You are underplaying the struggles of civilians in a war zone just because they happen to live on the wrong side of the border.
Civilians have all the rights to not want war on their country, at their doors, no matter which side of the border they are, and they are allowed to lament the incompetency of a government that hides critical information from them in an attempt to cover up its failures.
The Ukrainians have the right to keep fighting, and I hope they win this war. Putin is a criminal and he must pay for his crimes. This doesn’t mean that civilians caught in the crossfire are being petty.
A lot of Russians support the war, though. Those deserve what they’re getting. And they’re very lucky it’s the Ukrainians invading them, not the Russians.
I’m all for having sympathy for Russian civilians and even soldiers in some cases. I get that overt opposition to the war (and even calling at a war) is a very dangerous opinion to have out loud in Russia. I’m very sympathetic to those citizens that oppose the war and the administration, but keep quiet about it. I wish they’d do more, but I don’t expect most Russian citizens to stick their neck out like Navalny did.
All that said, Russian propaganda isn’t magic brainwashing that entirely prevents rational thought. It’s just propaganda, and many (possibly most) Russians know that it is propaganda. Unlike North Korea they’ve still had access to alternative news sources (all maybe not for much longer).
The propaganda does make it harder for the average Russian citizens to recognize this war for the atrocity it is (or even a war), but they’re not brainwashed zombies, and they’re also not morons, so they’re still responsible for their choices. If they choose to actively support this war, or if they choose to actively support this regime, that puts some blood on their hands - even if it’s mostly because they chose to continue to live in ignorance despite all the signs.
All that said, Russian propaganda isn’t magic brainwashing that entirely prevents rational thought.
You could say that about fundamentalist religion too, and yet there are a whole lot of extremists out there of various religions and a big part of it is that they were indoctrinated from birth.
I could and I do. Being born into religious fundamentalism is no more a moral get out of jail free card than being born on Russian soil. In both cases you got dealt a rough hand, but you’re still responsible for your actions. Supporting atrocities isn’t ok, no matter what your upbringing was.
the answer is - it doesn’t matter.
the biggest learning from the nazi germany was that you don’t need the entire population of a country to be homicidal psychopaths. all you need is a small group of those psychopaths, control or media, propaganda and you get a perfectly functioning system where normal everyday folks go to their normal everyday jobs.
just those jobs are in gestapo. or in maintenance of gas chambers. or making food for the equally confused soldiers.
of course, we should avoid civilian casualties as much as we can (but apparently russian army is not required) but the system needs to be stopped.
russia has cancer. chemoterapy is not a pleasant procedure that affects both ill and healthy cells. the alternative is, unfortunately, to allow that cancer to spread to the entire planet.
I’m just saying we can’t just assume these people would be in favor of the war if they weren’t forced to only consume pro-regime media. I’m sure a lot of North Koreans support the Kim regime because they’ve been indoctrinated since childhood with basically no accurate information about anything, so they just don’t know. But if you read the accounts of the ones who do end up escaping to the south, they’re just floored by how the world really is.
A lot of Americans supported the equally illegal invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, I still don’t think they deserve even how shitty their non-occupation civil government is.
Given how war works I’m almost certain there will be war crimes against the civil population here. Not as bad as what the Russians are doing in their occupied territories I sure as fuck hope and expect, but worse than anyone deserves. I can see Ukrainians getting to be a bit vindictive etc about this, they’ve earned it, but as armchair commentators online at a safe distance we should fucking show some empathy for people in a shitty situation they have very little control over.
I can’t control my government and I live in a democracy. I don’t blame Russians for most of what their state does either.
Really? Does that also count for Germans during WW2? They suffered a ton more than the Russians in Kursk do now. Just to be clear, I would be strongly opposed to fire bombing Russians (as we casually did to WW2 Germans/Japanese civilians). However, I would say that the current Ukrainian invasion into Russia falls well within the bounds of a proportional response.
I said nothing about Ukranians’ actions being unjustified, nor do we have any reason yet to think that war crimes are being committed in the area. If this brings them an inch closer to winning the war, I wholly support them.
Still, laughing at people suffering because of war is such an abhorrent behaviour to exhibit, and the fact that people are bending logic to justify it is wild.
You are underplaying the struggles of civilians in a war zone just because they happen to live on the wrong side of the border.
Civilians have all the rights to not want war on their country, at their doors, no matter which side of the border they are, and they are allowed to lament the incompetency of a government that hides critical information from them in an attempt to cover up its failures.
The Ukrainians have the right to keep fighting, and I hope they win this war. Putin is a criminal and he must pay for his crimes. This doesn’t mean that civilians caught in the crossfire are being petty.
A lot of Russians support the war, though. Those deserve what they’re getting. And they’re very lucky it’s the Ukrainians invading them, not the Russians.
But how many of them support the war because the only media available is Russian state propaganda?
I’m all for having sympathy for Russian civilians and even soldiers in some cases. I get that overt opposition to the war (and even calling at a war) is a very dangerous opinion to have out loud in Russia. I’m very sympathetic to those citizens that oppose the war and the administration, but keep quiet about it. I wish they’d do more, but I don’t expect most Russian citizens to stick their neck out like Navalny did.
All that said, Russian propaganda isn’t magic brainwashing that entirely prevents rational thought. It’s just propaganda, and many (possibly most) Russians know that it is propaganda. Unlike North Korea they’ve still had access to alternative news sources (all maybe not for much longer).
The propaganda does make it harder for the average Russian citizens to recognize this war for the atrocity it is (or even a war), but they’re not brainwashed zombies, and they’re also not morons, so they’re still responsible for their choices. If they choose to actively support this war, or if they choose to actively support this regime, that puts some blood on their hands - even if it’s mostly because they chose to continue to live in ignorance despite all the signs.
You could say that about fundamentalist religion too, and yet there are a whole lot of extremists out there of various religions and a big part of it is that they were indoctrinated from birth.
I could and I do. Being born into religious fundamentalism is no more a moral get out of jail free card than being born on Russian soil. In both cases you got dealt a rough hand, but you’re still responsible for your actions. Supporting atrocities isn’t ok, no matter what your upbringing was.
the answer is - it doesn’t matter. the biggest learning from the nazi germany was that you don’t need the entire population of a country to be homicidal psychopaths. all you need is a small group of those psychopaths, control or media, propaganda and you get a perfectly functioning system where normal everyday folks go to their normal everyday jobs.
just those jobs are in gestapo. or in maintenance of gas chambers. or making food for the equally confused soldiers.
of course, we should avoid civilian casualties as much as we can (but apparently russian army is not required) but the system needs to be stopped.
russia has cancer. chemoterapy is not a pleasant procedure that affects both ill and healthy cells. the alternative is, unfortunately, to allow that cancer to spread to the entire planet.
I’m just saying we can’t just assume these people would be in favor of the war if they weren’t forced to only consume pro-regime media. I’m sure a lot of North Koreans support the Kim regime because they’ve been indoctrinated since childhood with basically no accurate information about anything, so they just don’t know. But if you read the accounts of the ones who do end up escaping to the south, they’re just floored by how the world really is.
Of course we cannot. I agree with you that nobody is born evil or a criminal (even psychopaths are not guaranteed to become serial killers).
By all means, if not for propaganda, we would live in a very different world.
But the unfortunate fact is that they did consume enough of that propaganda to do nothing, or worse, follow the orders.
Yes, they are not criminals by nature, but what they do is crime or at least they are an accessory. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_(legal_term)
I think you mean peripheral https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peripheral
A lot of Americans supported the equally illegal invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, I still don’t think they deserve even how shitty their non-occupation civil government is.
Given how war works I’m almost certain there will be war crimes against the civil population here. Not as bad as what the Russians are doing in their occupied territories I sure as fuck hope and expect, but worse than anyone deserves. I can see Ukrainians getting to be a bit vindictive etc about this, they’ve earned it, but as armchair commentators online at a safe distance we should fucking show some empathy for people in a shitty situation they have very little control over.
I can’t control my government and I live in a democracy. I don’t blame Russians for most of what their state does either.
That’s a stretch to call the USA a democracy with all tactics to keep right-wingers in power.
You’re not making a point here about the situation, but you are making a point about yourself.
Don’t suggest you’re okay with collective punishment: we’re supposed to still hate war crimes.
What war crimes have the Ukrainians committed so far?
People crying for these Russians, who are in relative safety and who were free to go, are just comical to me.
Where were you when all these Ukrainian cities were shelled and other war crimes happened?
Really? Does that also count for Germans during WW2? They suffered a ton more than the Russians in Kursk do now. Just to be clear, I would be strongly opposed to fire bombing Russians (as we casually did to WW2 Germans/Japanese civilians). However, I would say that the current Ukrainian invasion into Russia falls well within the bounds of a proportional response.
I said nothing about Ukranians’ actions being unjustified, nor do we have any reason yet to think that war crimes are being committed in the area. If this brings them an inch closer to winning the war, I wholly support them.
Still, laughing at people suffering because of war is such an abhorrent behaviour to exhibit, and the fact that people are bending logic to justify it is wild.
You all should learn some empathy.