If Russia withdrew their troops, there would be peace immediately.
If Ukraine withdrew their troops, Ukraine would be no more - and there’s no indication Russia would stop there.
Lots of LLM bots today. We may need to start verifying accounts :/
I’ve been noticing this a lot. There’s a lot more Russian support in all my apps. I really think there’s a concerted effort that is now being fully enabled by our current administration.
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There wasn’t peace before Russia invaded. The far-right US puppet regime was slaughtering ethnic Russians in the east, and allowing NATO to move in troop and missile deployments to the Russian border.
Why would Ukraine behave differently after a Russian withdrawal, when they were escalating for 8 years prior to the invasion?
If Russia withdrew their troops, there would be peace immediately
That’s technically true. However, Russia uses military force in its sphere of influence for a reason, not solely because Putin bad (which he is, I’m a commie and Putin is fascist-adjacent at best).
Russia, like all big capitalist countries, wants to secure a sphere of influence in which it can do easy trade, influence the politics, and generally have support from these countries. The US does this for example with western Europe through NATO, and with less diplomatic methods by supporting coups and invading other countries. China does this through economic trade and through massive investment projects. Russia is in a weak position internationally, barely recovered economically from the dismantling of the USSR, and it’s surrounded by former soviet republics very much in a similar plane (barely economically recovered from the 90s crisis as a consequence of the dismantling of the USSR).
These post-soviet republics, such as Ukraine or Georgia, adopted capitalism (as Russia did) in a very quick and disorderly fashion, and the resulting oligarchs and capitalist owners ended up fumbled in a mix of pro-russian and pro-european/US positions.
The EU and the USA both exert pressure on these countries to try and bring them to their side. Being economically and politically stronger, they can use trade, diplomacy, intelligence and economic means to alienate these countries front the Russian sphere of influence. Russia, in a more precarious and weaker economic and political position, simply doesn’t have the means to maintain the diplomatic, economic and intelligence means to maintain these countries aligned to itself.
The war in Ukraine, much as the interference in Georgian and Romanian elections by the EU, mustn’t be understood as a struggle between freedom and oppression. It’s sadly just a struggle between two capitalist empires, namely Russia and US/EU, fighting for the control of smaller countries that they want aligned to themselves.
Once Russia doesn’t have the means to economically, diplomatically and through intelligence, to influence its former sphere of influence into staying by its side, the only option left is the military route. The US and the EU know this, and they keep trying to mess with Russia’s sphere of influence for gains to their empires. The reality is that there is no good side and no bad side: it’s just struggle between opposing empires.
So yes, technically if Russia withdrew its troops, there would be peace. But this peace would mean that firstly the surrounding regions around Russia, and Russia itself, would become colonies and vassal states of the western world. It wouldn’t mean “freedom” for Ukraine, as we can see by the exploitative contract for the minerals of Ukraine that the US offers. If you think the EU will offer something substantially less exploitative towards Ukrainians, you’re wrong.
Ukraine, sad as it is, as long as it remains a state between empires, will suffer the effects of both. And only socialism in Europe and Russia can offer a meaningful response to this.
- Russia was by no means forced into the conflict. They did it because Putin wants more power for himself.
- Russia has great diplomatic power. They managed to get a Russia loving president in US.
- If Ukraine falls, then there’s going to be some other nation that will be the ”state between empires”. Next will be Moldova. Maybe Russia is brave enough to take on the Baltic countries as well now when the future of NATO is uncertain. If that succeeds, then Poland will be next, and maybe also eastern Germany.
- Ukraine rejected the US offer because it didn’t offer any safety guarantees other than that Trump said that Putin said something. Why should Ukraine sign a deal that won’t end the war?
because Putin wants more power
They managed to get a Russia loving president in US
Holy moly “great men historiography” and “Russia is behind everything I hate” both in one single comment, that’s quite the feat. Great job firstly ignoring the material analysis and geopolitics of the situation and trying to explain history as “big man makes decision”, and then falling for the racist trope that the USA isn’t capable of electing a fascist without external interference, as if the US wasn’t founded in the fascist principles of the Lebensraum and slavery->segregation
If Ukraine falls
Ukraine will not fall. The objective of Russia in this war isn’t pure expansionism further to the west, it’s the imposition of its political principles and strategic desires in its sphere of influence. The Russian government knows it cannot control successfully for a long period of time the now (understandably) anti-Russian radicalised sections of central and western Ukraine, what it wants are concessions in geopolitical and strategic terms. Mark my words: the war in Ukraine will stop sooner than later, and after it, only some sections in eastern Ukraine will be annexed to Russia.
Furthermore your reasoning of “if this nation falls, there’s gonna be the next”, is exactly the way Russia feels about its geopolitical allies. In 1990, there was an agreement that NATO wouldn’t push beyond Germany, and that has been violated first with Poland and then with more countries. Why push a US-backed military alliance to the borders of the US-declared main geopolitical enemy? What consequences do you expect from that? Imagine a Russian-led military coalition pushing for the annexion of Mexico.
Ukraine rejected the US offer because it didn’t offer any safety guarantees
Regardless of safety guarantees, the resources of western Ukraine will be plundered by the NATO block, whether it be EU or the USA I cannot know, but mark my words when you see the economic situation of Ukraine in 2030
Really well explained in both your comments…
Mental gymnastics. Killing innocent people mercilessly is a problem, stop being an insane apologist for slaughter. Peace is peace.
OK, please tell me how the NATO block is any better in this regard, haven’t you literally just been witness to the most open genocide in history and NOBODY in the west did anything to stop it?
What is there to negotiate? If all the russians leave ukraine, ukranians will probably stop shooting them…
Russia has always firmly opposed expansion of NATO, including the missiles and NATO troops that were lined up at their border with Ukraine’s participation.
“The United States should invade a country that might in the future join an alliance to help prevent the US from invading other countries as we have in the past.” Do you realize how fucking stupid your nAtO eXpAnSiOn propaganda sounds!?
I’m literally just plainly stating historical events.
You are doing nothing of the sort, you are literally just regurgitating Putin propaganda.
…that just so happen to line up with the propaganda of the Russian invaders.
Facts don’t stop being facts when a Russian says them. If they’re factually stating the sequence of events, it doesn’t change anything.
Lies don’t become true just because you keep saying “facts”. The Russian propaganda (that you’re parroting) is the untrue part, not the events themselves. Ukraine defending itself against Russia before and during their violent, illegal invasion is not an “expansion” and has nothing to do with NATO. Full stop.
I would go one further. Ukraine trying to join NATO is not a valid reason for an invasion. In fact, I can’t think of any valid reason for an invasion. Invading a country is wrong.
Maybe Ukraine wants to join NATO because they share a border with a gigantic country that wants to conquer them.
Lies don’t become true, right back at you, clown.
Lies aren’t facts, Einstein.
What a fucking clown you are.
NATO wouldn’t need to expand if Russia wasn’t constantly threatening their neighbors.
They’ve only ever threatened their neighbors during NATO expansion efforts.
Russia was threatening their neighbors before NATO even existed.
NATO existed before Russia, genius. It’s an anti-Soviet org.
The Soviet Union was still Russia. They’ve not changed their attitude since then.
Then explain this different government, economy, and borders.
Your immense historical knowledge seems to have missed the fact that Russia existed long before the Soviet Union, Einstein.
You’re proposing that this Russia is the same one? When did they re-establish the czar?
Complete horseshit. They literally invaded and installed a puppet regime in Chechnia, and there were zero NATO “expansion efforts” there. And that is just one example out of many.
They’ve only ever threatened their neighbors during NATO expansion efforts.
This is abuser logic. “If you would quit misbehaving, then I wouldn’t have to hit you!”
It’s an adult understanding of international politics. Aggression rarely goes unanswered.
I’ve always plainly stated that if anyone comes within 2 metres of me, I’m going to stab them. What do you mean, I’m going to prison??!! You knew my rule. I’ve been telling everyone my rule for 20 years.
Do you think that NATO was planning to invade Russia? And if not, then WTF is Putin’s problem?
The primary mission of NATO is aggression with the Soviet Union/Russia. That’s the only reason it exists.
fucking pro ukraine redditors are EVERYWHERE
Lots of propaganda today, seems like someone doesn’t like Zelenskyy or a strong Ukraine.
Slava Ukraine!
Slava Ukraine ? motherfuckers are losing and still choose to fight the war, pride come before the fall.
this is not a video game if you losing give up what you have if there is a ceasefire deal on the table, and I don’t care how much times Putin broke it in the past under that dumb cunt biden that redditors voted in, if he break it this time he knows there will be hell to pay.
Putin knows Trump will do absolutely nothing to enforce any peace agreements involving russia. And at this point everyone knows it too.
We’re fighting because if we stop fighting, we die regardless. Only that way it won’t be loud and noticeable enough so you’ll be able to pretend everything is okay.
How do you know what Putin is thinking? everyone is mindreaders now why don’t you become a fortune teller?
Ukraine, Russia, the DPR and LPR signed a ceasefire agreement, the Minsk Protocol, in September 2014.[40] Ceasefire breaches became rife, 29 in all,[41] and heavy fighting resumed in January 2015, during which the separatists captured Donetsk Airport. A new ceasefire, Minsk II, was agreed on 12 February 2015. Immediately after, separatists renewed their offensive on Debaltseve and forced Ukraine’s military to withdraw.[42] Skirmishes continued but the front line did not change. Both sides fortified their position by building networks of trenches, bunkers and tunnels, resulting in static trench warfare.[43][44] Stalemate led to the war being called a “frozen conflict”,[45] but Donbas remained a war zone, with dozens killed monthly.[46] In 2017, on average a Ukrainian soldier died every three days,[47] with an estimated 40,000 separatist and 6,000 Russian troops in the region.[48][49] By the end of 2017, OSCE observers had counted around 30,000 people in military gear crossing from Russia at the two border checkpoints it was allowed to monitor,[50] and documented military convoys crossing from Russia covertly.[51] All sides agreed to a roadmap for ending the war in October 2019,[52] but it remained unresolved.[53][54] During 2021, Ukrainian fatalities rose sharply and Russian forces massed around Ukraine’s borders.[55] Russia recognised the DPR and LPR as independent states on 21 February 2022 and deployed troops to those territories. On 24 February, Russia began a full-scale invasion of Ukraine, subsuming the war in Donbas into it.
Make no Mistake: Russia is trying to destroy Ukraine since 2014. Russia is the agressor and needs to put in its place.
Russia is trying to destroy Ukraine ever since both of them were founded as independent counties. This is just a reiteration of what we’ve already seen in the russian empire and in the USSR. History is a merry-go-round and I’m getting motion sick of all the rotation.
Edit: typo
Goes back to the Russian Revolution at the very least, though probably to the the Russian Empire. Historical data send to suggest that the Russian elite will not accept anyone but Russian hegemony over the region. The Bolsheviks betrayed the Ukrainian Anarcho-Communists who had helped to defeat the White army because they wanted independent self-governance rather than bowing to the Bolsheviks’ authoritarian Central Council in Moscow.
This is just a reiteration of what we’ve already seen in the russian empire and in the USSR
Comparing the Russian Empire and the USSR is the most ahistorical thing you can possibly do. During the Russian Empire and for all of history before that, Ukraine was a people without a nation. Oppressed, without representation, without borders, without a right to education or even learning to read in their language.
The Bolsheviks, with their first constitution in 1917, granted the right to self-determination and secession to all peoples of the former Russian Empire, which Lenin referred to as “the prison of peoples”. Quite literally after Poland seceded in this legal fashion, the Polish government decided it wanted to return to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth borders, and proceeded to unilaterally invade Ukraine and part of modern Belarus. It was the Red Army of the Russian Socialist Federation of Soviet Republics, that fought off the Polish invasion and established a lasting Ukrainian People’s Republic for the first time in history.
This wasn’t without controversy: while Lenin argued for the right to representation and to a Ukrainian Republic within the USSR, others like Rosa Luxembourg argued for a united, more homogeneous sort of socialist soviet nationality that outgrew former nationalisms. It is partially thanks to Lenin that Ukraine ended up having its own borders, administration and representation.
I know what you’ll say: “but Holodomor! Genocide against Ukrainians!”. The famine of the USSR was a sad and unintended consequence of bad policy during the collectivisation/dekulakization process of the early 30s. Millions of people died both within Ukraine and without it, especially as well in Central Asia and southern Russia. As bad as it was, and as avoidable as one can argue it may have been, there’s simply no evidence of any intent of attack towards Ukrainian people, it’s not precedented by anything similar, and it’s not followed by anything similar in the entire history of the USSR.
In those decades and the ones to come, Ukraine would obtain and solidify its own nationality, people would for the first time obtain generalised literacy in their own language, the right to study in their language up to university level, a majority of publications (both journalistic and literary) in Ukrainian, and the very next president of the USSR Nikita Khruschchyov would be Ukrainian.
Attempting to construe a history of oppression of Ukrainians in the USSR is nothing but fictitious, anti-communist and russophobic propaganda, meant to create a divide between Ukrainians and Russians. There are clear geopolitical reasons to do so, and there are clear reasons why Ukrainians are very much afraid or simply hate Russians, because of the modern proto-fascist state that the Russian Republic has become. But creating a line between this capitalist country, the socialist USSR, and the feudalist Russian Empire, is simply an attempt to divide Eastern Europe further and to push Ukraine towards the EU and away from Russia. This point can be argued for without resorting to russophobic and anticommunist myths. We’re smarter than this.
Nah, USSR discarded socialism and communism the moment Lenin decided he didn’t like losing the elections, and Stalin made it worse for decades. There’s nothing anti-communist in calling out an authoritarian dictatorship for what it was.
During the Soviet times there were repeated attempts to homogenize (as you said) all non-russian ethnicities into one big Soviet mass, easy to manage and control. Russian language, culture and values were held as the supposedly communist ideal future at the cost of national identity, replaced by pretense of representation.
Not just Holodomor, but also forced relocations of Ukrainians, Belarusians, Crimean Tatars and other Eastern European ethnicities contributed to that.
So, maybe tune down on Soviet apologia in front of people whose parents and grandparents literally had to live there.
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The US won the physical war but lost the soft war to Russia.
The US is being couped, and we need to dethrone them before it’s too late.
In what way did the US win the physical war? Russia is still occupying a lot of the disputed territory.
It is time that the world recognized that the USA is just like Russia and China. Never, ever to be trusted. All the pretense has fallen away under Trump but the real America, supported by 70% of its population, is showing its true colours. They’ve bullied their “Allies” for 70 years to be their friends, but they’ve never been a friend back. It’s all been a guise to get whatever they wanted and steal all the riches a country could produce or make other country’s industry beholden to American corporations. While previous American Administrations may have believed in the soft power their approach yielded and understood how it made the USA rich, Trump does not.
Europe is learning right now that the American people can’t be trusted.
This ^^^ so much
Do not trust Russia, and do not trust the US under current administration, or while the GOP still exists. We in the rest of the world are ON OUR OWN and must band together against this push of fascism across the world. This is not a drill, this is not a joke. Fascism is again on the rise, as it was in the 1930s. We all know where that led, so don’t let it do so again!
Negotiations without security assurances*
This is the prime stickler with the USA-Ukraine deal that has been discussed on the news
Putin needs to lose something or he’ll just invade someone else.
He only ever invades in response to NATO expansion. Maybe the west should stop trying to move in.
I wasn’t aware he invaded Finland and Sweden already
Oh bother, you’ve upset the tankies, who totally haven’t just been Russian trolls the entire time.
Reminder: Russia violated all of these uninformed.
Also, why is this posted here? This is not a meme.
Because memes aren’t journalism: you got any sources?
Memes aren’t journalism, but this is a meme community, not a news community. However, one could argue that this is not exactly a meme, so your point is fair.
I’d still like to get the sources. Otherwise, content like this is like disinformation spreads. Meme community or not.
Whats wrong here? It should always be ok to ask for sources!
In this case the research is significant and it is reasonable to assume that avid readers here know the sources and need less research to respond quickly.
Here a quick overview:
Minsk Protocol (Sept 5, 2014)
Early on both sides supported militant groups with arms (e.g. the far right right Azov group for Ukraine and DPR for Russia), the governments did agree to a ceasefire, the groups didn’t care and both sides violated it numerous times. Ukrainian supported troops were shelling near Donetsk (Sept 20, 2014) and the DPR executed full scale attacks. https://web.archive.org/web/20141023221330/http://www.skynews.com.au/news/world/mideast/2014/10/23/ukraine-rebels-vow-to-take-back-cities.html
Minsk II (Feb 12, 2015)
Ukraine did shell Horlivka (March 10, 2015) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Horlivka , killed civilians; claimed retaliation. The DPR tried to capture Debaltseve right before the ceasefire and failed to do so completely before it came into effect. As a result fighting within the city continued and the DPR even claimed the ceasefire did not include Debaltseve. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Debaltseve so this was also violated by Ukraine too, but now we see a shift towards more Russian violations.
Later violations
The last violations where Ukraine can be assigned any noticeable role in are around 2020. Now that the military is more organized the troops do follow ceasefire orders more strictly and violations for ceasefires after 2020 can be nearly unilaterally assigned to the Russian side. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements (follow the links from there to more recent ceasefires)
So the image/meme is mostly true but also propaganda (as to be expected). I also do not know where the number of 20 agreements comes from. I do know/find details of about 8. Maybe somebody else can provide a list?
So in summary: The message is true. Russia and mainly the DPR troops they support can not be trusted to follow ceasefires as long as the conditions at the front do not significantly change.
I like sticking to the facts and do not agree with the presentation in the image, but at least its still way way closer to the truth than Russian propaganda. In this case sticking to the facts would even have sent the same message and not give the Russians any point where they can base their counterpoint on. On the other side differentiated and detailed analysis is not that well suited to steer up emotions and support for the cause.
Thank you, seriously. It’s really exhausting how much resistance you face when you try to question Ukrainian propaganda.
This isn’t disinformation unless you don’t believe Zelensky. Besides that, we’re talking about large scale violations.
If you go digging you’ll find literally 10s of thousands of violations, shit just look at this from 2017 https://osce.usmission.gov/on-russias-ongoing-violations-in-ukraine-12/
I suggest using a search engine.
This isn’t disinformation unless you don’t believe Zelensky.
yeah, not exactly the most unbiased source, I recon. If something is disinformation or not shouldn’t really hinge on whether you believe someone, btw.
Besides that, we’re talking about large scale violations.
So? Even easier to get sources, right?And even more suspicious that it doesn’t ring any bells.
The sources you supplied are literally participants in the NATO/Russia conflict.
I suggest using a search engine.
Pardon my French, but: Screw you.
Well the source is one of a number that document violations of the Minsk agreement. You don’t just need to read that one and it’s from 8 years ago I just grabbed it to show how long Russia has been ignoring their related ceasefire agreements. I think the source is relatively neutral but you are right it may have some bias, it’s about as neutral as English language sources come though.
I think this post may be off in interpreting or wording because Russia has had major violations of a number of treaties, notably recently the Minsk agreement but I think Zelensky is talking about 25 major violations not 25 separate agreements.
Regardless of all of that, Russia has a very long history of not honoring their truces and ceasefires and using them as a reprieve to beef up their military forces before continuing to fight.
Your French has been pardoned but fuck you too pal.
The source still is the US government, i.e. NATO. It can hardly be interpreted as impartial.
You’re touching on why “just google it” is a horrible advice: sources in english language will emphasize the western consensus who have a vested interest in weakening Russia and are in an active economical war with Russia. it’s really hard to find english speaking, impartial sources.
From what I found online, while the claims of “genocide” are blown out of proportion, Ukraine has still also violated the Minsk treaty by attacking Donbas.
I think it’s important to note that I don’t want to condone neither Russia, nor Ukraine. Even if everything is true about Russian minorities in the Donbas: I don’t think that being conscripted is too much better. But I also think that the Ukrainian state is using its’ own population as cannon-fodder to fight a proxy war for the west (if it weren’t a proxy war, the changing stance of the US wouldn’t be as big of a problem).
Fuck states. All of them. No war but class war.
What do you want me to say, that it’s clear Russia continually violates ceasefire for the past 20 years of various nation states?
Like idk you can go find plenty of sources that say that I’m sure some won’t be in English but you’re not going to ever find something from Russia themselves that says “yeah we violated this shit”
I absolutely agree on your point about misinformation. I was trying to hint that maybe none of this belongs here, despite me personally resonating with the “meme”. I guess I am just rambling, don’t mind me.
- “Opinion”
- Paywalled
Use archive.is to circumvent paywall.
Zelensky should have said that to Orange Krasnov and the other fucking Russian assets.
I’m all for diplomacy. Finding diplomatic solutions to these kinds of problems is the ideal outcome.
When it’s not ideal and you’re dealing with someone irrational or uncooperative, then maybe fighting isn’t the worst way to go.
Bluntly, I support Ukraine. They’re clearly trying to make diplomacy work.
I can’t say the same for Putin/Russia.
In some book there were cannons stamped with “the ultimate reason of kings”. Seems appropriate here.
Quicksilver by Neal Stephenson maybe?
Sounds on brand for him, because Snow Crash has a rail gun named Reason.
They will listen to reason.
Yeah remember that one :-)
“But Putin is my BFF, he pinky promised that he would not do it again.”
His only hope is going to be assassinating Putin and hope the next person ends it.
