• call_me_xale@lemmy.zip
        144·
        4 days ago

        The fact that someone else fixed the issue doesn’t really excuse the absolutely unacceptable original response to a very reasonable request.

        I’m much more interested in seeing an apology, or any sort of indication that the dev understands how disrespectful they were.

    • fl42v@lemmy.ml
      129·
      4 days ago

      Lmao, a weird choice of a hill to die on. Although, given I’ve seen ppl refer to a user account as “he” exactly 0 times before that, I suspect the dev may speak smth like French natively, where everything is either male or female.

      That said, i’d rather use “it” instead of “they”, given an account (and anon one at that) is not a person.

        • fl42v@lemmy.ml
          5·
          4 days ago

          Huh, checked out their noun genders, and those are quite interesting: 2 genders, but common and neuter instead of masculine and feminine. So out goes that theory

          • Petter1@lemm.ee
            1·
            4 days ago

            Imagine explaining gendering to a person used to ise a language where it isn’t existing 🤔 of course, it seems unnecessary for that person

            Or have I understood that wrong?

            • kekmacska@lemmy.zipEnglish
              4·
              3 days ago

              Hungarian language for example is completly genderless. 2 pronouns are used: ő (person, more intelligent animals), ez/az (depending on the first letter) (objects, less intelligent animals)

            • fl42v@lemmy.ml
              2·
              4 days ago

              Not exactly. In English, stuff that’s not a person is of neutral gender, i.e. just “it” (unless the speaker has an affection towards it, then it’s usually a “she”). In other languages stuff also has “genders”, like “la chambre” (the French* for “a room”) is a “she”.

              So, my initial guess was that the dev natively speaks some language, where a user is a “he”, and ppl don’t have a concept of a neutral gender. But in case of Swedish there are 2 variants of “it” for things, so it seems incorrect.

              * I’m using French instead of, for example, Russian here due to it not having a neutral gender, while Russian has “it” and something akin to “they” (like “задира”, the Russian for a bully). Although, I may be wrong here, since I’ve started learning French quite recently, and may’ve missed smth.

        • Eyck_of_denesle@lemmy.zip
          112·
          4 days ago

          Like the comment I replied to. I understand calling people out but that is such an irrelevant topic to the discussion.

          It’s not always sunshine and rainbows but I don’t see the need to whine about every little thing.

          Also note that I’m being fair here. Majority people who are not into foss simply avoid it because of how often they see people bitching about said foss products. It’s just not a good look.

          • Turret3857@infosec.pubEnglish
            87·
            4 days ago

            I mean I understand why you feel that way but if someone were to refer to me as a woman, as a cis guy I would take it as a sign of disrespect, so I feel more obliged to take the side of the people who are complaining. I feel it is somewhat relevant considering one of the projects mentioned is developed by the people in the link.

  • Possibly linux@lemmy.zipEnglish
    13·
    4 days ago

    I’m not sure I have a lot of faith in Servo but we are in need of anything better than Gecko. Ladybird is the new one on the block and we will see if it goes anywhere. I like that Ladybird it’s own web browser.

    • Mwa@lemm.eeEnglish
      4·
      4 days ago

      Same cause nowadays you have to rely on a for profit company for your browser engine.

      • Possibly linux@lemmy.zipEnglish
        11·
        3 days ago

        I don’t have any issue as long as there are options and the company isn’t actively hostile.

        • Mwa@lemm.eeEnglish
          2·
          3 days ago

          true, if it was a company like suse,redhat who was for-profit and had a good browser engine then sure if its like google then maybe but for-profit companies are known to be problematic.

          • Possibly linux@lemmy.zipEnglish
            2·
            3 days ago

            I think the key thing is to have checks and balances and or incentives so that a browser doesn’t become just a tool to sell stuff. For instance, I hear the Mullvad browser is pretty good. It isn’t independent for obvious reasons but the idea still applies.

          • acockworkorange@mander.xyz
            1·
            3 days ago

            SuSE is problematic? As far as I know they released their system administration tools as open source without ever needing to, didn’t they? They’re for profit but seem to drive their profits on services rather selling software, as a good open source denizen. What am I missing?

            • Mwa@lemm.eeEnglish
              1·
              3 days ago

              I mean I was using suse as a example not saying they problematic like redhat (which had some controversy in the past ik)

    • shortrounddev@lemmy.worldEnglish
      12·
      3 days ago

      Ladybird seems almost singularly focused on macOS development. They say that they intend to incrementally move from C++ to Swift

      • AdrianTheFrog@lemmy.worldEnglish
        1·
        2 days ago

        Swift is decent, one of the biggest .net (c#) people gave a talk at godotcon about whay he likes it better than c#

        It works cross platform, it’s just developed by apple

  • lmuel@sopuli.xyzEnglish
    71·
    3 days ago

    Ladybird is certainly interesting to watch, it’s improving quite quickly.

    I know people on here hate it because of one (admittedly not at all nice) gender issue in the codes comments but like… seriously?

      • mke@programming.dev
        172·
        2 days ago

        I’ll give my take on it. Something many fail to grasp is that it’s not about a singular thing, you need to look at the context. Let’s go through some of it:

        • Andreas Kling, lead developer of (now-)Ladybird, rejects PR that changes “he” to “they” in documentation.
          • This is the most frequently mentioned example of Andreas’ issues.
          • The “he” in question referred to any user, where “they” is already commonly used instead by everything from companies, to news, to the Linux Kernel docs (an arguably much more important software project).
          • Andreas’ exact words: “This project is not an appropriate arena to advertise your personal politics.”
          • This code was eventually merged 3 years laters in a different PR, this time described as “Grammar fixes” (it changes even more pronouns to gender neutral than the original did).
          • Someone got his attention and tried to explain to him why that’s not cool; he doubled down, assuming the worst from the original contributor.
        • Andreas Kling likes interacting with far-right, queerphobic, or otherwise controversial persons.
          • Here’s him calling Brendan Eich, known homophobe, kicked out of Mozilla for… being a homophobe, now CEO of the foremost crypto browser, infamous for its bravery and attracting like-minded fans, “Senpai.”
          • Here’s him welcoming Vaxry, infamous for the toxic community of his hyprland project to the point of being kicked out of the freedesktop.org project. He’s also on record saying “I do believe there could be arguments to sway my opinion towards genocide”. There is a print of this, somewhere. I will find it and put it here.
          • Here’s him doing a talk with Bryan Lunduke, tech’s premier transphobe anti-DEI, anti-Woke conspiracy theorist with a classic far-right victim-complex.
            • Trudging through Bryan’s slop wears on the mind, but here’s another example of him being ridiculous. Highlight of the article: “There are multiple Software and Computer organizations which have declared their support for the Trans fetish over the last few years…”
              • Read anything by Bryan, then look into what he’s talking about. There are at least as many examples, as there are times Bryan has touched upon LGBT topics or linux in recent years.
            • Here’s relatively prominent KDE developer Niccolò’s hour long video detailing how Bryan is a horrible, lying “journalist,” and how people need to stop giving him a stage.
          • He also often interacts with other various degrees of right-leaning users on twitter, a platform he describes as full of positive energy, unlike Mastodon.
        • Other funny things about Andreas that could be irrelevant in isolation but… look at all of this.

        Would I look at that PR and say I’m not touching Andreas with a ten-foot pole? Maybe that’s excessive. Would I ignore all the rest and say he’s just misunderstood? Hell no. For all its issues, I do hope Ladybird succeeds as a new browser engine because the internet needs more of those. But I’m not touching or otherwise supporting it unless Andreas gets his shit sorted.

          • mke@programming.dev
            5·
            2 days ago

            I honestly can’t tell if there’s a disguise. Maybe there isn’t! He seems to genuinely and stubbornly believe in the apolitical-centrist stuff, which you wouldn’t think him capable of since he’s so intelligent when it comes to programming… but programming intelligence is not necessarily applicable anywhere else.

            • BaumGeist@lemmy.ml
              4·
              2 days ago

              Unfortunately—99.999% of the time—“apolitical” just means “I haven’t taken the time to consider my deeply held values and how they show through in my day-to-day life and I want to stop hearing from people who challenge my worldview,” not “I would like to not have this space devolve into discussions about governance nor economics” (which is also a political statement when you consider it’s a community leader saying no one is allowed to question how they govern the community).

              E.g. why the fuck are pronouns “political”? Just because certain pundits have vilified anyone who uses less common ones to refer to themself? That just means any topic is potentially political, and all it takes is some asshole making the community you and your loved ones belong to part of their political agenda for your PR to be dismissed. “Sorry, that kind of usecase is common among Straight White Males™, and I don’t want this project to be made unnecessarily political.”

              Some people have no self-reflection, and it shows when they say shit like this. Only a matter of time before Kling claims people calling him out for being rightwing “pushed” him into the rightwing (because he realized the values he aleady held aligned with theirs, but lets conveniently forget to mention that part).

        • DreamlandLividity@lemmy.world
          35·
          3 days ago

          So it’s not just the PR, it is also him interacting with “the wrong people”. Because it is so unthinkable to post about another browser developer while developing a browser regardless of politics. Idk anything about Andreas Kling, maybe he is a bad person, but the reasoning in your comment seems unhinged to me.

          PS: Maybe off topic, but FDO reasoning for banning Vaxry is also wild. FDO admits he never broke the CoC on their platforms, then the CoC enforcement sends him a threatening email demanding he moderates his community differently and when he pushes back and says he will ignore this person sending unsolicited threatening emails, that is a reason to ban him. Because somehow this unsolicited threatening email is somehow considered part of FDO. Literally manufacturing a cause…

          • mke@programming.dev
            8·
            3 days ago

            I’m baffled by your comment.

            Read again, it’s not just interacting, he’s praising, promoting, and gladly and voluntarily engaging with these people. Not “the wrong people.” Say it with me: far-right misinformation propagandists, queerphobes, a genocide defender. Not “wrong”, with scare quotes, but actually shitty people. And I’m not even done with that comment.

            About your ridiculous defense of vaxry, I’m going to be straight with you: violating CoC or not is irrelevant. If you manage a community that toxic, don’t see anything wrong with it, and don’t want to do anything about it, it is normal to want nothing to do with you. No magical binding social contract is necessary for this—if you suck, people don’t want to deal with you.

            Collaborating in FDO isn’t a natural right, it’s a privilege earned by contributing. Vaxry made people not want to be there. Vaxry was detracting.

            Your entire reply reeks of “it’s not that bad,” which to me reads as “I don’t think those things are bad” and sincerely makes me not want to talk with you further if that’s truly the case.

            EDIT: So, I checked your profile, and you have a giant comment thread on things you dislike about DEI, and you also do mental gymnastics to defend the right. Cool, cool. And a comment equivalating “what if kamala did the sieg hail” to the question “what if elon did it?”

            • DreamlandLividity@lemmy.world
              1·
              3 days ago

              First off, I don’t know anything about Vaxry or the Hyperland community, so I am definitely not defending him or implying it is not bad or anything of the sorts. I am saying the public reasoning for the ban is manufactured BS, and I am pretty sure that is because it is hard to call yourself “free” anything if you want to police peoples behavior unrelated to your project.

              If you think projects should do such policing, that’s fine. It even makes sense, if you ignore the potential for misuse. But they certainly shouldn’t advertise themselves as free. It’s the hypocrisy of trying to do both by manufacturing an excuse I am calling out.

              As for the rest of what you write, I feel it all comes to the same unhinged idea that because someone is a bad person, everything they touch, create or any person engaging with them is also bad.

              I dislike Brave, and it’s founder. Doesn’t mean everything Brave does is bad or can’t be promoted by me as good. If you choose to not do it for your personal beliefs, that is fine. But the idea that I am not allowed to praise Brave browser features or other actions because of something unrelated its founder did or said is ridiculous.

              EDIT: Regarding your edit, yes. I criticize parts of DEI or stupid anti-Trump arguments. That’s the whole point. Stupid arguments are stupid even if a good person is making them and good arguments are good, even if evil person like Trump makes them. Parts of DEI can be bad, even though discrimination is also bad. The world is not black and white.

              EDIT2: Here is my post on DEI if anyone wants to read it and decide for themselves whether it is reasonable criticism or not.

              • mke@programming.dev
                2·
                3 days ago

                You’re defending him—intentionally or not—because you’re giving legitimacy to the idea that, somehow, the party that kicked him out is in the wrong, not the guy that defends genocide. It’s likely there would be complaints regardless of their official reasoning, because Vaxry’s problem is beyond reason.

                I feel it all comes to the same unhinged idea that because someone is a bad person, everything they touch, create or any person engaging with them is also a bad person.

                Not at all? There’s a chance I edited my comment after you replied. I’ve made many edits, and I’m not exactly keeping track. Please reread the end of it:

                For all its issues, I do hope Ladybird succeeds as a new browser engine because the internet needs more of those. But I’m not touching or otherwise supporting it unless they get their shit sorted.

                I hope the project succeeds, that it helps the internet. Doesn’t mean I must like or support the person behind it, specially when they’re acting this way. I believe there are others like me. I would like them to be informed as well.

                The idea that I am not allowed to praise Brave browser features because of something unrelated its founder did is ridiculous.

                Good news: I never said that. Go on, praise Ladybird. Someone asked about details on “Andreas’ gender issue,” I replied with details. Because I’m tired of people defending it in isolation, I brought more details. Any criticism is of Andreas actions, based on Andreas’ own actions.

                • DreamlandLividity@lemmy.world
                  11·
                  3 days ago

                  You’re defending him—intentionally or not—because you’re giving legitimacy to the idea that, somehow, the party that kicked him out is in the wrong.

                  Yeah, I am tired of this shit. My entire comment repeatedly spells out that criticizing one party does not mean supporting the other. Both FDO and Vaxry can be in the wrong. If you can’t even comprehend that, there is nothing else to talk about.

    • gon [he]@lemm.eeEnglish
      21·
      3 days ago

      I know people on here hate it because of one (admittedly not at all nice) gender issue in the codes comments but like… seriously?

      I actually recently had a discussion about this very issue and came to see it as a case of poor communication, rather than anything mean-spirited on the devs’ part.

  • 21Cabbage@lemmynsfw.comEnglish
    1·
    4 days ago

    Is there anything one could even install anymore based off of IE’s engine? That’d be a fun one to put on the old beater machine.