What I have learned:

  • Russia has already won the Ukraine war
  • Which NATO started
  • A lot of people in the West think that Ukraine should surrender
  • Also Ukraine was the world’s main provider of CSAM
  • Also Ukraine is exploited by the West but if they can unite with Russia then their economy and everything else will finally be alright

It’s literally like a bizarro world and everyone is over there agreeing with it. I’m genuinely confused by, who even are these people (what is the mixture of Russian bots / Russian-aligned ordinary people / confused Westerners / some other explanation.)

  • iarigby@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    I would LOVE to find a non deranged communist forum but like I said on another comment, I have yet to encounter one which does not make me vomit all over the screen after I see them celebrating bloodshed in Ukraine and masturbating to the idea of an independent sovereign nation being crushed by brutal, authoritarian, and savage state.

    It’s heartbreaking that people seeking an ideology with genuinely noble intentions turn into such violent loons. On hexbear (and co) I think they are genuinely mostly from the west but try so hard to stick it to US imperialism that they literally end up supporting a significantly more horrifying empire. I sometimes think that they deserve to have been born into Soviet Union or present Russia but I genuinely cannot bring myself to wish such horror on a human being. Their thoroughly typed and carefully cherry picked facts vs what the victims of these regimes went through have the same vibe as Tucker’s recent montage/comments about trip to Russia.

    Most propaganda is grain sized, very subtle and so well masked that most people swallow without noticing it. It is structured so vaguely and discreetly that others who smell it are not able to produce hard enough evidence.

    And with enough time we get the stereotypical tankie communities - gullible teenagers, bitter adults that are so blinded by search of an alternative that by endless reading they somehow achieve ignorance and betray fundamental human values, and some Russians having the time of their life having their disgusting views and evil atrocities welcomed, accepted, and spread for free.

    They do not allow discussions, but the Russian propaganda that gets spread on other servers or social media cost them nothing emotionally while all of us who have to argue back need to resurface feelings that we suffer under Russia’s terrorism, after inheriting the generational trauma from parents born into Soviet Union.

    • mozz@mbin.grits.devOP
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      slrpnk.net seems to have some genuine socialist / communist ideology without the tankie flavor. They have a couple of users who I think are pretty effective “and that’s why Emma Goldman would be okay with letting Trump come to power!” shills, but for the most part it’s just the good stuff. IMO.

      • Schmoo@slrpnk.net
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        Slrpnk.net leans anarchist, and historically there has always been a vocal subset of anarchists who advocate abstaining from electoral politics on principle. The upcoming US presidential election is the perfect storm for this stance to thrive and still it is a minority position even among the most anarchist instance on Lemmy, so I’m pretty happy with the diversity of opinion expressed there. I think it’s important we hear those minority voices and a bit unfair to call them shills.

        • mozz@mbin.grits.devOP
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          Oh no, I wasn’t talking about the general “don’t vote” contingent on slrpnk – that seems fine; just like you’re saying, it seems authentically arrived at. I was just saying that there are a couple of users there that seem to have a particular and very specific focus on this exact election and specifically on not voting in this election, and not much interest in anarchism beyond its application to parts that would be generally applicable to someone who was trying to engineer a result for Trump in the election.

          I mean, what the hell, no one needs my permission to say whatever they feel like saying. But to the extent that my opinion on it matters, I don’t think slrpnk overall or its general “fuck the system and yes that includes the voting system” vibe that it has are indicative of anything shill related, no.

    • cor@slrpnk.net
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      you will not find a non-deranged communist forum because: 89% of all users will be shills… the remaining 11% will be beaten down, ridiculed, and/or banned for saying anything not deranged….

      i’ve asked in person, lifelong activist/leftists and they all say the same thing: online forums are so infiltrated and fucked it’s not worth the aggravation.

      i don’t think it’s worth giving up on entirely, but even if you make a no-tankies/ direct russian propaganda repeating, they just pivot to FUD, forum sliding, concern trolling…

      even totally sane, reasonable accounts can be fake just so they can get inside the next level or take over moderation…

    • DAMunzy@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      I’ve heard horror stories about the USSR but I’ve also heard meh stories where life wasn’t the best but their needs were taken care of- not having luxuries but socialized healthcare and housing so don’t live in fear like I do currently in the US of being one medical hiccup from being in a world of hurt or one interaction with a cop and the legal system from destroying my life. Will my kids say they have this generational trauma too?

      • iarigby@lemmy.world
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        I can imagine why you think that this reasoning makes sense but these are completely unrelated things. Many people in the US live in deeply brutal psychological and economic distress that resulted from decades of worker hostile reforms. People in social democratic European countries live under capitalism and deal with its issues too but the socialist policies limit the severity to the point where it’s not outright traumatic. In all countries people need to thrive for socialist change and a system that treats humans kinder but this does not mean that we need to in any way tolerate people trying to drag brutal and horrific dictatorships into a positive light

  • Mastengwe@lemm.ee
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    5 months ago

    Hexbear is generally confused by everything, so it makes sense that nothing they say makes sense.

    It’s best to think of them like this:

    Imagine The_Donald, but instead of it being a cesspit of right-wing ignorance, it’s a cesspit of communist ignorance.

  • kandoh@reddthat.com
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    There are some Americans, who upon learning that the US is not the mythological good guy it’s propaganda portrayed it as, are dealt such severe psychic damage that the only way their fractured mind is able to cope is to just assume the opposite worldview must be true.

    The key takeaway is that they’re not capable of thinking for themselves. They require others to tell them what to think, and that’s either going to be US or Russian propaganda.

  • Railcar8095@lemm.ee
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    Hexbears can’t answer the question “is it ok to kill civilians” without asking “Palestinian or Ukrainian?”

    Somehow, if you say that killing children is bad regardless of religion, country or skin color, you’re a racist and a Nazi.

  • goat@sh.itjust.worksM
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    3 months ago

    Tankie ‘thought’ is very simple: US bad.

    that’s it. that’s all you need to do.

  • blackn1ght@feddit.uk
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    This thread makes me laugh.

    They’re getting their knickers in a twist thinking that Biden is escalating and would be the cause for a nuclear war, conveniently forgetting that:

    • Russia invaded Ukraine
    • Russia has been constantly making threats to use nuclear weapons against western nations since the invasion started
    • Russia attacks Ukraine from within their own borders
    • nonailsleft@lemm.ee
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      Cool, this is one of the most upvoted comments:

      I know right, crazy how that works. Imagine Russia telling Mexico they can fire missiles into Texas.

      Like yeah ok if the US was trying to annex Mexico and Russia started supplying the latter with weapons and discussing the ROE, then yeah

      I’m sure ‘DankZedong’ would like the ‘Mexinazis’ to keep their Russian missiles strictly south of the border in such a scenario

      • mozz@mbin.grits.devOP
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        I mean I do think that somewhere in the crazy is a valid point on that specific score. There’s actually a moderately close analogy in Nicaragua, which the US was actively attacking, and then they started sourcing fighter jets from Russia purely to try to defend against our air force actively fucking them up inside their borders, and the whole of the US political spectrum freaked the fuck out, took it to the UN, escalated the war, there were all these editorials about what a crisis it was, etc etc, and that was barely even on the same continent as us.

        This was all during the 1980s, when I actually think that US foreign policy was quite a lot closer to Russia’s current foreign policy than not. I think we’ve mellowed somewhat since then, although we’re still fine with killing civilians the world over when it serves our purposes. But yes, the US has a few data points worth of history of freaking out completely over “threats” from foreign alliances that are not even on the same continent (or hemisphere if you want to go back to the 70s) as us. I think the difference is that Russia has been antagonizing its neighbors on the west so thoroughly now that almost 100% of them actively want to gear up for real war with Russia, which I’m sure would make any country nervous regardless of how it got to be that way.

        • nonailsleft@lemm.ee
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          Yeah so their point sure is valid as long as you think the US was right to attack Nicaragua and they shouldn’t have tried to defend themselves

    • Mastengwe@lemm.ee
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      You can block them, but there are tons of them that have lemmy.world accounts- and post regularly in the political communities.

      You’ll know them when you see them.

      • AmosBurton_ThatGuy@lemmy.ca
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        Yep like the account sootius in this thread, 3 month old account and 90% of the comments are just defending hexbear. Buddy really has nothing better to do with their time apparently, pathetic.

        • Mastengwe@lemm.ee
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          Have you seen the people posting nothing but anti-Biden propaganda and telling people they shouldn’t vote?

    • YeetPics@mander.xyz
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      If the opinions are “killing civilians is bad” and “land grabs are shitty”…

      Yes, everyone should hold those as truth.

      If you don’t, then you support all sorts of bad shit like genocides and civilian displacement.

      If that’s the case, you deserve to have the entirety of this platform openly mock you wherever you go.

    • mozz@mbin.grits.devOP
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      Hexbear: Literally the most insane and aggressive disagreement with literally everything and everyone, including yelling and cursing and deleting comments and banning people who disagree with their insane viewpoint

      Me: I think your opinions are not correct

      Hexbear: Why are you SILENCING MY DISSENT this is unfair

    • AngryishHumanoid@lemmy.world
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      Reading comprehension really isn’t your thing, is it? Or are you just intentionally misstating OPs position to push a different narrative?

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    If this is a honest question I will try to give some honest context, I do not represent a Hexbear, so these are just some views that I have that make me sceptical of the narrative that currently exists.

    After the cold war there were calls to establish a common security structure including Russia to try to ensure peace in Europe. Instead the US (with pressure from past satellite states of Moscow, Poland, Czechia, etc) chose to maintain NATO and on top of that invite everybody except Russia, many foreign policy experts already warned that this was a recipe for war, but wether it was malice or incompetence they were ignored.

    Fast forward to 2008 the US suggests inviting Ukraine (and Georgia) to NATO, and Russia makes extremely clear that this would not happen, that this was a red line for them. Now you can disagree with Russias right to say anything about the military alliances of its neighbours, but the fact that Russia is a military regional power with nukes is something you need to deal with. Again wether it was incompetence or malice is hard to say but the next 14 years are basically a chain of escalatory actions by the US combined with a series of stronger and stronger warnings from Russia that this would lead to war.

    During the events themselves it is hard to judge as a civilian what exactly is happening in geopolitics, the US has a very clear trackrecord of treat inflation or simply lying about its true intentions or the truth on the ground. It could of course be that this is one of those rare cases where the US are truly the Good Guys™️ or it could be that this is a ploy to weaken a rival with the only price being the destruction of a country they don’t care about and the death of hundreds of thousands of military age males they don’t care about.

    • iarigby@lemmy.world
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      these are just some views that I have

      Where else other than hexbear or Russian state media were you able to find such egregiously biased views?

        • Justas🇱🇹@sh.itjust.works
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          5 months ago

          Mearsheimer, Morgenthau and similar “political realists” are the main reason why the world is in such a messy state.

          They dehumanise entire societies into poker chips to be traded between the superpowers, disregard their national interests and ignore history and non-european states when convenient.

          • arymandias@feddit.de
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            You switch cause and effect, realism tries to describe the word as is and not as it should be and then bases policies on that. Of course basing your policies on realism changes the world, but US policy has mostly been based on liberalism for the last 30 years, and yet the world is still made up of poker chips and superpowers.

            Of course the policies you choose based on realist principles can be used to increase your power as a country (and thus use poker chips cynically) or it can be used to build a prosperous and peaceful world (given the limitations of the natural anarchic state of international politics).

            As a Dutch person I accept that the US can decide to turn the Netherlands into a nuclear testing ground whenever it wants and there is nothing we can do about that, but given this fact we should still try to create a peaceful world.

            • Justas🇱🇹@sh.itjust.works
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              5 months ago

              You switch cause and effect, realism tries to describe the word as is and not as it should be and then bases policies on that.

              It’s less of a linear relationship and more of a feedback loop. The more politicians buy into this political theory, the more effect it has on the world and vice versa.

              yet the world is still made up of poker chips and superpowers.

              Iran is a good example of being neither. There are also a bunch of non-state actors who challenge the status quo. Realism fails to explain Al Qaeda, Taliban and ISIS joining the poker table.

              Commercial actors are also become more and more powerful and their interests often do not align with those of the state. Google and Meta have a higher revenue than several countries and is capable of influencing public opinion.

              Realism fails to explain how all superpowers fall apart from within or from outside forces eventually. Where is the British Empire? Where is the Dutch Empire? Where are the Romans?

              Of course the policies you choose based on realist principles can be used to increase your power as a country

              It can also be used to lose your power, destroy your credibility and sabotage your economy. Realism also doesn’t take soft power into account. You can easily trade your soft power for hard power but it is very difficult to get soft power back.

              (given the limitations of the natural anarchic state of international politics).

              But international politics are governed by international law and various treaties. Just because some countries can break international law and get away with it, doesn’t mean that the law itself is meaningless.

              As a Dutch person I accept that the US can decide to turn the Netherlands into a nuclear testing ground whenever it wants and there is nothing we can do about that, but given this fact we should still try to create a peaceful world.

              You can do a lot about it, from petitioning other governments to cease diplomatic relations to terrorism. Even a small country, like the Netherlands, is a complex social system with it’s own interests and guiding principles and not just a chip in political games of giants.

        • mozz@mbin.grits.devOP
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          Who are the others?

          I think John Mearshimer’s analysis of the situation is extremely accurate on the whole, but what he says is very different from what you’re saying.

          1. He describes the origin of the conflict as a misunderstanding between Russia and the West - where the West isn’t actually trying to provoke Russia, but their actions are interpreted as hostile. Actually Mearshimer’s analysis in this respect is a lot of where I got my own view on it.
          2. He says that Russia’s goal at this point is to simply smash Ukraine completely, to teach the world a lesson about what will happen to anyone who tries to make them feel unsafe. You might agree with that (it sounds like maybe you do), but certainly that’s not the consensus view on Hexbear from what I’ve seen - it would make you an outlier compared to them I think.

          From which respected academic did you get the idea that the West was provoking Russia on purpose by expanding to include countries Russia was attacking or threatening (which presumably then weren’t themselves the driving force wanting NATO or EU membership)?

          • arymandias@feddit.de
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            I’m not trying to represent all of Hexbear, my views differ from the norm (just as yours seems to differ from the lemmy.world norm).

            Second, I don’t want to give the impression that I’m certain on everything. It just seems very clear to me that the current narrative is dangerous and risks leading to escalation beyond Ukraine and has already caused a lot of suffering, (I think in this I echo Mearsheimers views, see the recent interview on the Spectators Americano podcast). Wether it was intentional or accidental I purposely left open in my original comment because, like I said, it’s very hard to judge at this point. But given the US trackrecord it’s probably a healthy dosis of both overconfidence in their power as well as cynical intent.

            To me it’s hard to imagine that after Russia put their army on the border and explicitly said, Ukraine stays neutral or war, that the US wasn’t aware of the consequences. Clearly Ukrainian lives were not on the forefront of their decision making process at that point. So then the question is what was.
            But these are my personal opinions, and I’m happy to be convinced otherwise (but calling me a Russian bot is not very convincing I find).

            • mozz@mbin.grits.devOP
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              the current narrative is dangerous and risks leading to escalation beyond Ukraine and has already caused a lot of suffering

              I would say it’s all the shelling and rocket attacks and bombings, not so much the narrative.

              In general I think trying to talk and understand the world is not a hostile act. If you’re trying to deliberately distort honest conversation to justify something, then that’s a bad thing, but just saying that some sincere narrative right or wrong can be a dangerous thing all on its own, I don’t agree with.

              To me it’s hard to imagine that after Russia put their army on the border and explicitly said, Ukraine stays neutral or war, that the US wasn’t aware of the consequences.

              Bro

              What if I put a couple of my friends on the border of your house, and explicitly said, hey if you try to do X Y or Z then I might have to kill you. What’s your reaction? What’s fair in that scenario? If you ask for some allies to come over because you plan on doing X Y and Z anyway and fuck the border-standers, does it all of a sudden become the allies’ fault that any of that happened? What you’re saying is just a very weird allocation of blame to me.

              Like I say, what Mearsheimer says on this issue actually makes a good deal of sense to me, but what you’re saying here is very different from what he says about it, as far as I know. I think one of the critical issues is whether the whole thing was a “ploy” by the West – he definitely doesn’t think that, that I’m aware of. Where did you get that idea? It definitely doesn’t seem to me that fighting between Russia and various former-USSR states needed any additional help in order to develop, although I’m sure the US is happy it’s happening and happy to help it go badly for Russia.

              Clearly Ukrainian lives were not on the forefront of their decision making process at that point.

              I think it’s relevant what the Ukrainians think. Are you saying that rejecting Russia’s orders for what they were and were not allowed to do, knowing that Russia might attack them as a result, was not their decision but someone else’s? What do you think they think about it?

              Here’s a little excerpt, somewhat related, from “Sky Above Kharkiv” by Serhiy Zhadan:

              "And I’d like to make another point. I was rather skeptical of the current government. I was struck by one particular thing. The elections of 2019 brought a lot of young people to power – not my peers (I’m a far cry from being young) but a bunch of political youngsters who didn’t belong to dozens of parties or hadn’t worked for all kinds of shady cabinets of ministers. ‘But why do these young people,’ I thought, ‘act like old functionaries from the Kuchma era? Where did their childish urge to make a quick buck and flaunt it come from? Why aren’t they trying to be different?’ Thing is, I personally had the chance to do what I still consider rather constructive, useful things with a lot of them – everyone from ministers to mayors and governors. Nonetheless, I’d look toward the Parliament building and ask myself, ‘Why aren’t you trying to be different?’

              “Now [in wartime] with the naked eye you can see them trying to be different. Advisers, speakers, ministers, negotiators, officers, mayors, and commanders – these forty-year-old boys and girls whose generation has been dealt the cruel lot of having to stand up for their country. And this applies no less (and possibly even more) to the millions of soliders, volunteer fighters, and just regular people pitching in, people shedding the swampy legacy of the twentieth century, like mud falling off new, yet well-chosen combat boots. Young Ukrainian men and women – that’s who this war of annihilation is being waged against. And then, in contrast, are the heads of Russia, Belarus, America, and Germany. The first two are old delusional geezers from the past century who look a lot like old Russian armored vehicles, but they’re old. And they’re Russian, which, in itself, does little to recommend a vehicle. Then there are the latter two – they’re cautious office clerks, retired capitulators who aren’t brave enough to admit that they, too, are involved in what’s going on.”

              • arymandias@feddit.de
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                5 months ago

                What do you think started, and kept WWI going, narrative. Every party believed or was sold that they could win this thing if they just kept climbing the escalation ladder. With the result that an entire generation of boys and men was gone for basically nothing.

                What if I put a couple of my friends on the border of your house, and explicitly said, hey if you try to do X Y or Z then I might have to kill you.

                For a start I would not do X, Y and Z, this is the whole idea of realism, accept the world as is. Threats work, I’m sorry. If your response is to call the police, there is no police in the world of international politics, you have to play the hand you’re dealt.

                And in the case of Ukraine this was sadly a very bad hand, that is why I don’t blame Ukraine for much. You could of course blame Ukraine for being lured by the power of the US, and that they could thus safely ignore dire warnings from Russia. But as they say, with great power comes great responsibility, so I choose to put the blame at the hands of Russia and the US.

                • mozz@mbin.grits.devOP
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                  What do you think started, and kept WWI going

                  • An entanglement of defensive allegiances
                  • Increased industrialization meaning that nations could field an army undergoing massive attrition for years and years without suffering a crippling lack of production at home, and
                  • Lack of understanding on the part of political leaders of how the face of war had changed

                  narrative. Every party believed or was sold that they could win this thing if they just kept climbing the escalation ladder.

                  I mean… not really. Surely, at the time, the “dangerous” narrative was anything against the war. To me, allowing a freer flow of ideas would have helped to resolve the war sooner, and deciding that certain narratives were dangerous and should be stayed away from (leading to difficulty in understanding what was happening) was a factor that made things worse, not better. No?

                  For a start I would not do X, Y and Z, this is the whole idea of realism, accept the world as is. Threats work, I’m sorry.

                  I am glad that you are not involved in the foreign policy of either Ukraine or any country I care about. There is realism, sure; the world is not always a comic book where being righteous is enough. Then, also, there is cowardice, and then beyond that there is saying that someone else who is rejecting cowardice is to be blamed (along with anyone who gives them assistance in standing up) for danger they find themselves in as a result.

                  Ukraine seems likely to be able to hold on to a significant chunk of their territory and self determination, after deciding to pay a heavy heavy price for it, in homes and cities and money and lives and anything else. You can take your condescending stuff about realism and whose decision that was, and what kind of lives under Russian rule they should be resigning themselves to instead, and shove it up your ass.

                • Belastend@lemmy.world
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                  that line of reasoning essentially makes every single US invasion ok. and every single oppression okay. Because threats work and fuck you for being weaker.

                • YeetPics@mander.xyz
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                  5 months ago

                  narrative

                  Why would Joe Biden provide tools of narration to all those WW1 powers

        • iarigby@lemmy.world
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          primarily from all the bombs Russia dropped on my country when we dared to move past the swamp that Soviet Union drowned us in and decided to join NATO so Russia would not invade us the third time. And from the torture I have seen done to the war prisoners and civilians they abducted from around the occupation lines.

          Your argument violently disregards the human beings in Ukraine and Georgia who have tragically suffered for generations under Russian oppression, and are ready to fight to death rather than return to being slaves of those disgusting imperialistic maniacs again. western communists or edgy political scientists or whatever reason/intention you have for talking so extremely condescendingly about these conflicts literally forget that we are actual people who have themselves made a decision to regain independence and chose the alliance with the west. We are being terrorized, murdered, tortured and raped by Russians to force us back to their repulsive and disgusting empire, which was such literal hell that thousands upon thousands of Ukrainians keep choosing death over going back. These are our countries and I aggressively despise anybody who so much as entertains the reasoning where we require permission and approval from fucking Russia. There is a single solely responsible party in these wars, the one that occupied a sovereign country and committed such horrific acts of cruelty that even hearing about it leaves a person traumatized.

          The nuance that the academic you named tries to argue for, I assume has many interesting points and arguments, but for a very specific discussion topic and a narrowly justified aspect of this war, only with people who are in touch with reality about the Ukraine war, conflicts in Georgia, history and goals of Russia, etc. But here it can be seen as nothing else but intent to shift blame and responsibility away from the aggressor, and an attempt to advocate for the loons on hexbear celebrating bloodshed and masturbating to the idea of independent sovereign nation being crushed by brutal, authoritarian, and savage state.

    • RubberDuck@lemmy.world
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      For OP: This above is the Russian talking points light, presented as a reasonable timeline. It glances over so much important stuff.

      Hexbear is a group of useful idiots steered by the Russian MOD. Anything that destabilized their adversaries is good. This als means feeding a wide array of victim blaming, feeding competing narratives and generally making people question if there actually is a truth.

      Shut up about NATO expansion