Important clarification/FAQ
I am not calling to coddle or excuse the behavior of bigoted men in any way!
I am calling to be kind and understanding to young men (often ages 10-20) who are very manipulable and succeptible to the massive anti feminist propaganda machine. Hope this clarifies that very important distinction. :)
Very good comments that express key points:
- Detailed summary of the situation if you’re wondering what’s going on
- The rhetorical value of the bear hypothetical and what this means for you
- One example of why the long-term rhetorical value of the hypothetical is poor, in the context of intersectionality
- What does disenfranchisement mean in this context?
- The importance of not asking women to tone down their expressions of fear and frustration
- “But why can’t they just say it nicely?”
- The importance of participation in kindness toward young men, specifically outside the context of people speaking their experiences
Edit: This post has now been removed and restored twice. I want to encourage you all:
Be decent to one another
I think this post is a valuable thing given the current state of the Fediverse, please don’t fuck it up for us by being toxic in the comments.
there is only one truth, and it is that there is no gender war, only misdirection from class warfare that has monetized and monopolized even our interpersonal, romantic, and sexual connection.
when people don’t have problems, you can’t sell them solutions.
The shackles of sexism, racism, and homophobia do not simply fall off when you accept class consciousness. These are still fights for awareness which must continue to be fought. Otherwise, we risk allowing toxic mentalities into our midst, which will only serve to alienate and expel our minority brethren.
The cages built by the state which cordon us off from one another exist in the mind, but they are very real in impact. We must fight by destroying the cages in each of our thoughts, and pass our knowledge to others so they can do the same. That is the only means to stand as one.
Let’s also not forget that there are very real shackles placed on many groups - many real cages - which we must work to destroy as well.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains.
Noticing your chains and beginning to rattle them, and encouraging your peers to do the same, is the first step to releasing yourself from them, but it is not the only step.
It’s like when a woman goes to the doctor with terrible pain and the doctor says it’s just menstrual cramps and to go home and take an advil.
Us: “hey there’s a problem we should address”
You: “Silly
womanproletariat, justtake an advilseize the means of production”
Here’s Orwell in “Homage to Catalonia”:
“There were perhaps a thousand men at the barracks, and a score or so of women, apart from the militiamen’s wives who did the cooking. There were still women serving in the militias, though not very many. In the early battles they had fought side by side with the men as a matter of course. It is a thing that seems natural in time of revolution. Ideas were changing ready, however. The militiamen had to be kept out of the riding-school while the women were drilling there because they laughed at the women and put them off. A few months earlier no one would have seen anything comic in a woman handling a gun.”
This was in an overwhelmingly leftist camp. Orwell sees glimpses of an anarchist collective based on mutual aid popping up. Yet, sexisim clearly persisted after a period where it had been pushed aside.
These issues don’t go away just because people become class conscious.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, it is tempting to treat everything as if it were a nail.
No, we also have a sickle
I’ve got a guillotine in the garage I can break out, too, but I might need you guys to help me move it.
I’ve got a trebuchet in storage, but I need a crew to man it.
The superior seige weapon, of course.
We can lift the guillotine into a cart, and haul it behind the trebuchet as we pick everyone up.
So who’s driving? I’ve got a license but no experience with 50ft trailers (which I assume we will need for the trebuchet?)
Even if we take gender-based issues as very real (which is often not quite true since we target a demographic of literally half the planet, which is never representative), they come second to the class warfare.
A poor male worker holds way less power than a rich businesswoman.
epic intersectionality moment
I don’t think this is a good example of class struggle, at least not directly. The bear meme is valid in as much as it describes one woman’s feelings, but the truth is that in 85-90% of cases, the woman knows her attacker1. The random man is simply not the issue.
The issue is power disparity. Teacher vs student, employer vs worker, landlord vs tenant. It’s difficult to reduce the power difference due to physical strength, but the others are all changeable. More (meaningful) oversight for police, better tenancy boards, and stronger unions are all examples of structures that might make it harder to victimize women.
Class struggle explains economic, and maybe political power, but those are not the only types of power in play.
And if I’m wrong? Then we’ve made a better society for nothing.
1 https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/most-victims-know-their-attacker
i fundamentally agree with you. i think it depends on how loosely you define ‘direct’. class struggle has its fingers in many pies including
- marketing saturation / materialism
- mental health availability
- quality of education
- overall day-to-day stress levels
all of which are at odds with encouraging a more empathetic, happy, and healthy population of men. people who are angry and fearful and deprived are easier to control and sell products to than people who are kind and understanding and satisfied. a higher quality of life breeds a higher quality of people and interpersonal interactions.
Social media doesn’t often reward kindness, but that’s what is needed. Show kindness to young men, when you can. They need better guidance.
So much this. ❤️ But it’s tough.
I am making this post coming out of a comment section where women expressing their most personal and horrific experiences are getting majority downvotes, while men are yapping on and on about “the problem with feminism these days” over them and getting no shortage of likes. It’s frankly disturbing to witness.
I am trying to be kind with this (and all) posts because I recognize it is what is needed. But I also fully understand the plight of other women who get frustrated or even lash out.
Take a deep breath. Listen to one another. Be kind.
Needing to be rewarded in order to act is a property of children
It’s true that nuance does indeed often get lost in online debates, so I appreciate you for making this post.
thanks! i hope this format can catch on im kind of proud of it lol
Its a fun format, I like it :)
This meme is based AF
no u ❤️
nuance:
You are all arguing about bears, but I am over here day dreaming
Uhhhhhhh…what a horrible day to be literate
Nothing like some vintage copy pasta to sear your brain
yeah, he spelled exquisite wrong, 0/10 would not read again
Hopefully people see this and stop posting ragebait 🙏
Those young men should also choose the bear. If we explained that to them, and why, maybe the next generation wouldn’t need to.
I think you’re misunderstanding the point of the meme then
Not really. It’s saying to soften the language. I disagree. I say explain the language and why that level of anger is justified. The boys will quickly realize and be told that it’s not about them. They’ll likely also be just as mad at the s*** that goes on.
Kids are smart. If you tell them that women would pick a bear because a small percentage of men rape a large percentage of women, they’ll get that.
Women: “men are horrible rapists”
Men who are not rapists: “hey that’s pretty insulting”
Women: “oh not you, you’re one of the good ones”
Men who are not rapists: “oh well in that case please proceed with your sexism”
??
Dogs bite people. Never pet a dog you don’t know.
Outlets shock people. Always check the fuse is off at the circuit breaker.
Men are strong and brave. We draft them for war.
You’re hearing a sound bite and jumping to conclusions because your brain thinks it’s about you and gets defensive. It’s not about you. Not everything is about you. That’s was the hardest thing for me to learn as a generic white dude. Some things aren’t about me, aren’t for me, and that’s ok.
Some things aren’t about me, aren’t for me, and that’s ok.
Most countries literally have laws against that, they’re just not applied to straight white men😂
Dogs bite people. But better to pet a dog than a lion.
Outlets shock people. I’d rather use an electric heater than set a fire in my house.
This is the bear meme. It’s not about the thing. It’s about the comparison.
Many do. Why is why we have MGTOW and Andrew Tate
Because…men…make up ~80% of all murder victims, in addition to 90% of the perpetrators? According to the UN’s 2019 homicide study?
That’s why men fall into frothing inceldom and whatever Andrew Tate is doing? Because they share statistically just as much risk regarding other men as women face from men, just for a predominantly different crime?
Because that’s why they need to be choosing the bear, and that just doesn’t sound right…
You’re using the bear analogy wrong. If the bear analogy was about statistics, they’d choose the human because statistically speaking, many, many more people are helpful than harmful. Especially compared to a dangerous wild animal.
People pick the bear because they themselves have been hurt too many times or have heard of people being hurt too many times. There is a perception that the bear is safer.
That can go both ways. And often people choosing the bear can be in a vulnerable state, which the likes of Andrew Tate preys on.
If the bear analogy was about statistics, they’d choose the human because statistically speaking, many, many more people are helpful than harmful. Especially compared to a dangerous wild animal.
By its nature, there can’t be an “if.” Any conversation based around assessed probability of violence will at some point necessarily revolve around violence statistics. One cannot make an accurate decision otherwise, and it would cease to be any sort of statement at all. Would you rather choose between gleeps or glorps.
You’re not incorrect in the other points you’re making. I highly appreciate them, they’re well said, and you come off like you’ve given this considerable thought and attention. But the perception is there because it’s also a reality. The stories everyone has or knows someone who has are not fairy tales far away wherever they film the news and, statistically speaking, a random bear in the vicinity is leagues more predictable than a human, less aggressive as a result, and less dangerous should it become aggressive on account of the possibility of rape and torture.
Given the choice – while it isn’t nearly as likely from an animal that doesn’t know what humans are and mostly wants to avoid the whole mess as much as I do if allowed – I would also elect to be killed by the bear. That should be giving people pause and encourage them to reflect on the current dynamic and what can be done to fix it, and I would charitably like to think that it does. I’ve also met people before and they tend to dig in when they hear things they don’t already agree with instead of becoming as curious as they should, but I’d like to think that it does, at least for one person.
The way one deals with bears does not work for men, because there IS no reliable way to deal with men should they turn aggressive. Not even pepper spray, if they’ve experienced it before or are just particularly plucky that day. You’re supposed to run afterwards because your assailant can and will fight through it in much the same way a bear will not. I learned both these facts at about the same age, and I’m angry about that, and I’m angrier that there’s not a women in my family, or even a woman that I know, that hasn’t been assaulted at least once and/or subsequently murdered.
Your standing argument about the whole deal, if I understand it, boils down to, “Yes, but how many men didn’t rape you when they could have? Talking about your experiences is making them more likely to choose that path themselves out of insult, but probably if you’re nice enough they’ll rape you less.” …And I’m hoping you can see how that thought process sounds insultingly unhinged as well as being a little bit to the left of the point.
In painting it as only an overactive perception, you don’t sound in my opinion like you think it’s as pervasive as it actually is, or that it should be the center of the problem. Your trick of the light is my maternal grandmother, whose crime scene got me interested in forensics. My mom. Her friend, killed after the divorce went through. My best friend when she was eight. Me.
I already know the risks, and I usually don’t get a say in whether I’m going to experience them. And yet, whenever I or anyone else ask why we as a society consider it completely normal to sell and carry Man Spray, more men than one would hope are going, “Violence? What violence? What you need to do is let your guard down around me specifically. I don’t like it. You wouldn’t want to keep making me upset.”
In regards to Andrew Tate, my understanding is his followers flock to him (and similar ideologies) because he makes them feel like they belong somewhere, gives them a checklist to follow defining what success looks like, and someone to blame. His draw is the utter blowing emotional wasteland men are trapped in, still expected to be soulless robotic workers but bereft of the worth their role as Man Of The House used to have.
The role a lot of them were raised to fill doesn’t exist anymore. A lot the things they were taught to value, women can provide for themselves if they even want those things at all. Can’t ask for help with the crushing weight of it, because they either fear being or absolutely have been rejected for daring to try. Can’t carry it alone, you’ll shoot yourself eventually.
Their needs are very real, and a severe problem. The way they’ve tried to cure it isn’t even a mistake, it’s just that the group they turned to for belonging happened to be predatory.
That said, the statement, “Women are so used to being assaulted and beaten to death that they lowkey never stop scanning for threats and would like to know: what if y’all stopped that?” and the statement, “men are so isolated and emotionally under-served that they buy muscle cars and perhaps tiki torches about it” are still two very different things. I’d say one of those groups isn’t meeting with violence nearly as often as the other, but they are. That’s the problem.
What if we looked at why people keep picking the bear and took stock of what needs to be done? No… we’ll just have more rage again. We had rage for dinner last night.
Which is why the important lesson from the bear meme is that a whole lot of women are incredibly stupid. They’ll pick something that makes them feel safer over something they know is safer.
Women keep saying their safety is more important than men’s feelings but that is projection. The bear meme shows us women actually believe that women’s feelings are more important than men’s feelings.
Which is why the important lesson from the bear meme is that a whole lot of women are incredibly stupid.
Woah woah woah, hold the fuck on for two fucking seconds.
First of all, as I said before, this shit goes both ways. Men do this too.
Secondly, I did NOT say that using our perceptions is a bad way to make decisions. Multiple experienced incidents and multiple stories can create a perception of danger, and that perception may be wrong at times, but it can also be dead on at critical moments. It is a survival tactic that serves people well in general.
Ah, sorry, I took it for granted that we were on the same page about it being irrational. Taking the worst experience you’ve ever had, and expecting it to happen all the time, is a trauma response. It’s understandable, but it is in no way reasonable. I wish we could acknowledge that without women claiming we’re dismissing their lived experiences.
It’s a bit more complicated than simply taking the worst experiences someone has ever had.
Every experience, every story from friends, every story in the news, heck even portrayals in fiction, contribute to someone’s perception of an event, object, person or even group.
Now place yourself in the position of your average woman. You hear rape stories on the news, probably known a few people that have been SA’d if it hasn’t happened to you personally, and you’ve almost certainly had a few close calls at least. Are you telling me you wouldn’t have your guard up?
How are they choosing the bear? Both of those are actively hostile towards women, they don’t just “go their own way” to chill with the bear
Choosing the bear is how one starts on either path. Then they get manipulated by hate spreaders and fraudsters.
Could someone explain number 2 to me? A lot of big words, and I have trouble to understand what it’s trying to say.
It’s claiming that pushing men out of civilized communities, spaces and conversations ultimately leads to them embracing more accepting alt-right ideologies and movements.
Thank you!
Follow up question: What would be a practical example on how to achieve this? To not push men out of civilized communities that is.
Let us talk, dont immediately shut us up if we aren’t actively harming the discussion, let men know that their feelings are valid too but that they dont overshadow others feelings (jumping straight to that second half is NOT helpful). Let memes like this one exist without deleting them for lumping them in with the angry assholes
👆👆🗣️🗣️
Young men are much more likely to be non-conforming to sexist cultural/gender norms and stereotypes, which often leads to them being ostracized more by general society and makes it easier for grifters (like manosphere influencers) to take ahold of them and radicalize them with alt-right and/or extremely misogynistic beliefs.
There are plenty of amazing feminist role models, but the right’s form of propoganda is so much more enticing because it tells you that everyone else is the problem and you’re superior to others, rather than ask you to give a shot at understanding reality like leftist influences do. That goes with anything on the right, fascists are a lot more motivating and good at gaining/rallying radical supporters because it’s so much easier to get people on your side if you’re allowed to lie about everything. So naturally, impressionable – and extremely vulnerable and emotionally volatile – young men gravitate towards the extreme negative influences due to how our society and education is poorly set up to prevent that.
And in this case how sexism and toxic masculinity is deeply ingrained into our society that so many of these young men are made to feel like they’re “not real men” by those around them, it really pushes them towards this even more. Rather than reject the idea of a “real man” or a “real woman”, they embrace them even more and convince themselves that they are the realest men, and OTHERS are pathetic.
It blames women who express their fear of being scared of men for the violence commited by men against women
I think your post is exactly what is criticized by OP. In the first part of the post it is explicitly stated men should not talk over the fear of women. A message like yours seems to blame people just because they criticize the way of discussion in some places. I think it is obvious that men are influenced in a possible negative way, when they are always seen as danger. At least for me it probably contributed to my low self esteem, especially in all sex/gender related topics. I think, we as men do so much harm, I don’t want to take part in this. But i took it to the extreme, so I was ashamed of everything sexual about me. But as OP said, all of this doesn’t invalidate the feeling of any woman. But for example this situation here is not governed by fear, still it seems you can’t discuss the social effects of this sentiment “against” man, without discrediting the other side. Sure, violence done mainly to women is the most important topic. But if men always get portrayed as danger, I can understand some are open to other, more misogynist worldviews.
I’m not gonna lie, the grammar of that first sentence is quite confusing to simpleton like me.
fixed hopefully :)
Me likey
Ah yes what a fun meme, so much haha’s were had.
There is zero quality control here. I would rather see spam ads leading to shady websites than political grandstanding and ragebait at this point. At least this post isn’t being intentionally divisive.
POST RESTORED THABK YOU MODS
shitty people are just shitty, gender has nothing to do with it. Women and men are both capable of being abusers.
Man…my BIL with his baby-mama/ex-fiance. I used to work with her (that’s where they met, we all worked together at the time).
She’s so nice and bubbly on the surface but holy shit there’s a demon under that veneer and I’ve met it. That manipulative demon is how she became baby-mama after she became ex-fiance. But he puts up with it so he can keep seeing his kid and hopefully shield him from it ~half the time.
HOW DARE YOU /s
