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Ayn Rand didn’t stop smoking after she’d been warned about the risks.
Because her books weren’t selling, she ended up on social security, a program she’d mocked when healthy.
To her admirers she is a model of the power of intellect and the glory of self reliance and independence
“The only moral use of [thing I disapprove of] is my use of [thing I disapprove of].”
A quote that may have originally been about abortion, but applies to most things that serial disapprovers disapprove of.
See also: “Do as I say, not as I do.” or as it usually is these days: “Do as I say. I am also doing as I say and if think you see me doing otherwise, no you didn’t.”
I will never get tired of linking to this: The Only Moral Abortion Is My Abortion
I genuinely hate to disagree but taking social security when you need it is acting in your natural self interest. It’s not hypocritical. Ironic yes but not “do as I say not as I do”. Also doesn’t make it a good philosophy to govern by
The issue here isn’t her being on social security, it’s her arguing against its existence because ‘Nobody should need it’.
Please reread the comment I’m responded to
We did. If she was consistent, she should have just chosen to die since it’s wrong for others to help her.
That would not be acting in her “rational self interest” read the comic. Ayn Rand was a monster but that’s just not the definition of hypocrite and it is not in line with saying “do as I say not as I do”. She said be selfish take what you can and did. I do not agree with this but I’m not pretending it’s hypocritical. It is consistent with her fucked up beliefs
You actually were referring to the comic, not the post you were responding to. The post you responded to did not say that at all.
I literally quoted the comment I responded to
See also: “Do as I say, not as I do.”
What are you talking about?
The fact that she eventually needed the social security checks shows that it was in her natural self interest for the system to exist and for her to pay into it. A safety net, whether or not you will ever personally use it, is something that is good for society overall and serves everyone’s self-interest by being there to catch one when they fall.
If you’re walking a high-wire, it is in your rational self interest to use a harness. Even if it costs money to ensure everyone gets a harness, and suppose you even have a high enough “skill” that you never actually get to use yours; a world that you never have to see anyone fall to their bloody death or worry about your own death is certainly better than the brutal alternative for the amount you pay into the harness.
If you go to a festival and there are paramedics on standby, just in case; the paramedics have to get paid even if nobody ends up needing them, but they are there because the chances are high enough that somebody could get hurt and the response will be much more efficient with better outcomes if travel time to the venue isn’t a factor. Nobody plans to get hurt, but everyone pays into it through the ticket price. It is in everyone’s self-interest to have them there. If you follow Randian philosophy, it is only in your interest if you happen to be the one that gets hurt, but this is entirely unpredictable.
She’s a hypocrite, because she herself is not able to fairly assess her own natural self-interest but her philosophy expects everyone else to be able to do so.
She’s a hypocrite, because she herself is not able to fairly assess her own natural self-interest but her philosophy expects everyone else to be able to do so.
That seems like a stretch but it’s definitely the best argument I’ve heard. The hypocrisy is in needing social security then, not taking it. I could definitely see some arguments against it, like claiming the existence of social security is what necessitated it, but that’s definitely not as clear cut and I can respect that perspective
deleted by creator
I always upvote deleted commnets
That’s risky, there could be some pretty heinous fucked up shit in there waiting to be undeleted.
But I agree with the sentiment.
source: https://existentialcomics.com/comic/364 (it has mouseover text too…)
I’m still waiting for a critique of rational self-interest that doesn’t fail right out of the gate by stipulating an irrational position or decision.
This one wasn’t even vaguely close.
Do you believe ayn rand believed in rational self-interest?
If so, why was she against all forms of welfare and socialism? If not, isn’t she the inventor of the concept and thus the arbiter of what it should mean? Doesn’t that mean you’re changing the definition to suit your needs?
Funny… this is actually a different account than I was originally posting from - I switched to it because the entire thread has vanished from fedia.io.
And pretty much the first thing I see here is this response, which I didn’t even know existed before.
Not a good look for fedia.io.
Anyway…
Do you believe ayn rand believed in rational self-interest?
I think she probably thought she did, but I also think she obviously didn’t even begin to understand it.
If so, why was she against all forms of welfare and socialism?
The glib answer would be because she didn’t even begin to understand rational self-interest.
The more likely answer, which somehow manages to be even more shallow, is because the USSR was nominally communist and she hated the USSR.
If not, isn’t she the inventor of the concept and thus the arbiter of what it should mean?
No.
Even if she was in fact the inventor of the concept, which she most assuredly is not, she still wouldn’t be the arbiter of its meaning.
Though she was such an egotistical authoritarian that if she were alive today, she’d undoubtedly be insisting that she was.
Doesn’t that mean you’re changing the definition to suit your needs?
Kind of.
While I really couldn’t care less what Rand envisioned, so certainly feel no desire to hew to her conception, I haven’t changed it to suit my “needs” per se. I’ve changed it as necessary so that it actually is, as far as I can see, what it appears to refer to - “rational” “self-interest.”
I think it’s a sound concept, and that Rand, blinded as she was by her emotions, her authoritarian habits and her gargantuan ego, didn’t grasp it.
Thanks for the response.
Your problem is that when people argue against rational self-interest, they’re arguing against what ayn rand meant by it… because she coined the term and defined it, and as she defined it, it’s really stupid.
You’re just talking about rational self interest the phrase, which has nothing to do with her ideology, and is not what is ever being criticized… because again she is the inventor of the ideology.
This is akin to if you argued with a communist, saying communism is obviously wrong because you don’t like particular communities such as terrorists and commun-ism means belief that all communities are good. This is technically a correct interpretation of the etymology, but is not what anyone means when they refer to communism. You’ve completely redefined the term that has already been defined by a particular person who coined it, because you prefer to use the etymological definition rather than the definition created by the inventor of the term. You are then arguing that people using the term as it was defined by it’s creator are using it wrong, even though there is a particular history associated with this term and people are referring to that history. Why do you believe that the historical value of the term is less important than it’s etymology? If we follow this structure, most meaning will fall completely apart.
for example, the word meaning, mean-ing, without the history that binds us in our communication that could mean the process of being mean, there’s no reason this doesn’t work etymologically, but we have history with these terms that make them have meaning beyond their etymology.
Lady in red is presenting an extremely common series of steps that companies take for the owner/investor self interest in profit.
How is it critiquing an irrational position?
That series of steps, common or not, is bludgeoningly irrational, and for multiple reasons.
In fact, the introductory part of the comic, showing her rejecting the entirely rational option of working half as long to produce the same amount clearly communicates the point that it’s irrational, as does the last frame, illustrating the consequences of her self-evidently irrational choice.
She is, however, acting in her own rational self-interest by keeping all the value of the new machine for herself and not passing it on to her workers. If she were acting in the group’s rational self-interest, she would allow them to work half as long. Since she is acting in her own rational self-interest, she threatens to fire her workers if they do not work the same hours as before and pass the value on to her. From her perspective, it makes perfect sense: all she has to do is install the new machine and make no other changes, and she and begins earning twice as much income from the factory she owns, without having to lift a finger. Any purely rational person (as opposed, mind you, to an empathetic one) would take the option to do that.
She is, however, acting in her own rational self-interest by keeping all the value of the new machine for herself and not passing it on to her workers.
No, she rather obviously is not, as vividly illustrated by the fact that she caused so much hostility that she ends up going to the guillotine.
She is very clearly acting in her irrational self- interest.
If she were acting in the group’s rational self-interest, she would allow them to work half as long.
And if she were acting in her own rational self-interest, she would do the same, since her well-being (and in fact, as neatly illustrated in the comic, her very life) depends on the well-being of the group.
Since she is acting in her own rational self-interest, she threatens to fire her workers if they do not work the same hours as before and pass the value on to her.
No. Again, she is rather obviously acting in her own irrational self-interest, as vividly illustrated in the last panel.
Any purely rational person (as opposed, mind you, to an empathetic one) would take the option to do that.
What on earth leads you to believe that rationality and empathy are mutually exclusive?
As social animals, empathy is eminently rational, and in fact I would argue that rationality is impossible without it.
And if she were acting in her own rational self-interest, she would do the same, since her well-being (and in fact, as neatly illustrated in the comic, her very life) depends on the well-being of the group.
This assumes perfect foresight. As can be seen from the history of robber barons and the legacy they left, it generally did work out for most of them, so they were correct in their choices focusing on self-interest. Not since the French revolution has any significant number of rich assholes faced significant consequences for their choices in placing their personal welfare above the group.
This comic makes the presupposition that the workers have a guillotine to use on her. In the comic, she was unaware that they did, and in the real world, they very much do not. If you instead gave the lines she says in the comic to the real-world Jeff Bezos, they would be perfectly rational.
It is rational self interest, not rational group interest. Hence why she doesn’t act in a way that would benefit others, because they can now do twice the output in the same amount of time because of the machine!
‘Rational self interest’ is just being selfish.
Rational group interest IS rational self-interest.
As social animals living in communities and as part of any number of groups, we must, if we’re rational, be mindful of the well-being of groups, because our own well-being depends on it.
‘Rational self interest’ is just being selfish.
No it in fact is not. Selfishness causes any number of negative consequences - suffering, hostility, crime, conflict, rebellion, war, death… So it’s bludgeoningly obviously irrational, and therefore cannot be rational self interest.
No it in fact is not. Selfishness causes any number of negative consequences - suffering, hostility, crime, conflict, rebellion, war, death… So it’s bludgeoningly obviously irrational, and therefore cannot be rational self interest.
for 99% of people yes. but if you happen to be at the very top of the ladder and if things are broken enough you can be self interested into destroying the world. Fact is the guillotines aren’t being rolled out. The protests that happen are pretty consistently swatted with barely a weeks hindrance to the years between them. We all suffer the consiquences of the olligarchy, the ones making the laws and decisions are largely above those hardships.
Self is group, group is self.
Dog is cat
Water is dry
Up is down
‘Rational self interest’ is just being selfish.
*Irrational self interest. Rational self interest would still involve improving the worker’s lives due to the support structure that a community brings
