And I’m being serious. I feel like there might be an argument there, I just don’t understand it. Can someone please “steelman” that argument for me?
Steelman:
The US is currently a fascist, imperialist state. It has brutalized the global south, indigenous people, and POCs generally since its founding and will continue to do so unless the status quo is disrupted and changed significantly.
The Democratic party supports the same militaristic policies and the same neoliberal economic system that the Republicans do. The primary difference between the parties are various social issues that may make life somewhat better or worse for US citizens, but will never address the core problems of fascism, imperialism, and capitalism. Both parties support and protect the status quo. This status quo only benefits the bourgeois class and rich white people and harms literally hundreds of millions of others around the world.
The Democratic party is the only one of the two major parties that the Left has any degree of leverage over since the Democrats want the Left to vote for them. So, organizing to essentially boycott the Democratic party is a powerful method of protest that could effect real policy change. It is possibly the only effective method of protest left since the US police & surveilance state is cracking down on protests and the Left has no chance protesting violently against the most powerful military the world has ever seen.
The only way to make that threat matter to the Democratic party is to follow through if the demands aren’t met, even - or especially - if it means a second Trump term.
The liberal establishment has ignored and abandoned the working class for decades while dangling the carrot of milktoast social democratic reforms that rarely come to pass, but they blame the same people they abandoned for not energetically voting for them. They say it is a moral imperative to vote for them, but they are incapable of bettering the lives of working class people.
Strawman:
It would hurt my feelings too much to vote for COPmala Harm-us. Plus, Trump would let Putin annex Ukraine. Also, I’d risk touching grass if I went outside to participate in bourgeois electoralism. Gross.
Reality:
You can, and should, do more than one thing. Voting for Kamala is effectively playing defense against outright, full-throated fascism a la Mussolini even if you’d still consider the US fascist - it is clearly worse under Republicans. So vote, play defense, AND organize to raise class consciousness, provide mutual aid, protest when possible, and contribute to socialist causes. Letting Trump win would be a bad move. But, ultimately it is not the Left’s fault that he won. He won the popular vole and the electoral college vote by a large margin - larger than all third party socialist/socialist-adjacent candidates’ votes combined.
Buddy, you haven’t seen American fascism yet. Part of the problem is that people like you scream “fascist” so much that it’s lost it’s power. A fascist like Trump would have never been able to pull this off if that word hadn’t been trivializec.
Lemme tell the millions of children that have gone through the migrant camps, separated from their family, some of whom have disappeared, that their jailors aren’t fascists. Let me tell the latino women who have been forcibly neutered without their knowledge or consent that they’re trivializing fascism. Let’s go to those who were detained in Abu Ghraib, if any of them are still alive, that their abduction, rape, and torture by laughing US soldiers doesn’t count, it’s what happens to americans that’s worrying.
Honestly, this is the fucking smugness of somebody who knows they’re safe as long as they mask, because they’ve been safe as fascists have massively incarcerated and enslaved black people, as they’ve made ghettos of bipoc neighborhoods, as far right terrorists have shot up black churches and gay bars and lynchings are back on the up and up. Because that was trivial, what’s not trivial is if it can happen to them. Fuck dems fr.
Latinos voted heavily in favor of trump. They seem to want to be victimized.
The ones who voted for Trump voted because they think they’re not talking about them. The horrible violence will be visited upon whomever is to blame, and they don’t know anyone who’s to blame, so they have nothing to fear.
Dems do that shit too, what they’re ok with are death squads in Gaza, Nicaragua, Ukraine, because the Americans orchestrating and perpetrating those crimes against humanity would certainly never come back and apply their knowledge at home, where they live, surely. What’s more american than that?
This was a thread about making the specific argument you’re mad at me for making
Before I start let me note that in the end this particular group of people didn’t affect the election. Harris is on the way to losing all swing states. Her failure is much deeper than Gaza policy. Blaming anti-genocide voters for this is just copium.
With that out of the way, you can divide people with this position into two groups: Arab Americans and everyone else. Arab Americans are people who are feeling the genocide firsthand. So, obviously, they tried to appeal to the Harris campaign and get them to move from Biden’s position on the topic. The result: They were either ignored or antagonized by Harris. That led to the abandon Harris campaign in Michigan and elsewhere. Harris considered those people acceptable casualties in her failure of a campaign, and so they were burnt out and the momentum behind the Uncommitted movement and others turned from “let’s save our Palestinian brothers” to “fuck us and Palestine (because let’s face it, that’s basically what Harris was saying)? Then fuck you too”. Harris thew them under the bus and was thrown under the bus in turn. Maybe not very logical, but a very predictable reaction. Harris treated Arab Americans with just that much contempt, and then she and her enablers had the gall to tell the people attending a funeral every other day to “shut up and vote for her”.
Now as for everyone else, it’s a more simple instance of taking a stand against a politician for doing something you cannot accept. Now there is a pragmatic idea here that if you allow the DNC to get away with this they’ll think supporting genocide actually wins elections, or that their electorate are such pussies that it doesn’t matter what they think. Add in the goal of pressuring Harris to drop that policy that was important at the start of the Harris campaign and of course the idea of not wanting to vote for genocide and this was the result.
Of course it’s not all 100% logical, but there is logic here beyond “omg bad guy I no vote”.
You’re wrong that it didn’t impact the outcome. MI flipped to Trump directly because of the uncommitted movement. Slotkin won the senate race, but Trump won by a narrow margin. Independent votes and low turn out siphoned off enough to make that happen. Low turn out also directly impacted the results. PA is a different story, but low turn out was true there, too
You’re wrong that it didn’t impact the outcome. MI flipped to Trump directly because of the uncommitted movement.
I mean maybe (I haven’t seen the turnout numbers as opposed to protest/non-voters) but the point is that Harris lost before Michigan even finished counting. She could’ve won Michigan and she still wasn’t winning this, is the point.
Low turn out also directly impacted the results. PA is a different story, but low turn out was true there, too
I mean yeah, because the DNC pushed an unelectable candidate whose position was a mix of “nothing will fundamentally change”, wishy washy non-promises and right wing positions. I doubt even 10% of the 15 million in reduced turnout came from Uncommitted and similar movements. The DNC blew it; it’s that simple.
Michigan and Wisconsin, 25 electoral points. You can’t just lose swing states like she did.
Pennsylvania absolutely over biden economic policies. Screaming the economy is doing great! I wouldnt change a thing! While people struggle to afford groceries isnt going to win you an election.
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Because the standard for Democrats is perfectionism, but the standard for Republicans is “That’s just Trump being Trump.”
In other words, they didn’t think it through, they got suckered by propaganda.
the standard for democrats is hypocrisy & ignorance same as the republicans. keep mocking genocide, egg prices
The arguments against voting in the USA sound similar to the trolley problem
Some people wouldnt choose to be the reason of the death of one person even if doing nothing causes the death of multiple people
That just means you value your own ability to evade blame over the lives of real people.
This is very american - these Gaza supporters protest the suffering of people thousands of miles away and yet think it is okay to bring suffering to everyone in his/her own street
Almost like they are paying for the people suffering thousands of miles away?
Do you have a brain by any chance?
It’s the trolley problem. You see a trolley about to kill 5 people. You can pull a lever (vote) and make the trolley only kill 1. In this case, that 1 person is also in the lineup of 5. This distinction makes it obvious the only option is to pull the lever (vote).
They mistakenly believe that by pulling the lever they are complicit in the trolley. That by interacting with the trolley on the trolley’s terms, they are consenting to the trolley’s actions.
I used to believe that too once… Once.
I was disabused of that notion before 2012, but sadly not enough people were.
Inaction is also an action. You’re always playing the game, might as well learn the rules.
I agree that people should’ve voted, but I disagree with this one-dimensional line of thinking. I can see the argument that by voting for the democrats their current behaviour and this fucked up system as a whole is warranted. It’s not as simple as “why not vote, it costs you nothing”. By voting this horrible “democracy” is legitimised and the democrats and the system will not change their approach. The US deserves a democracy that actually allows for representation instead of this duopoly of garbage and more garbage
Not voting doesn’t do anything but make you feel better about yourself. No one in power cares that you didn’t vote. They actually love low voter turnout because it’s an easier demographic to hit
I disagree. The margins seem thin enough that people fed up with either party can absolutely ruin them in the swing states. If you were to disagree with one of the parties, you could absolutely give them a signal by not voting. Preferably such a person would also make very clear why they refuse to vote for a party, because otherwise it’s indeed just lazy and empty.
Again, I think that people who do so are shooting themselves (and everyone else) in the foot. But I can see their motivation.
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To start, we have to understand that the genocide of Palestine started before the October 7th attacks. Israel’s rampant illegal settlements in the Gaza strip may have been the final straw that provoked Hamas to make a move, but Palestinians have been abused, forced into ghettos, and murdered by private citizens for decades. All of this, and nobody in the West ever really batted an eye at the suffering except for a handful of informed leftists.
If Harris had won, the most likely outcome is that the immediate conflict would eventually be paused, just like it paused after the second intifadas. No land would be returned, no settlements removed, but Hamas’ forces would be decimated to the point they could not fight back and Israel would return to their quiet slow genocide until the stars align to renew their attack once more.
Now that Trump has won, the most likely outcome is…that the immediate conflict will eventually pause, just like it paused after the second intifadas. Israel isn’t an island, if they ramp up their aggression ever further, eventually other parts of the world will push for sanctions on Israel. A Trump win doesn’t suddenly give Israel carte blanch to build the gas chambers, they still have to pay lip service to international law. Israel will inflict a grievous wound on Hamas, deep enough that it will take another generation before conflict resumes, and go back to expanding their settlements.
This genocide has been happening since before I was born, and multiple Democrat presidents have had an opportunity to say something or work towards curbing Israeli aggression. They’ve all vaguely promised to work towards a two-state solution, knowing that the current two states are what they want. If Kamala Harris couldn’t even call it a genocide, then she was no different, and it would be foolish to think she would actually take any steps towards meaningfully stopping Israel.
Israel will inflict a grievous wound on Hamas, deep enough that it will take another generation before conflict resumes, and go back to expanding their settlements.
Expanding settlements is continuing the violent conflict, just not as open warfare.
People are tired of voting for the lesser evil. So now big evil won, and the idea is that that will teach little evil to stop being at all evil.
On a more serious note, I think for a lot of people Gaza was the drop that spilled the glass rather than THE reason they didn’t support Harris.
Non voters are just as responsible for the loss of democracy. They are not a single bit better than any MAGA even if they like to claim they are. They chose fascism over democracy
America hasnt had a democracy my entire life.
It did. It was just a flawed democracy. Now it will be full on fascism. So instead of hope it will get better one day it has gone the worst possible outcome and will not get better until the entire country looks like Berlin '45
yawn no it isn’t. I recommend you spend some more time learning american history and less time spouting your nonsense from across the pod.
Think of voting this way:
Signing your name to a candidate/psrty and what they’ve done/signaled they will do.
A lot of people can’t stomach a candidate who has been courting the neocons and softening their previous mildly progressive stances from the last time dems had a primary and the progressives were showing up in numbers. Everyone got in line and the debates were about M4A, erasing federally held student debt, raising the minimum wage, etc. Sanders single handedly dragged the party to the center (technically more “left” than they were) in 2016/2020 and the dems responded by po’mouthing like they cared about those issues, but then circled the wagons and kicked those voters to the curb.
The party has shown over and over again that they don’t give a shit about working class people, those of us that want real change. They want to maintain the status quo. Which is progressively more hostile capitalism.
Signing your name to that constant move rightward is unthinkable for some. And understandably so.
And that’s before we even discuss the ongoing genocide in Gaza funded and armed by the US. While this administrations representatives in the UN and in any official capacity constantly run defense for the genocide.
Plenty of people could not fathom putting their name on that tragedy.
None of this means that republicans aren’t fuckin neofascist shits. But…how many times have the voters left of the dems been told to eat shit and vote blue because the other guy is worse? WHILE CONSTANTLY COURTING THE RIGHTWING VOTERS WHO MAY HAVE FINALLY GOTTEN SICK OF IT?! Kamala literally said she would be different from Biden by having a Republican in her cabinet. WHAT.
With everything going on, this party said, “yeah, fuck all that. Let’s see if we can grab anyone to the right of us.”
I got sidetracked, but this is the thing. It’s not binary, because geopolitics isn’t binary. The worlds issues aren’t binary. But a binary choice is all we’re given to make.
Just…what. And neither of those two choices was actually going to solve the problems. One was maintaining the problems while one was the problems plus more problems. That’s not an attractive choice.
We all get that trump is much worse. But everyone else needs to understand how sickening that shitty choice was for anyone with a conscience about what’s going on in Gaza, what’s going on with their neighbors. Signing on for more of the same was completely unthinkable for some. That has to be understandable if we are ever going to change things.
We’ve been on the road we’re being forced down now as long as I’ve been around. And the road just keeps going forward. The dems’ proposal is “maintain the course.” The republicans’ was “mash the gas.”
Some people couldn’t stomach going any further down this road. That’s not making a choice to mash the gas. Because the world is not binary.
But you and everyone else posing similar questions is saying “how could you vote for mashing the gas by not wanting to continue down this road?? :(“
- Due to the failings of the electoral college system, my state was almost guarenteed to vote the same way as it has for the last 30 years
- I did not strongly agree with either party/candidate
- I dispise the current two party system that both major parties are incentivized to maintain
- Voting for a third party who is incentivised to push for change via ranked voting and other methods does aid them even if they don’t win
If my state was likely to be contested, I may have voted differently. Voting for a third party in my case however had a greater impact than fighting or joining the tide of my state
Voting third party is fine. Protest voting is acceptable, though this result still fucking sucks. Strategic voting doesn’t have to be the default choice.
Anybody that did NOT vote, thinking it would be any sort of protest, is completely idiotic. Self imposed disenfranchisement only forfeits your own ability to say anything about the results.
What’s the counter-argument in favor of genocide?
More importantly the vast majority of votes don’t matter because the system was created by slavers in order to guarantee their oppression never ends.
What’s the counter-argument in favor of genocide?
Thw arguement is the party that has been calling for a cease fire since the start if the conflict versus the one that will actively encourage Netanyahu.
One lues about it and one boasts. Both are the same.
Don’t worry. Trump won. You’ll hear a whole lot less about Gaza and genocide now.
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I think people need to stop asking why didn’t people vote for Harris and as why DID people vote for Trump.
I think everyone on the whole, is completely underestimating the completely apathetic to politics voter. There is a TREMENDOUS section of the population that would sway from Trump if they felt energized to do so. Kamala was not it. Her policies were not it. Her stance alone on Gaza was not enough (but should not be dismissed).
People voted for trump because they: are a huge supporter, or they felt they had a fatter wallet during his administration. They feel burned by Biden and Kamala is more of the same. Democrats have no one to blame but themselves.
Biden shouldn’t have even run, no one wanted it. He even said he’d be a transitional president. Then he backed out and Democrats held no primary. Why would any apathetic voter (especially the ones who were unaware Biden dropped out, check google trends) vote for the guy who made their bank accounts smaller if that’s all they care about?
I voted for Harris but not without reservations. The democrats do nothing to resonate with the left, and continue to distance themselves from leftist policies, which were popular on ballot measures this election.
I think some people have explained it decently, but as someone who did not vote for Harris, I have a simple explanation:
I do not want the Democratic party to think it’s Ok to be slightly better than Trump.
If I’m going to be honest, trans rights and immigration are minor issues compared to inequality and war in Gaza.
The Dems can be better, but they choose not to. Me voting for Dems signals that what Dems are doing is acceptable, but it’s not. I supported third party in 2024, and I will continue to do so until the Democrats get serious reform.
(For those who think it would be “less bad” with Harris, that’s the problem. I don’t care for “less bad” when the duopoly got us here regardless. Represent the people.)
For the love of all that is holy, do not assume that they will figure out everything you just typed above from the fact that you didn’t vote for them.
I don’t actually agree with your choice, but I do agree with this:
The Dems can be better, but they choose not to.
So please, if you have convinced yourself that withholding one vote out of tens of millions will somehow send them the message you are trying to send, please also convince yourself that it would be even more effective to drop them a line and let them know how you feel in explicit detail.
https://democrats.org/contact-us/
Same message for everyone else who chose a protest vote on Tuesday. It’s all great to feel like you did the right thing, but maybe now question whether your message will actually be received, and be sure that it does. Otherwise you put Trump in for literally nothing.
I like your reasoning. I’m a libertarian myself, so I get it.
But I held my nose and voted Democrat the last two Presidential elections because I think Trump is a uniquely dangerous person. I hate the “this time is different” argument, but I actually think it applied this time.
That’s fair and I respect your decision.
I was excited about Obama. For whatever reason I thought he’d be a lot more progressive than he ended up being.
I phone banked for Clinton. Was never a fan, but I agree that Trump was/is uniquely dangerous.
I voted for Biden. He was explicitly picked to be the conservative balance to the liberal firebrand, Obama (😬), but hey vote Blue no matter who, right?
The counterpoint to this thinking, for me: Where does this end? Do I stick it out until the next “unimportant” Presidential election? At what point am I just enabling the Dems to run rightward to pick up imaginary centrist Republicans while ignoring the left and the working class?
I doubt the DNC will learn their lesson from this election. I hoped they’d learn from a win, but I pray they take this loss to heart. The idea that Republicans somehow convinced people that they’re the party of unions and the working class is laughable, but if they could do that, that says Dems aren’t making the difference in people’s lives that they should be.
So, instead of selecting the better of two bad options (according to you), you chose the worse of two bad options. And that’s supposed to make some sort of point?
Do I shoot myself in the foot or the head? The head, that’ll show em!
X to doubt.
I voted for the Unity party largely to make this point. I live in Colorado. That’s “shooting myself in the head”?
I heard someone say “Well what if so many voters vote third party that they lose the state?” In this scenario…if Colorado is even close…it’s a fantasy to think they’d still have Pennsylvania, Florida, Ohio, or Texas. There is no path to 270 that doesn’t involve Colorado being firmly blue enough that vote won’t change anything.
I respect the right of people in swing states to vote their conscience as well, but that’s obviously a different consideration. But the vitriol a lot of Dems have without even asking where someone lives is just weird.
Good for you, you helped get Trump elected! 👍
Ok. Sure. Myself and millions of others helped get Trump elected. Hopefully you can figure out how to appeal to us next election.
Right. Need to support everyone, universal healthcare, universal basic income, without religion, no with religion, with feminism, with support for men’s rights, with support for immigration, not too much support for immigration, with support for small businesses, without enabling corporate America, and ranked choice voting, and younger people, more minorities, elect a woman, with more communism, no, more socialism, with consequences for the right, with unity for all and put the past behind us etc etc etc.
We get Trump because some entitled fuckers from every. single. camp. (often with conflicting interests) say “earn MY vote” or go to hell. The straight white cis bible thumping camp is voting as a bloc all the time. This is why D can’t get anything done: there is no sparkling unicorn candidate. Sometimes a little better is all you get. Lefties complain about people on the right being single issue voters, then turn around and single issue don’t vote.
Thanks for the nut punch of a president.
I know you’re memeing, but to be honest, yes, I want a President whose platform is somewhat like what you described. Obviously I disagree with some random parts (i.e. “with more communism, no, more socialism, with consequences for the right”), but for heavens sake, at least the theoretical person running for President above is trying something new. They would get my vote.
This is what the Right is doing with Trump after all, and clearly people like it.
Wouldn’t that be great, and I hope you get the chance to vote for it if such a candidate emerges. The extra gerrymandering and crippling of voter rights or just, you know, suspension of elections between now and then may have something to say about it though.
Trump is not doing anything but saying “I’ll do this! And I’ll do that! And I’m the best at this!” And as long as he says enough bullshit all the voters say “of course he lies and says what he needs to say to get elected, but not about my thing!” Even if every week he contradicts the last thing he says.
Short memories, unsophisticated voters, and single issue voting mean this strategy will basically always work. Remember, they have voters with single issue in, and you (or at least many in this thread or on Lemmy) are single issue out. Maybe well meaning, but functionally not a particularly smarter approach to getting the best available leader. It’s all “Fuck you, me!” and take the rest of us with you.
You are unreachable
Thanks for enabling Trump you ginormous ass hat. I will remember your entitled self righteous indignation when Ukraine falls. When Trump talks about eradicating the Palestinian people. And when Russia starts taking small bites of NATO countries, while Trump refuses to respond to article 5 requests.
Sending a message to the democratic party was something you could have done before the election. By getting involved. But noooo let’s send the message by handing the US to a fascist and convicted felon, that’s far easier.
Edit: I just saw the .ml now. Good one tankie, you got me all riled up. I believe you can now collect a kopek from your boss for your trouble.
You can disagree with that guy. That’s fine. But you need to understand that your attitude mirrors the attitude of the democratic party, and it literally just cost them the election.
Ignore the people who want change, assuming they’ll vote for you anyway is a great way to get them to vote for someone else.
Reform or fail.
Democrats are alright with failure, they’re gonna make serious bank anyway. Their voters, though? Idk why they act like they are part of this campaign, when they might as well have been cardboard cutouts as far as the DNC is concerned. They’re the worst kind of politicucked.
What’s so weird to me is how Americans can just be “oh bother! The not fascist prodemocracy party lost. If only I would care enough to do something, oh well better luck next time.” why aren’t you guys screaming?
Trump’s relationship with Putin is going to change the current world order. You know the world? It’s where the US is?
If that’s too abstract, then look at the remaining SCOTUS judges. With Trump in the Whitehouse then Alito and Thomas can step down and be replaced with more Gen Xers ensuring right-wing dominance for the next 30 years. Repealing Roe v Wade is going to be dwarfed by the what’s coming now.
Harris wasn’t ideal. Harris was as interesting as a corporate newsletter. But at least she wasn’t a threat to democracies worldwide. Harris would have meant less injustice, but not “no injustice”. But because people couldn’t get no injustice, they stayed home and got 20x the injustice they would have gotten otherwise. And now they’re justifying that? GTFO!
The US political system is broken. But it’s broken deliberately by one side to suit them, while the other side is too busy blaming each other for their own common failures to do anything.
why aren’t you guys screaming?
I screamed when Bush won a second term. I screamed when Trump won his first term. The American people can’t really let me down any further than they already have.
Do you mean rioting? The guy even won the popular vote, possibly fair and square. Are you under the impression that there is some action we can take at this point to improve the situation?
because people couldn’t get no injustice, they stayed home
That’s not a valid interpretation of the situation. Millions of people who voted for Biden did not come out for Kamala. There’ll be a lot of people trying to discern why and you probably won’t like my guess, but it’s too early to really have good information. Exit polls said only about 10 percent of people cared about Gaza at all. This idea of progressives not voting, sending the election to Trump doesn’t hold water at all. Dems first instinct is to punch left. I hope they learn a better lesson from this loss.
People who don’t vote aren’t hanging out on Lemmy talking about politics. All of the vitriol from Democrats is even more misplaced than usual. This outcome was pretty much what I thought would happen, but when I talk about how Dem decisions aren’t exciting voters, the response is to admonish me to vote, missing the point entirely.
it’s broken deliberately by one side to suit them,
Refusing to admit the part the Dems play is part of the problem as well. We can’t keep doing the same thing we’ve always done, and if we don’t learn from this we are truly doomed.
Ok, so I’ll be straight with you. I want to respond to your whole comment, but I need to stop engaging in these discussions. So know that I read all that you wrote, and I want to respond to everything. But I need to limit myself.
Do you mean rioting? […]
I don’t know. I don’t think so. But something has to be done, and it can’t wait until the next election. I’m not advocating violence. Part of me wants to say “eat the rich” and “if enough people shows up with torches and pitchforks, what is Musk going to do?”
But violence isn’t solving anything, and besides it would play right into the MAGA dream of a civil war. What has to happen is to copy what MAGA has been doing. Go after local positions. Put prodemocracy persons on school boards, town councils, election boards. Vote in prodemocracy officials like prosecutors, judges, and sheriffs (if any of them aren’t just appointed by now)
The guy even won the popular vote, possibly fair and square. Are you under the impression that there is some action we can take at this point to improve the situation?
He only won the popular vote because of the inactions of good people. Prodemocracy movements need an inspiring leader and a cause. Apparently “save the US, save the world” wasn’t inspiring enough. IDK what would be, but getting the non fascist Americans motivated and organized is imperative.
Refusing to admit the part the Dems play is part of the problem as well. We can’t keep doing the same thing we’ve always done, and if we don’t learn from this we are truly doomed.
I agree, and the part of that paragraph you didn’t quote says pretty much the same thing.
Yeah people just care about bread on the table and the roof over their head. Telling 150 million voting Americans to care about the world is falling on early 100 million deaf ears.
75 million don’t care, or actively dislike anybody outside the US.
Another 38 million only care as long as it’s convenient. And right now it’s not convenient.
Maybe 10-15 million are anti Republican because they’re lgbtq+.
Of the 150 million voters, 80 million are voting on a single issue. And for many of them, it’s either for or against abortion.
We’ve been supplying the West with a military for decades. We put more in to our ministry, and by extension every NATO member country’s military than the rest of NATO combined. We don’t have social programs, no healthcare, no child care, under funded education, no paid sick leave, no parental leave. We have a big shiney military.
People can’t afford to take a day off for the flu and they’re supposed to care about Europe?
Big ask mate. People here care about how they’re doing today and tomorrow. Not Ukraine 6 months from now.
I get it, I do. Far removed consequences, in either time or distance, are hard to get motivated by, especially if you have issues closer to yourself. All the things you list are not exactly stuff Trump’s going to provide. I mean he wanted to get rid of the ACA in his first term.
Problem is that being a superpower requires maintenance. It would seem that Trump doesn’t want to maintain that status https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2024/01/trump-2024-reelection-pull-out-of-nato-membership/676120/
I don’t want Europe’s security policies to be dependent on the US. What my country’s governments have been doing since the 80s is nothing short of irresponsible. FFS in the Danish navy the largest vessels are our two frigates, crewed by 100 personnel each. One isn’t seaworthy and the other can’t fire its main gun, because we only have one targeting system, and it’s on the other ship. Luckily it seems that my government has been awakened. And it would seem that a lot of other countries have been too.
But in the end, if Russia can get a seize fire in Ukraine, if Trump can get the Ukrainians to stop defending themselves. Then Putin will be able to regroup, and be able to rebuild his armed forces to be able to attack NATO countries, while Trump’s still president. And if NATO falls, because the US doesn’t get involved, then what’s stopping China from sinking some American boats to secure the South China Sea? While Iran goes full force on Isreal and North Korea invades the south?
I’m not saying that it’s a given, but this scenario is far more likely with Trump at the wheel than almost anyone else.
So while world peace isn’t the sole responsibility of the US, it kind of depends on the US at the moment.
It wouldn’t have mattered anyway. Third party votes didn’t total up enough to make a difference if Harris got them all or not. I can’t blame people for acting in accordance with their conscience whether I agree with it or not. What’s done is done. Let’s move on and figure out the next steps we need to take.
