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US is scared now of someone making better and cheaper cars. :)
Nah, we’re cool with Japan eating our lunch. We just don’t want a nationstate to artificially make their cars cheaper, even if they are good, to grab marketshare.
I’m frankly getting pretty goddamn annoyed at all the people who relentlessly fail to understand that the PRC is heavily subsidizing production of basically all of their EVs in the interest of undercutting literally all other countries that are (or are trying to) produce EVs.
By all means, research what I’m saying here to confirm its veracity - in fact I encourage you to. This is economic warfare, plain and simple.
EVE Online taught me this lesson. Those with the resources to do so will take a loss to price you out of the market, because they know you can’t take the losses nearly as long as they can.
And that’s precisely what’s happening here. A car manufacturer with a whole-ass government subsidizing it is going to be able to operate just fine at a loss pretty much indefinitely, whereas a normal car manufacturer would sooner or later simply go bankrupt (pointedly ignoring the whole “too big to fail” idiocy, which to be honest, while similar, isn’t quite the same thing).
Its not just the EV, its every layer of the supply chain. From the lithium they mine, the batteries they make out of it, the circuits and metal fabricating. Their government subsidies the electricity, tools, facilities, labor, etc. I work in the engineering field and I see bits and pieces of this everyday and have seen it for decades because I’m forced to source parts from China.
I know. I’m trying to dumb it down a bit because the dipshits who argue about this stuff don’t seem to understand the incredible level of complexity of modern-day high tech consumer product manufacturing logistics.
You say this like it’s somehow bad?
…it is bad. It’s particularly bad because the PRC is running the show, and they very certainly do not have the best interest of any group but themselves (as in, the Party, and particularly, the Party Committee) in mind.
Having a cheap supply chain that incentives and heavily costs cut for EVs is bad? I can’t follow this
The PRC is trying to crush any and all competition. This isn’t them being ecologically friendly or magnanimous in any way. The entire point of this is so they can do the best they can to corner the market, which is easier when the government you operate under just hands you money so you can immediately recoup substantial fraction of your balance sheet liabilities. They are doing this because they want to control the EV market, which will give the PRC a substantial amount of geopolitical power (case in point: look at Taiwan with their chip foundries). And, of course, Party officials and the corporate leadership of their car companies stand to make a fair bit of dosh too.
More broadly, I don’t like when any country does this, including the US. The primary reason I’m singling the PRC out here is because that’s the topic of the post.
I wonder how repairable and maintainable these will be as compared to EV’s from other markets and if replacement batteries will be available as the original ones reach the end of their useful life.
If these concerns end up being valid, and the tariffs are large enough that these cars aren’t priced particularly competively, that’d be enough for this EV consumer to pass it up for his next vehicle. Will be interested to see how it plays out.
Edit: Wanted to say I’m not against Chinese EV’s. If ends up making sense to get one, I will.
Yeah, after-sales support would be my main concern as well. How support, maintenance, repairs, and warranty claims work.
Presumably the manufacturers of these things would have to set up a dealer network in the US of some sort in order to be competitive at all. Otherwise, these will be completely dead in the water with US buyers. Plastic crap from Temu and AliExpress is one thing, but I can tell you nobody will buy something as expensive as a car knowing it’s completely unsupported.
Historically, importing Chinese vehicles has been a totally buyer-beware operation. You might get a short replacement parts only warranty from whoever the importer is if you’re very lucky. Otherwise, you’re on your own. Both finding the parts and doing the labor. I say this as an owner of three (3) Chinese motorcycles which have been fine enough machines for what they are, but never mind a warranty – no mechanic’s shop will touch them even if you’re willing to pay. So I do my own work on them.
But cheap motorcycles are way less complex than a full sized electric car.
EVs are all about saving car dependency and the auto cartels, not saving the environment.
Its the Ticktok trend
Muh Chag-lei!
A car as cheap as a moped. Amazing!
That is amazing! It’s a toy car in human size LMAO!
And there’s this: https://youtu.be/9AL5RQ9XgMo
Even cheaper, but they basically use it like they use all their vehicles, to make some mad offroad project.
Car makers can’t be bothered to compete so they lobbied (bribed) the government to just ban the competition.
Damn. I was interested in the Volvo ex30
I was too, until I found out they completely removed the driver instrument cluster, so even the speedometer is on the infotainment screen. I’m all for large screens, but the speedo and other necessary gauges should still be in front of the driver or on a HUD.
Also it’s super plastic and feels cheap. I was disappointed in it and went for xc40 instead with higher quality feeling.
They saved too much on it. Even volvo itself said that they make almost 20% profit on it which is much higher than their other cars.
100% agree. They really stripped that car down in order to make it work with a 27% import tax from China. Few physical buttons, a soundbar instead of door speakers, etc. There are a number of quirky design
Android Automotive (not to be confused with Android Auto) is the only thing that makes me think I could make it work. More specifically, Google Assistant control for HVAC, defrost, etc.
One of the things that drives me nuts about Telsa is that the buttons are missing, and the voice control is shit in comparison to Assistant and even janky ’ol Siri.
I’m usually against tariffs but in this case it seems like a pretty fair tit for tat to China basically removing the budgetary concerns for their manufacturers that said manufacturer’s international counterparts won’t have.
Subsidizing local production for local markets is fine enough, but exporting products made with an infinite money glitch active is more or less an intentional play at market capture.
And before some sinoboo tries to gatcha me I do also object to examples where the west subsidizes domestic production for international markets.
I want a $10000 car that would normally be inflated to $30000 in the US.
I’m no lover of China, but fuck the capitalist auto companies.
I want a $10000 car that would normally be inflated to $30000 in the US.
You can’t make that same car in the United States for anything like the same price. Even ignoring the Chinese Governments heavy subsidies there’s still a massive cost gap due to worker compensation, cost of compliance with safety regulations, cost of compliance with environmental regulations, and a whole host of other things.
The cost of manufacturing in the United States is radically higher than it is in China and that simply isn’t fixable unless you’re going to unwind Union pay deals, remove environmental laws, and reduce safety restrictions.
You cannot have both, so which are you choosing? Are you going to go with your wallet like a self absorbed capitalist or are you going to support union workers, stronger environmental laws, and more worker safety?
Thatsthething.
Everyone talks about how shitty the environment is and that we’re going to get burned alive in our lifetime…but at the same time, fuck the environment if it means cheap goods.
Here’s some fun math. Burning a gallon of gas emits 8,887g of CO2. Let’s call it 8.9kg. 1000kgs in a tonne. That means 112 gallons emits a tonne of CO2.
With me so far?
It costs around $500 to remove a tonne of CO2 from the atmosphere.
People act like $3/gal for gas is too much. I say, it’s nowhere near high enough. Gas has to cost $4.46/gal just to cover cleaning up the CO2 emitted from it. That’s just cleanup.
Maybe if we had to pay the cost for our lifestyle, we’d readdress what we actually need. Instead, we have government subsidized global destruction. All of the EV/renewable tax rebates are great (as long as you can use them)…but it’s nothing compared to what oil gets.
Don’t even get me started on beef.
Mexico is just across the boarder, and US car makers already make their stuff there to save cash. Mexico has a pretty low unemployment rate right now, so pushing even more labor demand their way would help improve a lot of peoples’ lives by lifting salaries.
But a lot of the cost is in battery manufacturing, not assembly. We need to experiment with sodium-ion batteries to bring those costs down for economy-class cars, just like China is. Maybe $10k is too little, but $15-20k should be feasible for a very basic car.
so which are you choosing?
I think most people will choose what they can actually afford. The fact that things cost so much and people aren’t being paid anywhere near enough to compensate for the skyrocketing price of consumer goods, including vehicles.
Whatever the reasons, there is a very serious and dangerous disconnect between the prices of American goods and the spending power of the average American. Unless we do something about that - and I do not mean short-sighted, punitive, protectionist measures like tariffs - China is going to drink our milkshake.
Maybe the problem is our lifestyles. I’m unaware of any long term studies suggesting that in a situation in which the population increases and the resources and land are fixed, that it gets cheaper for anyone wanting anything.
Have you read Ishmael?
It’s not the capitalist auto companies who are going to get hurt though. The price advantage of the Chinese companies comes from low labor costs and government subsidies, so the auto companies will just move there production to whatever country offers the most subsidies and least labor costs because in our current globalized world capital can move freely.
The real losers will be the unionized auto workers who’ll be abandoned while capitalists maintain or even increase there profits in the third world. These sorts of race to the bottom always harm workers, whether it be with clothes and shein , or EVs.
Ah yes, great way to fuck over our capitalists, by supporting their worse capitalists instead
Maybe I want “our capitalists” to change.
I mean if we’re being capitalists, that’s how the free market works, right?
Certified “you criticize capitalism yet you live in it” moment
No ethical way to spend in a capitalist society. It kind of is what it is, cause I gotta eat. Also certified “you criticize capitalism yet you live in it moment” to you sir.
are all unethical choices equal? Surely there are better and worse things?
No but unethical is unethical so I’m not sure where you’re going with this.
US auto makers were like “we love the free market”, then people bought cheaper cars from China and they said “wait, not that free!”
“our capitalists”? what does that even mean ?
My guess that the prior comment either reflects an assumption that non western capitalists are somehow better than western capitalists or that China’s capitalists aren’t a capitalist class.
That $10k Chinese car cost $20k to make. A competitor undercutting the market that much leads to monopolization. When that competitor is being bankrolled by a foreign government it’s potentially even a hostile act.
People have been mad for decades about what Walmart did to retail in the US. Taking steps to prevent that from also happening with the auto industry should be appreciated.
When they show me their manufacturing costs, I’ll believe that.
They won’t because part of it is slave labor.
That’s all car companies.
Sure dumbass. Way to discount all the labor wins the UAW has fought for recently.
You’re going to be waiting a long time to get reliable numbers out of the CCP.
I mean the other car companies who overcharge.
it’s
potentially evena hostile act.
I prefer the circular solution. Make a tariff equal to the delta, and use the tariff to subsidize local production and reduce the delta.
Now this I can get behind. We should fight back by subsidization of production as heavily as China is theirs.
subsidizing production isnt a bad thing.
it makes for a quicker transition to ev. its only a problem now because china is doing it.
Free market but only until someone overtakes us, then shun them to eliminate cheap merchandise so we can rig up the prices, did i understood that right?
I’m surprised the auto cartel aren’t making them be banned like chinese smartphones tbh
God forbid anyone get a cheap EV before US car companies sort out which $50,000+ car brand can position itself as the “luxury” one before accepting that they need to build cheaper models.
I think part of the problem is that new cars are bought mostly by fairly well-off individuals; with other people buying used cars. Economy cars sell poorly in the U.S.
