without any reason.
It’s because of this, most people I know, who chose to leave the country keep their passports and either settle in Armenia and Georgia with 182/365 days renewable visa-free entry, or run circles between Serbia-Montenegro or Thailand-Vietnam.
There are also interesting opportunities with digital nomad visas, but, again, the requirements out of reach for most.
But for oligarchs, this is pennies. They can buy a few outright, then fly private jet to the US as tourists with pregnant wives, get children born there, then send them to study in London. Apply for family reunifications, bam, theyre now citizens of US and UK, in addition to all previous ones.
I assume if the Russian maintainers showed that they’ve passed the citizenship examinations and their different citizenship is only a matter of time
It’s the other way around. You have to live for X years to be eligible for the test. Given a common requirement of 5 years, they would have to have started this process 2 years before the war broke out.
I maintain US citizenship as the only biological child of my parents in case I need to be there for them due to an emergency or, later, end-of-life care. I cannot move them to Japan nor would they want to.
So hypothetically let’s say there’s a project or a job or anything of the sorts that you personally want to do, and that something requires that you’re not an US citizenship. I assume you’d stick with your parents and not get a Japanese citizenship. Would you accept that as the compromise you personally have to make (choosing the wellbeing of your parents over the thing you want to do) or would you complain that you’re being treated unfairly?
I would stick with my parents. I also have other citizenship and Japan would require giving up all citizenship to become a Japanese citizen. I would complain that it is bullshit as I do today about Japan’s current citizenship laws.
I also have other citizenship and Japan would require giving up all citizenship to become a Japanese citizen. I would complain that it is bullshit as I do today about Japan’s current citizenship laws.
Okay, but that’s irrelevant. I simply pointed at Japanese citizenship because your brought up Japan. The compromise was between keeping US citizenship to take care of your parents vs renouncing the US citizenship to do the thing you want to do. And you compromised to take care of your parents. That is a decision you would make.
So why are you defending the Russians abroad who have decided to keep their Russian citizenship? They also have a choice between keeping the Russian citizenship and fall under sanctions or renounce their citizenship and not fall under sanctions. It’s their decision to make.
As for Russians within Russia. Sad to say but they’re fucked regardless. I imagine the sanctions preventing them from working on Linux is the least of their problems. And as I pointed out in my other comment, would you be willing to spend your tax dollars to make sure the right Russians get sanctioned instead of spending those tax dollars in a way that would benefit you?
True, but that’s because Linux is kind of in a bind due to this war, but Linux probably benefits more from aligning with the western powers rather than fight for a handful of maintainers. Not that Linus would fight for Russian maintainers.
Russia represent Russian citizens the same way the US represent US citizens. If you’re an US citizen and you think US international actions look bad on you then tough luck. Being a citizen of a specific state comes with its own responsibilities and consequences. If Russian nationals have long moved out of Russia and migrated elsewhere and don’t support anything Russia does, why are they still Russian citizens? If they don’t want to get sanctioned and they’ve long migrated from Russia they should apply for citizenship elsewhere. If they choose to stay Russian citizens that’s on them.
As for nationality vs citizenship. Nationality is too vague of a term because it can mean both citizen of a state and originating from said state. I’m pretty sure in this case the discussion is about people who are Russian citizens, not people who originate from Russia but are no longer associated with them. Using nationality only muddies the discussion.
Congratulation, you are part of the problem!
So what are we supposed to do?
Not sanction Russia?
Apply sanctions on an individual basis?
Are you under the impression I’m some kind of strategical genius of political negotiation? I have no idea.
My point is that holding everybody responsible for what the specific form of government of the specific country they happened to be born into is a confortable truth to push back on the much more controversial take of all of us being the very same thing.
And to get slightly more practical, it’s asinine to suggest that anybody that disagrees with a government has the means, or the will, or the duty to straight up move to another country (obviously to a flawless country, good luck with that).
The way you denigrate different opinions, it seems you may be the one to think that, actually.
That’s just the misanthropy leaking…
I’ll ask differently. Let’s just assume there is a way to make sure there is no overreach of sanctions, but it’s going to cost millions of tax dollars or euros. Would you rather have that money spent on things that are close to you (education, healthcare, infrastructure etc) or would you want that money to be spent identifying which Russians should or shouldn’t be sanctioned?
I agree, somethings shit just sucks. However, the other person said:
Those people have already had the means, will or duty to move to another country. What’s their excuse for keeping the Russian citizenship?
There’s plenty of reason, the most likely is that they love their country, their homeland, their city, the network of friends, the memories and they hope, one day, to be able to get back.
Would you still love me if I was a giant moth?
So it’s literally their decision to keep their citizenship and be sanctioned, but you’re still outraged about it?
I would definitely hate you less because I really hate trolls.
I’m not a troll but it’s unsurprising you are quick to hate considering your opinions toward mankind.
A country is not their government, their history is not their current posturing, the action of their military is not the expression of their local communities. The idea that since you are attached to a certain place is equivalent to sharing the broad general responsibility of its actions through history is what ultimately fuels shit like, you guessed it, the Russian invasion of Ukrain itself.
You’re literally avoiding answering the hard questions and instead throw up shit like that moth thing. That is standard troll behavior. Just because you want to believe you’re not a troll doesn’t mean you aren’t one. Go on, prove me wrong, do the non-troll thing and actually answer my questions instead of tip-toeing around them.
Technically they are. The country is the governing body set up by the people that make up said country. In the case of Russia that government is corrupted and that government is to the detriment to its own people and now also a detriment to the surrounding countries. I am sympathetic to the struggles of the average Russian, but unlike you I don’t live in la-la land where everyone gets to have and eat their cake. They’ve let their country slip into corruption and ultimately that is on them because we can’t fix that without an even greater conflict. They’ve let their government get corrupted and the actions of that corrupt government has brought sanctions upon them.
And I get that not all of them are to blame, but we get back to the questions you deliberately avoided. Are we not supposed to sanction Russia and let them have their way with Ukraine? If we should sanction Russia and there is a costly way to make sure those sanctions wouldn’t overreach, do you want your tax money to be spent essentially on the well-being of Russians. Even if you know you’re likely to gain little to no benefit from that spending?
Exactly. ACF has published a list of every single person responsible for the war. Most of them are not sanctioned because they are filthy rich and have already bought themselves passports in various EU countries. Targeting Russian passports does absolutely nothing to them as they can just use another.
Sanctions are to punish the whole country including individuals. Sanctions work because it makes lives of individuals worse so that they have reason to be unhappy and do something against the reasons the sanctions is put on them. It makes it harder for leaders to be accepted, if under their power live gets worse. And if a leader is not accepted by enough of their people, the chances of resistance is bigger. And the countries that have put sanctions on, want exactly that.
This idea ignores how Russia works. Everyone already knows it’s a totalitarian shithole. They just don’t have the means to fight it, so they either lay low and play along, or try to get the fuck out. Sanctions hit the second group, as well as companies that implement them because they’re losing income. In fact, older folk here still grumble at USSR collapse and how effective free reign of capitalism was in the 90s at extracting wealth out of the country.
Even if that idea was to hold any water, straight up blocks are not what you’d need. For example, when I open up a site and I see a block page, the idea that pops into my head is always the same - “what a bunch of assholes…”. I can bypass the block either way, but the difference is that it can say either “blocked by the ministry of truth”, or “blocked because ur russian, haha get rekt”. Given how easy it is to get hit by censorship for innocent things, it’s rather easy to shift the blame, while keeping the business running, by just standing up to the ideas of free speech, like not removing the “celebrating the pride month” logo in that country specifically, like all of them did…
I guess the politicians of the countries having the sanctions in place have still to see and learn how the Russian people react to sanctions. I think many of them only know the Russian culture from some “schoolbooks” if even (like me 😅)
Have you ever thought about doing this yourself? Don’t have to go far to figure that it takes at least 5 years of hard work in most cases, if possible at all. Citizenship unfortunately isn’t something you can acquire or renounce at will. Not without being obscenely rich, that is.
I never said it’s easy. I can understand someone keeping their citizenship out of convenience because the process of obtaining a different citizenship is difficult. However, I wouldn’t call it impossible. Based on my country the most time-consuming part about getting the citizenship is having to actually live here, which is at least 8 years under the residency permit. The language proficiency test and constitution (and citizenship act) examinations take an effort but are not insurmountable if you’re serious about getting a different citizenship. I haven’t gone through the process itself because I’ve never had the need, but based on what the legal requirements are I don’t see how that’s only for the obscenely rich. If you’re permanently settled elsewhere it’s a matter of time and effort.
I think my point still stands. If they have the option to choose a different citizenship and they choose not to, that’s on them. And when it comes to this specific instance I’m assuming some good will on from the rest of Linux maintainers. Hartman said “They can come back in the future if sufficient documentation is provided.” I assume if the Russian maintainers showed that they’ve passed the citizenship examinations and their different citizenship is only a matter of time, then that should be sufficient documentation to get them back on the list.
Is it any 8 years, or continious 8 years? In most places, the requirement is for continious, which is a tough ask. Imagine not being able to leave the country for almost a decade.
And you need a reason to get residence permit. In most cases there are few: living with spouse, reuniting with family, working, studying, or doing business. Of those, only work, study and business are the ones that are realistically achievable.
For work, there’s usually also a requirement for employeer to prove that there are no natives available to fill the role. This is a tough process, which takes a lot of time and no guarantee it’d even get approved. So, not many employees even bother unless you have exceptional skills.
For study, you would have to actually study to avoid expulsion, while somehow earning enough on some part-time remote work to support yourself (or have enough savings to support yourself for years). And then, bachelors is not enough so you must go for PhD. Meanwhile, in both above cases you have to also learn local language. I’m sure there are people who could pull this off, but, again, it’s quite exceptional.
Last is business. Usually the requirement is to invest somewhere in the ranges of $100k to $500k into local economy. That’s not filthy rich, but, for context, for Russian it’d take 3 years of fighting on the frontlines to earn as much, with a wage considered good enough to risk dying for… And then the country can still deny you permit without any reason.
It’s because of this, most people I know, who chose to leave the country keep their passports and either settle in Armenia and Georgia with 182/365 days renewable visa-free entry, or run circles between Serbia-Montenegro or Thailand-Vietnam.
There are also interesting opportunities with digital nomad visas, but, again, the requirements out of reach for most.
But for oligarchs, this is pennies. They can buy a few outright, then fly private jet to the US as tourists with pregnant wives, get children born there, then send them to study in London. Apply for family reunifications, bam, theyre now citizens of US and UK, in addition to all previous ones.
It’s the other way around. You have to live for X years to be eligible for the test. Given a common requirement of 5 years, they would have to have started this process 2 years before the war broke out.
I maintain US citizenship as the only biological child of my parents in case I need to be there for them due to an emergency or, later, end-of-life care. I cannot move them to Japan nor would they want to.
So hypothetically let’s say there’s a project or a job or anything of the sorts that you personally want to do, and that something requires that you’re not an US citizenship. I assume you’d stick with your parents and not get a Japanese citizenship. Would you accept that as the compromise you personally have to make (choosing the wellbeing of your parents over the thing you want to do) or would you complain that you’re being treated unfairly?
I would stick with my parents. I also have other citizenship and Japan would require giving up all citizenship to become a Japanese citizen. I would complain that it is bullshit as I do today about Japan’s current citizenship laws.
Okay, but that’s irrelevant. I simply pointed at Japanese citizenship because your brought up Japan. The compromise was between keeping US citizenship to take care of your parents vs renouncing the US citizenship to do the thing you want to do. And you compromised to take care of your parents. That is a decision you would make.
So why are you defending the Russians abroad who have decided to keep their Russian citizenship? They also have a choice between keeping the Russian citizenship and fall under sanctions or renounce their citizenship and not fall under sanctions. It’s their decision to make.
As for Russians within Russia. Sad to say but they’re fucked regardless. I imagine the sanctions preventing them from working on Linux is the least of their problems. And as I pointed out in my other comment, would you be willing to spend your tax dollars to make sure the right Russians get sanctioned instead of spending those tax dollars in a way that would benefit you?
It’s even more problematic for users of Linux. Less maintainers.
True, but that’s because Linux is kind of in a bind due to this war, but Linux probably benefits more from aligning with the western powers rather than fight for a handful of maintainers. Not that Linus would fight for Russian maintainers.