one day we will just stick with daylight time. its kind of a slap in the face to lose your only hour of sunlight after work!
One day we will just stick with standard time.
(Or we’ll try permanent DST and experience all of the negative effects and then either go back to cycling or realize we should’ve done permanent standard.)
Drop “daylight savings time” and “standard time” monikers. Use UTC offsets, and tell us what state you are in.
New York and Michigan are currently in the same time zone. When we go to permanent time, they should not be.
Michigan in UTC-4 (EDT) winter would have a sunrise after 9AM. That’s fucking absurd; they should not be on UTC-4 during winter. They should be permanently on UTC-5.
New York in UTC-5 (EST) would have a summer sunrise before 4AM. That’s fucking absurd. They should not be on UTC-5 in the summer. They should be permanently on UTC-4.
Maine’s earliest sunset on UTC-5 will be at 3:45PM. That is criminally insane. They should permanently be on UTC-4, or maybe even UTC-3.
Or we’ll realize that the specific numbers are arbitrary and use UTC everywhere.
China does a variant of this where the whole country is on Beijing time. 99% Invisible did an episode that covered it here: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/matters-of-time/
Basically the local Uyghur population in Xinjiang code switch and maintain an unofficial local time which aligns more closely with the movement of the sun.
You are right, but do you really want to deal with the confusion of having to wake up at some random number like 4pm UTC? And then if you finally get used to that you travel abroad and now you have to wake up at 1am? Timezones are a mess but if done correctly, they make sense because the numbers won’t be arbitrary.
I don’t see how dealing with that is any worse than dealing with time zones.
Downside of UTC everywhere: you might have to set your alarm for a different time when you travel.
Upsides: Never need to account for timezones in communication. Never need to change a clock, ever.
They make sense because the numbers won’t be arbitrary.
But they are. There’s no changing that. They’re arbitrary now. They’d be arbitrary if we had UTC everywhere. We’re not out here using sundials to set our clocks, 12:00 is not solar noon more often than it is.
I’m with you. Another perk is a sense of where you are on the planet. If I get up with the sunrise at 22:00 somewhere, then travel somewhere the sun rises around 18:00, it’s obvious the sun is hitting this part of the planet sooner.
If UTC were widely adopted, it’d be interesting to see what employers near time zones would do. EG start work at 19:00 or 20:00? 19:30? Flex-time with mandatory core hours from 22:00 to 02:00? Maybe I’m over optimistic, but it seems like it would encourage more flexible work hours.
12:00 is not solar noon more often than it is.
if timezones were done correctly it would be and the numbers wouldn’t be that arbitrary
It definitely would not be, regardless of whatever “done correctly” means. Solar noon at exactly 12:00 is only going to happen on a single line of longitude. If you have a timezone centered on that line and exactly 15° (one hour) wide then solar noon will be up to 30 minutes away from 12:00 depending on your east/west position in that timezone.
It was exactly this realization that the numbers were arbitrary and 12:00 didn’t need to be solar noon that led to the creation of timezones in the first place, so that it’s not 4:14 in Norwich while it’s 3:52 in Birmingham and just travelling from city to city doesn’t mean you’re changing your watch constantly and it becomes actually possible to write a sensible rail schedule.
Timezones are already a step toward an arbitrary standard time for the purposes of making communication easier and not needing to change your watch just because you moved around. UTC everywhere would just be another larger step in that already established direction.
Timezones are already a step toward an arbitrary standard time for the purposes of making communication easier and not needing to change your watch just because you moved around. UTC everywhere would just be another larger step in that already established direction.
The next step is to stop talking about “Daylight Savings Time” and “Standard Time” and phrase these as UTC offsets.
The Eastern timezone uses UTC-5 over the winter. We use UTC-4 over the summer. In summer, if they used UTC-5, the sunrise in New York would be around 4AM. Which is way too early. New York should not be on UTC-5 in the summer. But there is no real problem with New York using UTC-4 year round.
Detroit, on the other hand, would have sunrise after 9AM in winter if they used UTC-4. Which is absurd; they cannot use UTC-4 year round. But, there is no real problem with them using UTC-5 year round.
The solution, then, is not to select permanent DST or Standard Time for the entire timezone. The solution is for the states (or localities) to each select which UTC offset makes sense for them, and the next time they are on that offset, they do not switch again.
The negative effects are either due to the act of changing the clocks forward implemented in such a way as to deprive everyone everywhere an hour of sleep, or something something natural light in the morning. Which is not a benefit of “standard” or “daylight savings” time, it’s a complete and utter failure of “work starts at 6AM and ends at 10PM.”
The solution: Lynch all the rich people. If there’s no one to be forced to build wealth for, we won’t have to work such long hours and we can get up and have free time in daylight.
It is amazing how many problems would be resolved with liberal use of (figurative) guillotines.
Where I live, even our winter time isn’t close to be aligned with sun time (GMT+1 though we’re basically on the Greenwich meridian). Summer time is off by two hours.
Problem is, our school/work/activity schedules have been made to adapt to that, so having days centered around actual sun midday would sound like crazy talk to people. It’s just because of how we already compensated for it.
So many people don’t understand that the same outcome of an ‘extra hour’ after work could be had by shorter work hours or not having the majority of the typical office workday after noon.
9-5 was a 3|5 split. 8-5 is a 4|5 split. Treating 5 pm as the only rime to end the office workday is the fucking problem, not the sun. Changing clocks twice a year is a problem.
Good. I don’t need light in the evening, I need it in the morning so I can wake up feeling rested. End DST; make standard time permanent.
Fuck that, use coffee like everyone else. Sun after work is literally the only time I see sun in the winter.
Fuck that, use coffee like everyone else.
Fuck that, y’all are addicted to caffeine and normalising it to the point where not being a coffee craving zombie in the morning is apparently a weird thing.
Sun after work is literally the only time I see sun in the winter.
Idk what your job is but do you not have any windows anywhere? Because that’s how you get burnout along with coffee addiction.
Why does my boss get virtually all of my daylight for half a year? Why don’t I get some daylight for my own use between work time and bedtime?
Where do you live within your timezone?
I think your sentiment comes from people living on the western side of their time zone, where sunrise and sunset is an hour later than on the eastern end. On the western edge of the timezone (Detroit, for example, on the west end of the Eastern timezone), sunrise in winter could be as late as 9AM.
On the eastern end of a timezone, sunset can be as early as 3:45PM. As early as you want your sunlight, I think we can agree that a sunset before 4PM is ridiculously absurd.
If you are, indeed, on the western edge of the timezone as I think, we could adopt DST, and move you to the next zone to the west, which would put you on the same time as standard time in your current zone. You win, we win, everyone wins.
Alternatively, we could adopt Standard Time, and move people on the eastern edge to the next time zone to the east, which would put them on the same time zone as DST in their current time zone. Again, you win, we win, everyone wins.
Are you on the western edge of your timezone, or at least in the western half?
Plus if standard time becomes normal year round sunrise in places like NYC would be 4:30 (with first light at 3 AM). Bonkers early
So is living in a city where no one ever sleeps. /s
Exactly. New York would probably elect to stay permanently on UTC-4 (EDT/Atlantic Standard Time), and never switch to UTC-5 (EST) like they are now. Michigan would probably choose UTC-5 permanently, and never switch to UTC-4, like they currently do in the summer.
Both states are in the same time zone. They probably shouldn’t be when we go to permanent time.
Not having sunrise unill 8:15 in winter is nightmarish. Its also much easier to make your room dark in mid summer than stimulate sunrise in mid winter.
Its easier to illuminate a bedroom in the morning than the great outdoors in a ridiculously early evening.
Just go outside earlier. We should change jobs and work hours not cause half of everyone sleep deprivation. We can all can win, but its not by using DST year round.
Let’s stop using the terms “DST” and “standard time”. They really confuse the issue. The contiguous US uses UTC-4 (EDT) , UTC-5 (EST/CDT) UTC-6 (CST/MDT), UTC-7 (MST/PDT) and UTC-8 (PST) time zones. We aren’t all going to be using the same UTC offset for permanent time. We are all going to be adopting the UTC offset that makes sense for our region.
New England and Michigan are currently in the same time zone, which switches between UTC-4 and UTC-5. Year-round UTC-5 puts dawn before 4am in New York City during the summer. New England should absolutely not be on UTC-5 in the summer. They should be on UTC-4. On permanent UTC-4, New York dawns will always be between 5 and 8 AM.
Year-round UTC-4 puts dawn at 9am in Detroit during the winter. Detroit should absolutely not be in UTC-4 in the winter. On permanent UTC-5, Detroit dawns will always be between 5 and 8 AM.
New York should be on permanent UTC-4. Detroit should be on permanent UTC-5.
Before the introduction of daylight savings, people and companies were perfectly capable of adjusting the productive hours according to the sun - if they needed to.
Farmers who are usually (wrongly) used as an example were against the clock changes, because it really isn’t relevant to them and only creates problems for their schedules with live stock.
The actual reason for the daylight saving was saving energy and coal. This is not an issue anymore, because the energy used for lighting is negligible today.
The only sane thing to do is to stop changing the clocks and then focus on making working schedules more flexible.
Sun: Ahh, I’m ready to go to bed, it’s been a long day.
Daylight Savings Time: Stay up another hour because we base our schedules around businesses. Fuck your sleep cycle!
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Ive been struggling getting good sleep bc i had to wake up in the dark the last month, finally felt ok yesterday with the time switch. DST is a nightmare of sleep deprivation.
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What ever time is fine, we just have to stop switching.
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I have a north-facing apartment, and the super-early sunset makes me sad.
I live in a basement and it was dark enough I had to turn the lights on a 4:30 yesterday. That was depressing.
based.
where do you live where the sun goes down at 4? its always ~6:45-7 at the earliest where I live iirc
Sunset is at 4:47PM in Seattle, Washington tonight.
16:14 in Tampere, Finland tonight.
woah, that’s crazy. Thanks for the info
Somewhere north of south of the tropics.
Sunset in Eastport ME is as early as 3:45PM EST. Which is fucking absurd.
You must live on the western edge of your timezone.
Everyone here is having the same conversations that everyone always has, twice a year, since the start of changing the clocks.
These same exact conversations will be had again in six months and everyone will act like it’s the first time. Again. And again. And agian
