In 9th grade US history we held a mock trial about the nuclear strikes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I was assigned the role of Harry Truman, one of the defendants. I did a ton of research about the plans for invasion of Japan on both sides, and it was terrifying. The Japanese were teaching children to fight with garden tools, and US casualty estimates were over a million soldiers.
However, in the end I came to the conclusion that the nuclear strikes weren’t necessary, and I wouldn’t have ordered them simply because a the war was already incredibly one-sided, and an invasion wouldn’t have been necessary in the first place since Japan was already on its last legs.
The class ended up convicting me of a war crime, which was nice.
However, in the end I came to the conclusion that the nuclear strikes weren’t necessary, and I wouldn’t have ordered them simply because a the war was already incredibly one-sided, and an invasion wouldn’t have been necessary in the first place since Japan was already on its last legs.
If I’d have been president I’d continue the (not very) strategic bombing and implement a blockade. Japan has very few natural resources and relies a lot on imports, so this would have hamstrung their military effectiveness. It would have taken a bit longer but based on my half-remembered research from almost 30 years ago it would have worked without an invasion or nukes.
IMHO the nukes were signals to Stalin that he better stop at Berlin.
Firebombing wooden cities night after night? All good carry on.
Poison gas? Whoa WTF are you some kind of monster.
There was a weird little side note in a debate about using nuclear weapons in Vietnam. Someone in the Pentagon on the pro side said, more or less: War is total. People die. If you’re killed in a war, it makes absolutely no difference whether it was from being shot, or stabbed, or blown up by a nuclear bomb. People die and that’s the end for them. That’s war, that’s what we’re talking about, don’t get all squeamish about it now.
I don’t agree with bombing Vietnam obviously, but I do feel like there’s an essential point about war there that is often papered over; people become horrified by some things about war while remaining fine with other things.
War is weird, but ultimately the concern is generally escalation/normalization of weapons. If nukes get normalized, then every military worth its salt needs one, and can use them, and that means suddenly warfare becomes much, much more bloody as a matter of averages, not just as a matter of a bomb or two vaporizing a few hundred thousand people in the occasional high-intensity war.
Yeah, agreed. I think it’s by far a good thing that we’ve been lucky enough so far that they haven’t been used beyond that one time.
I actually think there’s an unspoken factor that is why people actually treat nuclear weapons so differently: There is no way in the modern day that any leader anywhere in the world can start a nuclear war and be sure it won’t come back and impact them and their family. Unlike other war things, it’s never safely insulated in some faraway place happening to other people.
It would be nice to think that the taboo is because of the horrible consequences, but we’re doing things with horrible consequences every day. I think it’s because of the pure calculus of what might happen to me and people I care about, right away.
I mean, the problem with nuclear weapons are for the survivors. I assume getting turned into physics by a nuclear bomb isn’t really painful. Then there’s dying from the shockwave which is probably considerably worse already.
I think the non-use of nuclear weapons was a bigger deal in the Korean War. For various reasons, both sides chose to not use nuclear weapons. This included the one President that chose to deploy nuclear weapons in World War II.
The Korean peninsula could have easily become an irradiated wasteland.
But either you’d be strategically weakening the country to give invading forces an easier time, at which point you’re throwing civilians into the meat grinder anyway, or you’re starving the country until it devolves into literal anarchy, because the only people in the position to surrender were entrenched enough that they’d be the last one to see their power structure fall apart.
The Japanese weren’t exactly known for surrender. It’s easy to arm chair judge but I’m doubtful anything less than terrifying overwhelming force would have been enough. Sometimes there’s only bad options.
Unfortunately a brighter future sometimes requires brutal action, but you can never tell in the moment whether you saved something or are just a monster
In 9th grade US history we held a mock trial about the nuclear strikes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Holy shit. That’s a hell of an assignment for 14 year olds. Military historians and experts today debate the efficacy of the nuclear strikes and the jury is still out on if they were better than not.
im not too suprised, had the same topic for debate back in highschool in 11th grade. Thuradays were debate days which was always themed on what part of history the class was on. the debates werent about what what you believed in, but was used as a tool to get students to study the reasoning on both sides.
ill put a disclaimer that it was a very demanding and difficult class (id argue harder than half of my college classes), but people went into it because of two things, it prepared any student for college, and it had the highest AP passing score at the school, so it was a tried and true method.
Even though I am an American, my primary school education is from a school for British expats so my WWII knowledge is mostly European focused. What was the beef between the US and Japan that led to the bombing of Pearl Harbor?
In 9th grade US history we held a mock trial about the nuclear strikes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I was assigned the role of Harry Truman, one of the defendants. I did a ton of research about the plans for invasion of Japan on both sides, and it was terrifying. The Japanese were teaching children to fight with garden tools, and US casualty estimates were over a million soldiers.
However, in the end I came to the conclusion that the nuclear strikes weren’t necessary, and I wouldn’t have ordered them simply because a the war was already incredibly one-sided, and an invasion wouldn’t have been necessary in the first place since Japan was already on its last legs.
The class ended up convicting me of a war crime, which was nice.
Then how does the war end, in your scenario?
If I’d have been president I’d continue the (not very) strategic bombing and implement a blockade. Japan has very few natural resources and relies a lot on imports, so this would have hamstrung their military effectiveness. It would have taken a bit longer but based on my half-remembered research from almost 30 years ago it would have worked without an invasion or nukes.
IMHO the nukes were signals to Stalin that he better stop at Berlin.
There were studies done on the loss of human life that a blockade without an invasion would incur.
It was horrific. Literal millions of deaths were projected.
The terror bombing (and that’s what it was, by 1945) was considerably bloodier than the atomic bombings.
War is weird.
Firebombing wooden cities night after night? All good carry on.
Poison gas? Whoa WTF are you some kind of monster.
There was a weird little side note in a debate about using nuclear weapons in Vietnam. Someone in the Pentagon on the pro side said, more or less: War is total. People die. If you’re killed in a war, it makes absolutely no difference whether it was from being shot, or stabbed, or blown up by a nuclear bomb. People die and that’s the end for them. That’s war, that’s what we’re talking about, don’t get all squeamish about it now.
I don’t agree with bombing Vietnam obviously, but I do feel like there’s an essential point about war there that is often papered over; people become horrified by some things about war while remaining fine with other things.
War is weird, but ultimately the concern is generally escalation/normalization of weapons. If nukes get normalized, then every military worth its salt needs one, and can use them, and that means suddenly warfare becomes much, much more bloody as a matter of averages, not just as a matter of a bomb or two vaporizing a few hundred thousand people in the occasional high-intensity war.
Yeah, agreed. I think it’s by far a good thing that we’ve been lucky enough so far that they haven’t been used beyond that one time.
I actually think there’s an unspoken factor that is why people actually treat nuclear weapons so differently: There is no way in the modern day that any leader anywhere in the world can start a nuclear war and be sure it won’t come back and impact them and their family. Unlike other war things, it’s never safely insulated in some faraway place happening to other people.
It would be nice to think that the taboo is because of the horrible consequences, but we’re doing things with horrible consequences every day. I think it’s because of the pure calculus of what might happen to me and people I care about, right away.
I feel that reaching your conclusion on that basis would have been all but impossible without the benefits of hindsight.
Also, long-term effects were not known then
I meant in reference to the post-war attempts at nuclear restraint, not Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
I mean, the problem with nuclear weapons are for the survivors. I assume getting turned into physics by a nuclear bomb isn’t really painful. Then there’s dying from the shockwave which is probably considerably worse already.
And then there’s the radiations…
I think the non-use of nuclear weapons was a bigger deal in the Korean War. For various reasons, both sides chose to not use nuclear weapons. This included the one President that chose to deploy nuclear weapons in World War II.
The Korean peninsula could have easily become an irradiated wasteland.
But either you’d be strategically weakening the country to give invading forces an easier time, at which point you’re throwing civilians into the meat grinder anyway, or you’re starving the country until it devolves into literal anarchy, because the only people in the position to surrender were entrenched enough that they’d be the last one to see their power structure fall apart.
The Japanese weren’t exactly known for surrender. It’s easy to arm chair judge but I’m doubtful anything less than terrifying overwhelming force would have been enough. Sometimes there’s only bad options.
So the best case we’d have ended with another North Korea pariah state.
Unfortunately a brighter future sometimes requires brutal action, but you can never tell in the moment whether you saved something or are just a monster
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Not comment-OP, but here’s a credible scenario: https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/05/30/the-bomb-didnt-beat-japan-stalin-did/
Japan as another USSR satellite to be stripped for parts
Children are more competent than our international institutions, that’s reassuring.
Holy shit. That’s a hell of an assignment for 14 year olds. Military historians and experts today debate the efficacy of the nuclear strikes and the jury is still out on if they were better than not.
I had a really great teacher. She was very much about us learning from original sources and thinking critically about the historical context of them.
My 11th grade history teacher, on the other hand, showed us Monty Python and the Holy Grail as part of our study of the medieval period.
im not too suprised, had the same topic for debate back in highschool in 11th grade. Thuradays were debate days which was always themed on what part of history the class was on. the debates werent about what what you believed in, but was used as a tool to get students to study the reasoning on both sides.
ill put a disclaimer that it was a very demanding and difficult class (id argue harder than half of my college classes), but people went into it because of two things, it prepared any student for college, and it had the highest AP passing score at the school, so it was a tried and true method.
Even though I am an American, my primary school education is from a school for British expats so my WWII knowledge is mostly European focused. What was the beef between the US and Japan that led to the bombing of Pearl Harbor?
You came to the conclusion that it was better to kill 1,000,000 people bare minimum than 226,000 people upper estimate?
I feel like when presented with those options you’re directly responsible for every life you didn’t save.