The problem aren’t babies, its funding those babies. Raising children is fucking expensive, and in the age of infinite growth nobody is allowed to slowdown to raise children. Adoption centers and foster homes are abysmal, and having kids is too expensive for most people.
The rich dont want to pay for peoples kids, they just want to squeeze the value out them. Thats why Elon and his vice president trump wants more H-1B visas. They don’t have to pay for the childcare or education, they can just drain educated workers from another struggling country
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Good news boys, if we’re willing to use women this way, we can actually do the same for men! This is one unique sexual reproduction horror story that can in theory be inflicted on both sexes!
Pregnancy without a uterus, impossible! You say. But ectopic pregnancies are a thing. We all start out as parasites. As an embryo develops, it looks for a surface of flesh rich in blood vessels to latch onto. The primary function of the uterus is to provide an inner lining that is sort of a “disposable surface.” The inner lining is rich in blood vessels, the ideal environment for a zygote to latch onto and grow from. The embryo can integrate its blood vessels with the uterine lining and thoroughly mess those up. Then after pregnancy the whole inner lining is just sloughed off. That in inelegant terms is the uterus - an organ that produces a nice safe surface for the zygote to latch onto that won’t harm the person carrying the pregnancy.
But, things don’t always go well. If a zygote somehow tears through the uterine wall, then ectopic pregnancy, pregnancy outside the uterus, can result. And this a serious life-threatening medical condition. The fetus as it develops will latch onto not the intended uterine surface, but the vital abdominal organs. Giving “birth” in this case is done surgically, and it’s more akin to cutting out a cancer than a healthy live birth.
But while it hasn’t been tried due to the obvious health risks and huge medical ethics issues, there’s little reason to think that ectopic pregnancies couldn’t be carried in a male admomen. DNA and chromosomes shouldn’t be a barrier. The placenta that the fetus grows is evolved to prevent the fetus from being rejected like a donor organ. It’s not like mothers and infants share their DNA.
So in theory we could use men in vegetative states as one-time use surrogates. There has been research proposed and papers written on the possibility of trans women carrying children via uterine transplant, but this method, deliberate artificial ectopic pregnancy, is in principle a lot simpler. You don’t need to transplant a delicate organ and find a way to carry a pregnancy while taking anti-rejection drugs. You just implant an embryo in the surrogate abdomen and let it go to town. Let it latch in to whatever internal organs it wants. Then after nine months, just cut open and discard the surrogate father.
It wouldn’t be as simple as just implanting an embryo. The pregnant vegetative man would likely need to have his hormone profile monitored and heavily manipulated. But this is easy enough. Testosterone production could be nuked by simple castration, and erogenous estrogen and progesterone could then be introduced as needed before and during the pregnancy. After the pregnancy, it is unlikely the man would survive. So this is a one time deal. But if we’re OK treating people in persistent vegetative states like resources to be exploited, I see no reason to throw out half of our potential surrogate population simply because they happen to be men.
as long as you can guarantee i’m actually braindead and not trapped inside or something, eh, ill be dead anyway.
I mean, sure. I have no problem with people signing up for this thing voluntarily. But it should never be something you can be opted into by default, like organ donation in some locales.
im actually ok with opt in organ donorship by default
Sure. So am I. Opt-in posthumous gestation? Not so much.
No, you don’t understand, people’s lives can only be thrown away in accordance with tradition. Men die in wars, women are exploited for children. You can’t cross the beams, frogs will turn gay!
You will get this passed as soon as we have a gender neutral draft and 50-50% wartime casualties between genders.
Basically face hugger reproduction from the Alien franchise?
Essentially yes. Again, we all start as parasites. A uterus primarily is just a way for pregnancy to be survivable. But in theory it is perfectly doable in males.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_pregnancy#Ectopic_implant
As that article notes, pioneers in reproductive healthcare have even commented that it would likely be possible. We just don’t do it because it’s medically unconscionable to deliberately create an ectopic pregnancy. It goes against the whole, “and first, do no harm” principle. But if we’re throwing ethics to the wind and involuntarily impregnating people we consider already dead anyway, why not do the same to males?
I hope this doesn’t awaken anything in me…
Tap for spoiler
It most certainly did.
The fact that anyone would need this amount of mental gymnastics to find reason enough to relate to the women potentially being targeted, to be against it, is pretty fucked up in its own right.
A large part of how patriarchy works is that men aren’t expected to, so often don’t, give a shit about the harm it causes until something impacts them directly, and even then, they will only actively oppose it if it harms them significantly more than what the patriarchy benefits them (toxic masculinity being a prime example of self harm many men are reluctant to fight).
Catering to this feature of the system only perpetuates it. Stop creating convoluted ways for them to relate (even “your mothers and sisters” shouldn’t be needed), and start expecting, and demanding, they simply consider and therefor treat all humans equally (which magically leads to caring about what happens to women just as much as they would if it were men under threat).
With all due respect, you seem to be actively seeking to be offended. This comes down to bodily autonomy. And providing an example of how this effects everyone is not some monstrous thing perpetuating the patriarchy. I think you’re a little too deep in the gender theory here.
I’m a trans person. I have had to fight for bodily autonomy my entire life. The fight for bodily autonomy is what ultimately connects trans rights with what are traditionally labeled “women’s issues.” Ultimate the right to abortion or contraception is about the right of everyone to bodily autonomy. To have final ownership and control of your own flesh and blood effects women’s reproductive rights, trans rights, the right to die, organ donation, etc. This goes way beyond just traditional women’s issues.
And honestly, the scenario isn’t convoluted or absurd. If the government did ever allow this kind of surrogacy, there would be no need to confine it to just one sex. Hell, I would be actively petitioning to apply it to everyone regardless of sex. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, and I AM that pettty. I would absolutely demand that atrocities be applied equally. And if we’re doing this, we’re probably also doing involuntary organ donation. So again it all comes back to bodily autonomy.
What is horrifying about this proposal is not that it would be done to women. What is horrifying about it is that it would be done to human beings. And I don’t feel the need to throw up artificial barriers and get offended that someone would dare to point out the broader implications of this beyond narrowly defined and ghettoized “women’s issues.”
The amount of babies isn’t the issue America, it’s the fact that we can’t afford them.
Okay, but imagine if you could have one really rich guy impregnate a thousand captive comatose women at once, to improve efficiency.
From a Lomgtermist perspective, this would be great for the future of our Brave New World
What I really hate about longtermism is that it actually tells us nothing about what policies are best, as we don’t know what paths will lead to the best future.
You could argue that low taxes on billionaires will give them the resources needed to do space colonisation. Thus, in the long term, not taxing billionaires now is good. Or you could argue that a robust social safety net and UBI is the best path to a long term best future. How many Einsteins throughout history died illiterate peasants? By providing resources for everyone, we maximize our chances of the truly talented having a shot at elevating us all through new science and discoveries.
Hell, I could even justify a nuclear war through longtermism. Economies grow more worn-in and sclerotic over time. Every so often you need a historical arsonist like Alexander the Great or Genghis Khan to run through an area, burn the existing order to ashes, and give people a chance to start again. Existing elites prevent necessary change. And often the only way to remove them is to burn everything down. On the next attempt at civilization, they can learn from their predecessor’s mistakes. For example, destroying the fossil fuel industry now is effectively impossible; they’re simply far too entrenched and powerful. By voluntarily starting a global thermonuclear war, we will smash their power. Civilization can then rebuild powered entirely by solar and wind. Yes, we lose 90% of the human population today, but we prevent total human extinction via complete biosphere collapse, which appears to be the road we are on now. From the long term perspective, deliberately starting a global thermonuclear war is the only rational choice.
Climate Change is good for humanity because killing off the bulk of life on earth will give us a fresh slate to build on.
~ Op-Ed at the Atlantic or WSJ or some other smug contrarian navel gazers warehouse
Axlotl tanks?
The more I learn about the Frank Herbert novels, the more I realize how prescient and relevant they are to this day.
Literally the plot of Shinsekai Yori (don’t watch Shinsekai Yori, it will fuck you up)
To be fair to them, when the rat queen was fully conscious, she freely killed / maimed / raped her own kind.
I don’t want to excuse Squealer’s actions, any more than I would Hitler’s, but I will say that he rightfully upset a horrific “natural order” likely imposed by earlier humans
Seems like a super-nerdy medical idea that would work without capitalism and has nothing to do with capitalism.
A lot of things terminally online people claim is capitalism has nothing to do with it.
My brother in christ, this is not OG sleeping beauty, wtf. How did they expect that conversation to go down?
“Yes, I know your daughter is brain dead, but good news, she will be able to breed for the nation! What? You don’t like the idea of state sanctioned rape and forced breeding?” It baffles me that some people really just see women as a vessal. No thoughts on how horrific that would be for any woman going into the hospital (if something goes wrong, I don’t even get a respectful death), and for their families should one of the worse case scenarios occur (“You can bury her after we’ve popped out a few wave slaves”). Not even thoughts on the children that would be produced by such horrors.
Literally anything than make the world a better place for people to raise children in.
No one sees Women as a Vassal buddy, but you do see Unborn Children as a “Cluster of cells” that can be murdered at a whim
If they’re suggesting the brain dead body of a woman be kept alive solely to breed, that’s very vassal like to me.
I regards to abortion, I absolutely believe that people start as a cluster of cells and would choose the mother’s life, livelihood, and happiness before the cluster. I think people that are “pro-life” are virtue signaling sycophants that are more concerned with being “right” over actually doing anything to help people. Imagine how many less abortions there would be if they put half of that energy into sex education, better access to contraception, and accessible education and extra curriculars. Imagine some of that energy pointed to the kids already here and needing support and care. But nah. Let’s all stand outside of a medical facility and scare the patients and be assholes online. For the cluster. 🙄
but you do see Unborn Children as a “Cluster of cells” that can be murdered at a whim
Do you consider acorns to be trees?
Ummm yesh, they’re future trees Do you think women’s lives are equal to that of an Acorn’s ?
Is an egg a chicken?
You’ll be pleased to know that it would be perfectly possible to use men in persistent vegetative states as well. In theory, it’s perfectly possible for a male to carry a pregnancy ectopically. It just hasn’t been done, because as the embryo grows, it latches onto and messes up the internal organs. The placenta has to be cut out like a cancer afterwards.
But if we’re using people in vegetative states like this, there’s no reason to throw out half of our potential surrogates. Males in vegetative states could easily be used as one time use surrogates. You first castrate the male to nuke testosterone production. Then you introduce estrogen and progesterone. Finally you implant an embryo in the abdominal cavity. After it grows to term, you remove it surgically and let the surrogate father die.
The Bene Tleilaxu approve this plan.
Damn it is can never come up with an original quip.
I don’t know what this has to do with capitalism. This sounds like a shitty lab experiment which can happen under any form of government or economy. Oh wait I checked and it’s from .ML. I am posting this in the hopes to get banned from that entire instance because blocking didn’t seem to work.
Oh hey capitalism wants to create the Daemonculaba.
I’ve been watching too many medical dramas and think that this would make a neat episode if done correctly. Like if a woman had agreed to be a surrogate for her gay brother and made it explicitly clear that she wanted it to occur even if she was in an accident and brain dead. There’s a lot of moral issues and it would be interesting to see them play out in a fantasy universe.
I can’t imagine a situation where this would be OK in real life, to be clear.
Literally the plot of Shin Sekai Yori (2008).
that paper has GOT to be a thinly veiled gruesome fetish manuscript, involving at least a couple corpses.
The spice must flow. The Tlielaxu will have their Axolotl Tanks.
This is seriously fucked up, but I don’t get the capitalism part of it?
They are proposing a human body factory for producing wage slaves.
they are proposing a human body factory for producing humans. you’re the one calling them wage slaves. it’s some gruesome Frankenstein shit but has nothing to do with C word
Why do they need more humans? For workers obviously.
You know what happens when workers become scarce? They are no longer expendable, which means each person has more employment power. This happened after the black death. So many peasants died that the power dynamic shifted and they were free to choose their employers.
They are heavily invested in keeping the population up.
WHO IS “THEY”?! this is the way paranoid delusions sound! you are so quick to find an answer that you don’t even consider the entire question
