I feel like I’ve been kind of in the loop for most of the headlines regarding this confrontation. Yet somehow I can’t find it within myself to actually care about either side. It seems like both are lead by genocidal parties, hell bent on indoctrinating their populace into hating the other side. Yet at the same time people are able to discern which state is the good one. And some going so far as to believe that one state might even be right over the other.
So far from what I’ve read and heard, it seems that overall Isreal is just more successful militarily and is encroaching on Palestinian land, and is exhibiting control over some of it. Is that the reason why one might support Palestine? Is it the fact that Isreal has more direct power in the region and thus can easily execute its will a problematic issue for some? From what I can see, both sides have caused massive civilian casualties and neither side wants a two state solution, so neither of those reasons can be a contributing factor to side picking, right? That being said, I can’t find a reason for supporting Isreal, so does Palestine win out by default? But what of the people that support Isreal, do they do that purely because they’re an American ally? Is any of this side taking have anything to do with the insertion of Jews into the region? What is expected to be done outside of a two state solution or genocide by those taking sides?
I have a lot of questions, and I obviously don’t expect all of them to be answered in a single post. So maybe focusing on the elements you’re highly informed on would be helpful and then I can kind of piece together the details. Thank you in advance!
There’s sort of 3 sides to the issue.
- A pro Israel side, which includes people that believe all of Palestinian land should also be only theirs as well as people that maybe don’t care about the land but care that Hamas is defeated and/or the Israeli hostages are saved
- Pro Hamas side: people that believe that Israel should be destroyed and Israelis killed, partly because of the damage that they have done to Palestinians
- Pro Palestinian side: Don’t want innocent Palestinians being bombed, starved or shot by Israel. Some also want a 2 state solutions implemented.
I don’t hear any real Pro Hamas people (since Hamas is very must a terrorist group), other than circumstantial (“Hamas is literally the only option Palestinians have aside the other side that is literally killing them”). Hamas basically wants to destroy Israel, which is what led to the October 7th attacks in which about 1,000 Israelis were killed. They felt that peace with Israel was not helping their goals, as Israel bombing Palestinians would help recruit more Hamas soldier with which to use to help destroy Israel.
The UN and many countries feel that despite Israel having the right to defend its citizens and attempt to infiltrate and destroy terrorists(Hamas), Israel is executing this plan in such a way that is unnecessarily killing thousands of innocent Palestinians(both through weapons but also starvation), about half of which are children.
A lot of the misinformation in regards to this topic are: “If you don’t support Israel you’re antisemitic”, “You’re either supporting Israel or you’re supporting Hamas”, “Palestinians overwhelming support Hamas”, “Israelis completely support what their government is doing”
I’m too lazy to source the above so obviously assume I’m lying/wrong (same with anybody else not posting any sources). You should read actual articles from reliable new sources, but hopefully the above gives you some information to understand what those articles are talking about.
people that believe that Israel should be destroyed and Israelis killed, partly because of the damage that they have done to Palestinians
Nobody important seriously believes this. Not even Hamas. Well “Israel should be destroyed” is a popular position, because that’s calling for an end to Israeli Apartheid. “Push them into the sea” rhetoric died in the 90s.
“Israelis completely support what their government is doing”
They do though. Specifically 80% of Israelis and 88% of Israeli Jews.
Mate, i have seen enough justification for 7/10 by calling every Israeli a legitimate target. And Hamas themselves called for the eradication of jews in their founding manifesto. Nowadays, that language isnt used on the new manifesto, but Hamas leaders (who just happened to sit comfortably in Qatar and Iran) have called for repetitions of 7/10, again, considering every israeli a valid target.
The pro hamas viewpoint is rare in the West but Netanyahu going for the world record on “most children killed” is also probably not doing favors for the public perception of Israel around the world.
Mate, i have seen enough justification for 7/10 by calling every Israeli a legitimate target
That’s why I said nobody important.
Nowadays, that language isnt used on the new manifesto,
Uh yes exactly. Hamas radically changed their approach to the conflict in 2006, and then in 2017 updated their charter to reflect that.
Hamas leaders (who just happened to sit comfortably in Qatar and Iran) have called for repetitions of 7/10,
Yes.
again, considering every israeli a valid target.
No. They’ve actively denied that Hamas fighters were responsible for any civilian casualties, and claimed that any such cases are accidents. Now that’s obviously not true, but they definitely didn’t consider every Israeli a valid target.
Considering that most of the casualties were civilian, thats like believing the IDF when they say they dont consider every civilian a target. It is reqlly hard to believe any Hamas leader in that regard, once you see who was killed and how.
Considering that most of the casualties were civilian
66%, even including counting crossfire, the involvement of other less trained forces (including random Gazans who happened to enter through the hole Hamas opened) and Israeli friendly fire (the latter is not insignificant; there were multiple proven cases of Israel choosing to kill Hamas fighters along with hostages instead of letting them return to Gaza). Not denying the atrocities that Hamas actually committed, but given these factors 66% isn’t indicative of any deliberate targeting.
It is reqlly hard to believe any Hamas leader in that regard, once you see who was killed and how.
What I’m trying to say is: Hamas’s official stance is that Israeli civilians aren’t valid targets. If they do consider all Israeli civilians targets (which considering how pragmatic Hamas generally is as an organization would make absolutely no sense) they’re definitely not saying it out loud. They said they’ll repeat 7/10 against Israel, the political entity, not that they’d keep killing civilians, is what I’m saying.
I mean they kidnapped civilians and refuse to release them. This is an extreme form of violence against innocent people, even if you accept the claim that the killing of civilians was unintentional which I find extremely dubious.
A charitable interpretation is that they have an extremely callous disregard for civilian lives in their campaign. Uncharitably, we could make an argument that their behavior indicates a clear desire to kill Israeli civilians. Either way, their claims here are total nonsense and I think actually make their malice towards Israeli citizens more, not less clear. They know what happened on Oct 7th and lying about it demonstrates that they have no desire to avoid the atrocities committed in the future.
I mean they kidnapped civilians and refuse to release them.
This is a textbook case of don’t blame the player, blame the game. Whatever little of Gaza’s dignity Hamas will be able to preserve after the war will depend on the hostages. While it sucks for them it’d suck worse if after this is all over Israel starts “resettling” Gaza or continues their starvation campaign.
So, according to your numbers, 20-12 percent of israelis don’t support what the government is doing? Doesn’t sound like israelis completely supports what the government is doing in Palestine. Thats a majority sure, but there’s a not insignificant amount of people that don’t support what the government is doing in Palestine.
I don’t think anyone is trying to imply that all Israelis support what their government is doing, but 80% (including 88% of Israeli Jews, which are the main demographic we’re looking at here) is a very damning number. Related: I don’t have the total number for this one, but the number of Israeli Jews who believe Israel is using too little or an appropriate amount of firepower is 94%. Again not all of them, but these are pretty damning numbers and dispel the idea that there’s real domestic opposition to what’s going on in Gaza.
Maybe that’s my bias, but that seems to be a very… specific way of sorting sides. Mind if I rephrase that?
- Pro Israeli side, which includes people who care that the hostages be saved. Some also want a 2 state solutions implemented.
- Pro Israeli control of Palestinians side: people that believe any Palestinian autonomy will result in a repeat of the Oct. 7th massacre, partly because of the, well, Oct. 7th massacre.
- Pro Palestinian side, which includes people who believe Israel should be destroyed and Jews killed, as well as people who maybe don’t want want Jews killed but care that Israel is defeated and/or Palestinians are not bombed.
I’d say both phrasings are about equally accurate and objective.
Most people aren’t talking about the political parties but the civilians caught up in the middle.
Israel’s government and Hamas are both fucking awful.
Very few people actually support the genocide of Palestinians or the people of Israel.
But genocide is happening to one.
This whole thing is a major political problem that has been brewing pretty much since World War II. I’m by far not an expert so I might get some details wrong but I’ll try.
During the war, millions of Jews fled from the Nazis and the Allies were wondering what to do with all those refugees. One option was British-occupied Palestine. The reasoning was that it geographically coincided with ancient Isreael, the Jewish homeland. The problem is that it had been inhabited by Muslims for over 1300 years so obviously the Arab population wasn’t too happy about giving up the region their families had lived in for generations just because some western colonial power had decided to give it to some refugees.
The plan was to split Palestine into two states - Palestine and Israel - with Jerusalem as a neutral zone under control of the United Nations. Because of the unstable situation - including terrorist attacks against the British administration - this was never fully implemented. The state of Isreael was officially founded in 1948 but there
was never any formal agreement on who controls which parts of the region. The Arabs got driven from their homes and only kept the West Bank and the Gaza Strip but were obviously never happy about that.(Edit: please see correction by @Sprawlie@lemmy.world below. The situation is even more complicated) While the general population would probably be okay with just being left in peace, there are radical groups like Hamas who want to take back what was taken from them by the British and Israel.On the other hand, nobody who lives in Israel today was involved 80 years ago when the British decided on their plan. These people were born in Israel and have lived there all their lives. So in a way, both sides just want to keep their homes. There have been several proposals for how we could solve this, including an official two states solution that would regulate the borders (obviously not favored by Palestine), a single state solution (forcing two groups who have been fighting each other for 80 years could be tricky) and reverting everything the British decided and kicking out the Jewish population (obviously not favored by Israel). There just is no good solution and so the situation in the area is heating up more and more. From their own perspectives, both sides have good reasons for what they’re doing though the way they’re doing it is obviously not acceptable.
(Edit: corrected 1400 to 1300. Math is hard)
The state of Isreael was officially founded in 1948 but there was never any formal agreement on who controls which parts of the region. The Arabs got driven from their homes and only kept the West Bank and the Gaza Strip but were obviously never happy about that.
This is one place I just want to offer some correction:
There was a formal agreement between UN/West and the Jewish people who occupied the areas that were to become Israel. The British Mandate of Palestine had a sizeable Jewish population already which is why it was also favoured.
It was the Arab nations who completely disagreed and said “NO” to the partition plans. Under which a large portion of the southern half of Israel would become Palestine-Jordan. (Jordan was originally intended to be the Palestinian/muslim portion). The WestBank was accepted as Jordanian in this agreement, as well as Gaza ownership was by Egypt. Israel would originally honour those borders.
Once the British Mandated ended and Israel formed, All the surrounding Arab nations attacked Israel immediately, Calling for all Muslims within the Israel land to leave Israel and fight against it. Israel won this war annexing the entirety of Israel instead.
Israel would not actually take Gaza or the West Bank until later wars. They took West Bank from Jordan; Gaza and the Sinai from Egypt. They would later return Sinai to Egypt as part of Peace treaty, but Egypt did not want Gaza due their own history with the Palestinian’s of the region.
As for the Muslim’s who stayed in Israel after its forming? They’re citizens and have full vote/power/rights as every single other Israeli citizen. Since Israel is a democracy with a fairly secular government (even if it’s currently ran by right wing terrorists).
Thanks for the corrections. My knowledge about early Israel is fuzzy at best.
The situation is even more complicated) While the general population would probably be okay with just being left in peace, there are radical groups like Hamas who want to take back what was taken from them by the British and Israel.
As you said in your edit, the situation is extremely complicated, because it involved groups that are historically opposed for generations, if not centuries.
Ty for the brief historical perspective I’m sure it was a very shallow overview but it tied together a lot of the other stuff I’ve heard into a way that makes more sense.
Thank you for the nice words. I just felt like with all the discussion of who did what in the last few years, people are forgetting why Israel and Palestine are fighting in the first place.
Of course there is a lot more to this. For example the fact that Jerusalem is considered a sacred place by three different major religions and so the question who controls it is not only political but also symbolic. It was literally the (official) reason for the crusades during the middle ages. In that way, a neutral Jerusalem might have actually been a good idea. Though of course we don’t know what other problems that would have caused.
A Neutral UN city not directly ran by Israel or Palestine would likely have settled a lot of tensions. Firstly, Israel couldn’t claim it their capital, which has been a major pain point for decades now. Something Trump further inflamed by moving the US Consulate to Israel in it.
If it were made a place where all religions of all type are allowed in all parts as a historical landmark, maybe there’d be a peaceful place where the three Bbrahamic religions could actually find common ground.
Instead they created a religious McGuffin to fight over.
Except a macguffin can be like. Stolen and/or destroyed. You don’t have to murder everybody standing on it to claim it you can just be a regular dickhead and sucker punch the guy and walk off with it. If people get tired enough of people punching each other over it they can either lock it up better or just light it on fire. Land has to have people probably homeless or dead to change hands and almost no matter what you do to it it’ll still be a part of the surface area of this rock we’re stuck on or around for the conceivable future.
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I am by no means highly informed, but so far, I didn’t see a few things I think should be mentioned.
Both Israel’s government and Hamas are definitely bad guys who found stirring hate towards each other a convenient way of staying in power. After all, If you have the stongest rhetoric towards someone who wants to kill people of your country, of course those people will vote for you and you can get away with things you otherwise couldn’t.
There’s also another side which I haven’t seen explicitly mentioned and should be considered: surrounding islamic countries (who are surely not a homogeneous group). They are in a good position to help palestinian civilians, but don’t do very much for various reasons I know relatively little about.
They are in a good position to help palestinian civilians, but don’t do very much for various reasons I know relatively little about.
Palestine is under occupation. Every time anyone tries to help (like aid workers or even NATO), Israel attacks them. People say let them resettle in Egypt. They shouldn’t have to resettle, lose their homes, Egypt shouldn’t have to provide refugees services, etc. People always say, “Other Muslim countries should help them so they must not care.” False.
I’ll let others fill in the history of the rest of it. TLDR: Palestinian civilians are not all Hamas, but they are treated as such.
It can simultaneously be true that Palestinians should not be evicted from their homes and also that nearby countries (including Israel by the way) have an obligation to assist with the refugee crisis. There is no perfect solution to this crisis, and given the lack of collective consensus, each individual actor should be pursuing the least bad option available to them. I think for neighboring countries this includes letting in refugees at a minimum.
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Israel responded with batshit overwhelming force to a terrorist attack by a contingent of Palestinian nationals and has comitted numerous war crimes against innocent civilians in the process.
Because everything is sports teams also virtue signalling
I can spot a bad faith question when I see one, and your comments confirm it.
I’m curious as to which side I was taking before I submitted this discussion. Because I think it’s quite clear that I simply thought this was just another battle in the middle east sparked by land and racial tensions, and despite one side being much better equipped for extermination than the other, it wasn’t particularly notable. My language doesn’t feel pro Hamas, maybe It could be seen as pro Israeli because of that though. But I feel like that’s exactly what everyone in this thread has been pointing out, that there aren’t just two sides, and people aren’t picking between Israel and Hamas (or even Palestine for that matter).
Heck I’m not even arguing with anyone here except you, so what do you think I could possibly be trying to achieve? Let me remind you the community we’re currently discussing this in is !outoftheloop@lemmy.world .
Just in brief, ignoring some history and so on, Gaza has been under Israeli occupation for a while now, controlling essentially everything that goes in and out, including people. Hamas gained power there, and legit, the Israeli government has given resources to Hamas to keep them going, supposedly as an excuse to keep their thumb on the Palestinian population.
A lot of people supported the creation of a Jewish state coming out of WWII and the holocaust, but currently, and especially because of just how hard the Israeli military is going now, it’s becoming impossible to not see how much the Israeli government just wants to take control of all the land and wipe out the Palestinian people.
Of course, there’s more going on, and some people might disagree with my simplification, but I think this is as good of a simple explanation of at least my understanding trying to follow what’s been going on in the region since the early aughts.
Hot take: They are all raging cunts.
projection and lowkey racist lol, careful
From the river of stars to the sea of galaxies, humanity will reign supreme.
Or something, inunno
I think people just like to get mad about something.
This is as good of a thing as any to be mad about.
To everyone who takes offense to this: I’m not saying you don’t have reasons. I’m sure you do. Please don’t share them with me. I’m so far removed from the conflict and I have so many problems of my own that I cannot spare any thought for this war. My only sentiment on it is that I hope that innocent people stop getting killed needlessly. I don’t care what side they’re on, if they’re not intentionally part of the fighting, and they die as a result of the fighting, that’s the kind of person I’m talking about. With a special additional note of the same regarding children. Kids can’t really comprehend the reason for the fighting and death and therefore are incapable of “taking a side”, so they’re especially innocent in all of this.
In summary, stop killing people. Thanks for coming to my Ted talk
