There have been various posts here in the last days describing how difficult it is for new people to start using Lemmy. In fact they are absolutely correct, it is much easier to get started on Reddit. But what many forget is that Lemmy is not a corporation employing dozens of full-time designers, running A/B-tests and so on. Lemmy is an open source project run by volunteers, with only @dessalines and me working on it full-time. Neither of us is a particularly good designer, and our time is mainly spent working on the backend (database, federation, api), and preparing the upcoming 1.0 release.

If you see anything on join-lemmy.org or in the Lemmy UI itself that could be improved, the best option is to make that improvement yourself. Both of them use standard web technologies (nodejs, tailwindcss, inferno etc). The userbase here is quite technical so there are many of you able to contribute. We rarely reject any pull requests as long as they make a real improvement. Though it usually requires a little back and forth to review the changes and then address the review comments.

You can find the source code for join-lemmy.org here and follow development instructions in the readme. Regarding the default Lemmy UI go here and read the documentation with development instructions. If you are not a developer you can still help, for example by improving the documentation. Additionally you can make changes to the texts for joinlemmy and lemmy-ui.

All this said, there have also been some suggestions to make onboarding easier by directing new users to a hardcoded default instance. This may sound like a good idea at first but won’t work well in practice. Running such an instance would take significant time for administration and moderation, but we maintainers are already too busy. Besides it would be impossible to reach an agreement who this default instance should federate with or how exactly it should be moderated. So if you want to get nontechnical users to Lemmy, the solution is to link them directly to a specific instance based on their interests.

  • Rowan Thorpe@lemmy.mlEnglish
    1·
    6 days ago

    In terms of the “default instance” suggestion, I have an interesting hybrid suggestion. What about having an “easy on-ramp” instance where you get registered for one month with a hard-exit (auto-migrate to other instance, perhaps using some kind of federated-auth/token system for the migration, and forced password-setup on first use of the new instance). At any point during on-ramp the user could configure destination-instance from a list in the settings (or configure auto-export for manual import to any other “auto-migrate-unsupported” instance), with optional early-migration if the user has decided before the end of the month. Optionally a recommendation engine could iteratively curate a list of suggested instances based on usage during on-ramp (admins of those instances could provide - limited number of - tags of their choosing for the engine to use for matching). That part could be opt-in because probably a lot of users would find it creepy. The UX would need to be very user-friendly “pointy clicky” because that would be the overwhelming target demographic of such an instance. I think “on-boarding and educating” is better than “gatekeeping” (which feels like the “if you need to ask the price you can’t afford it” shopping trope). A nice side-effect is it already painlessly introduces users to the killer-feature “easy migration” between instances due to data-portability.

    • nutomic@lemmy.mlOPEnglish
      2·
      5 days ago

      That would take a significant amount of work to implement, and we dont have the resources for it. But all the code is open source, so youre welcome to give it a try yourself.

  • .Donuts@lemmy.worldEnglish
    89·
    8 days ago

    The userbase here is quite technical so there are many of you able to contribute.

    As a project manager, I can help by ballooning the scope and setting the deadline to yesterday! Doing my part!

      • jballs@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
        4·
        8 days ago

        Honestly, if my PM never pestered me about the status of my tickets, I would never close them. Some of us need the pestering!

    • letsgo@lemm.eeEnglish
      2·
      7 days ago

      Oh, I can do project management too!

      Your next task is waves hands around … the thing … waves hands around some more … like the other thing … but different.

  • AnonomousWolf@lemm.eeEnglish
    321·
    8 days ago

    I’m the OP of one of the posts that blew up about UX.

    This is great news, I will look into building something like join-lemmy/onboarding that could guide users, or improving join-lemmy

    • nutomic@lemmy.mlOPEnglish
      17·
      8 days ago

      I do, although the sections in Mordor are a bit tedious to get through. But its worth it for all the details that were left out of the movies.

        • nutomic@lemmy.mlOPEnglish
          7·
          8 days ago

          I definitely plan to read the Silmarillion, because the history of middle earth sounds so interesting.

          • serfraser@sopuli.xyzEnglish
            5·
            8 days ago

            It’s worth it! I only read it last year and it gave me a whole new level of appreciation for the other stories.

            • imaqtpie@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
              2·
              8 days ago

              Once you’ve read the Silmarillion, there’s also The Children of Húrin. If you start from the Hobbit > LOTR > Silmarillion > CoH, it’s basically a steady progression of increasing epicness and tragedy.

              I suppose the Silmarillion is the most epic, but Children of Húrin is the most intensely tragic.

  • sabreW4K3@lazysoci.alEnglish
    19·
    8 days ago

    All this said, there have also been some suggestions to make onboarding easier by directing new users to a hardcoded default instance. This may sound like a good idea at first but won’t work well in practice. Running such an instance would take significant time for administration and moderation, but we maintainers are already too busy. Besides it would be impossible to reach an agreement who this default instance should federate with or how exactly it should be moderated. So if you want to get nontechnical users to Lemmy, the solution is to link them directly to a specific instance based on their interests.

    Wholeheartedly agree with this. Also people should get use to taking responsibility for their online experiences. Corporations have made people stupid to the point they reject autonomy.

  • lgsp@feddit.it@feddit.itEnglish
    161·
    8 days ago

    I don’t think that Reddit is so much better. The interface at the moment is full of ads that make i confusing. The only thing is the community search that is a bit cumbersome, but this is due to federation, and understood. On the other hand the federation with Mastodon/Friendica/whatever is super-powerful, hand honestly enjoyable

    Thank you for all your work

  • travis-j@rblind.comEnglish
    12·
    7 days ago

    The great thing about Lemmy is that it is an open source project and you can tweak the UI yourself if you have a bit of HTML and CSS knowledge. Do not be put off by fancy words like Bootstrap, Inferno, Tailwind, many are just HTML, CSS, or Javascript under the hood.

    If anyone on here is looking for a more a more accessible Lemmy theme, I helped make one recently for the instance RBlind: RBlind Lemmy Themes (Codeberg repo). I made detailed documentation as well which could be helpful for theme developers or for those interested in helping improve Lemmy’s accessibility.

    Since making the theme, I’ve been making some pull requests (PRs) with lemmy-ui and lemmy-docs to try improve the UI and docs based on some of the things I saw while developing the theme. I hadn’t done anything involving PRs before but the Lemmy team dessalines and nutomic and other contributors have been very receptive so far and offering helpful suggestions. The changes are small but every bit counts, and when they trickle down to all users I am hoping it’ll be a positive change for many users.

  • Rikudou_Sage@lemmings.worldEnglish
    12·
    8 days ago

    My proposal have been a little more complicated, but IMO works well for a BFU:

    • create some set of rules for “default instances” - every instance that wants to be in the list must follow them and will be periodically checked
      • I don’t have any particular rules in mind, but some examples might include active moderation team, obviously registrations being open and if you really want to make it easy, either no application question or having it automatically approved by an automod of some kind
    • on join-lemmy, present a registration form that will create an account on a randomly selected instance from the pool and redirect there afterwards
    • there should be a link somewhere for “experts” where you could link to the current wizard

    I’m willing to work on this if we can sit down and agree on the criteria for the pool. I can also ask my UX guy to help a little.

    Feel free to text me here or on Matrix if this is something you think is worth pursuing. I’d also appreciate if you let me know it’s not the direction you want to go in.

    • CosmicTurtle0@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
      71·
      8 days ago

      I would call them “starter” instances. And I’m in agreement there should be a set of principles that these instances should follow but at the same time telling new users that it’s okay to switch instances. I started in .world but moved due to their increasingly conservative changes.

      While I personally would steer new users away from .world, I think it’s more important to tell them it’s okay to switch instances.

    • Blaze (he/him) @lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
      52·
      8 days ago

      I don’t have any particular rules in mind, but some examples might include active moderation team, obviously registrations being open and if you really want to make it easy, either no application question or having it automatically approved by an automod of some kind

      Hexbear meets those requirements, which rule would you add to exclude them? Back in the day, exploding heads would fit them too

      • ArtificialHoldings@lemmy.worldEnglish
        5·
        8 days ago

        maybe they should need to maintain a certain percentage of high pop instances that federate with them. Basically establishing a standard of trust.

        “At least 80% of instances with over 1,000 active users must federate with you to be a Lemmy starter instance.”

        This guarantees that new users will see the majority of content, and the starter instances won’t be embroiled in federation wars. The % value and pop numbers can change to reduce it down to a manageable number of starter instances.

      • Rikudou_Sage@lemmings.worldEnglish
        4·
        8 days ago

        That was just rules to make it work on the technical side - you’re not helping the user experience if you have to wait half a day until someone manually approves your registration.

        The rest would need to be discussed and actually thought out (and agreed upon with Lemmy devs, who own the join-lemmy domain).

        I haven’t given it much thought because I see no point if it never gets implemented.

      • Grimy@lemmy.worldEnglish
        21·
        8 days ago

        Cooking up global fediverse rules specifically meant to try and exclude an instance is crossing the line imo. If you don’t like interacting with them, join one of the many instances that have already blocked them.

        This kind of crusade goes against the spirit of the fediverse imo.

          • turtle [he/him]@lemm.eeEnglish
            3·
            8 days ago

            As long as it’s clearly labeled as something like “a communist instance”, why not? Some potential Lemmy users would probably feel right at home there. It doesn’t even have to be a controversial label, just a factual description that the Lemmygrad people would agree with.

            • Blaze (he/him) @lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
              4·
              8 days ago

              In that case I agree. The issue I see is people saying “just give new joiners a random instance across the top 20”, denying the unique culture of a few of them

              • turtle [he/him]@lemm.eeEnglish
                5·
                8 days ago

                Ah, yes, that makes sense now! If it is an automatic, random server selection, then I also agree that it should be only generic, non-controversial instances that are selected.

        • ArtificialHoldings@lemmy.worldEnglish
          3·
          8 days ago

          These aren’t global fediverse rules, they’re constraints meant to apply specifically to the new user experience on Lemmy only.

    • turtle [he/him]@lemm.eeEnglish
      2·
      8 days ago

      create some set of rules for “default instances” - every instance that wants to be in the list must follow them and will be periodically checked

      I don’t have any particular rules in mind, but some examples might include active moderation team, obviously registrations being open and if you really want to make it easy, either no application question or having it automatically approved by an automod of some kind

      The Mastodon Server Covenant is pretty much what you describe here, and could be used as a starting point: https://joinmastodon.org/covenant

  • hansolo@lemm.eeEnglish
    11·
    8 days ago

    Let’s all be clear, Reddit is part of the surveillance state.

    You can’t log in without Google and Apple trackers being allowed. New Reddit has recapcha trackers on every page. Only old.reddit doesn’t track what you see, just what you write.

    Your thoughts and content belong to a publicly traded company focused on profits if you use reddit.

  • commander@lemmings.worldEnglish
    113·
    7 days ago

    FWIW, I think the design and layout of lemmy is superb. Way better than reddit, old and new.

    You guys made a lot of good decisions.

  • letsgo@lemm.eeEnglish
    7·
    7 days ago

    “Which server do I join?” seems to be a sticking point for a lot of people.

    The “Browse servers” page does say at the top “You can access all content in the lemmyverse from any server, so it doesn’t matter which one you choose”, but on showing this page you immediately scroll that message off the screen. Maybe if you kept that bit visible it would help.

    Also I think comparing it with email servers might be helpful. People already know they can email anyone from any email server, and that signing up to, say, Posteo, doesn’t mean you can only email other Posteo users.

    • 0ops@lemm.eeEnglish
      4·
      7 days ago

      it doesn’t matter which one you choose

      That’s not really true though, every instance has it’s own rules, and it’s own federation policies, not to mention the other instances that don’t federate with it.

      I’m already on lemmy, so it’s not like I haven’t gone through this before, yet I still haven’t made a pixelfed account despite being interested because I don’t want to just go for the biggest instance and I have no idea how to vet the other ones.

      • electric_nan@lemmy.mlEnglish
        22·
        7 days ago

        I think it’s better to keep it simple for new users. Tell them it doesn’t matter which server since that is theoretically true in a general sense. No need to overwhelm them with all the asterisks. Once they start engaging, they’ll learn the nuances and can change instances.

  • Majorllama@lemmy.worldEnglish
    5·
    8 days ago

    As someone who is “stuck” here after being permabanned on all accounts on reddit I can say that the number one “issue” Lemmy has is also the greatest part about Lemmy. The fact that every instance can have its own copy of the “same” sub.

    I completely understand why someone coming from reddit is going to search up “ask” and they will see a few ask Lemmy subs coming up. At a glance they won’t know which one is “better” and why there are multiple.

    Sadly most people will turn around and leave at that point. The average internet user will just go somewhere else the moment they feel lost or confused by anything. The few that might stick through it and make a post asking why there are multiple instances of the same type of sub are likely to be spoken down to by a bunch of condescending nerds that feel superior to outsider idiots. I know that many of you are very kind and welcoming, but enough of the user base are elitist pricks about everything that new users will notice immediately.

    Lemmy can’t seem to decide if they want to grow or if they want to gate keep. I think the reality is that as more people are blanket banned from reddit without any reason such as myself that people will keep slowly trickling in.

    The only “change” I think Lemmy needs is its user feedback. I have been banned from so many subs for completely unrelated things and without going and looking up the mod logs for my own name I wouldnt have any clue whatsoever. I would just think that Lemmy was broken constantly since it just gives you submitting errors instead of telling you that you have been banned or anything.

    The “automod” messages are basically useless as they don’t tell you what rule you broke, which comment it was specifically or who actually initiated the ban. I know they aren’t always actually “automatic” bans because I have gotten messages from automod for comments I left weeks ago. So either they are the slowest and least attentive bots on planet earth or the mods of those subs are using the automod to hide behind as a layer of anonymity.

      • Majorllama@lemmy.worldEnglish
        2·
        8 days ago

        You make a good point. The key difference is that some instances block other instances (or at least that has been my understanding of how Lemmy works from my limited time here). So depending on where they sign up they might not even be able to access certain subs.

        Plus the “duplicate” subs on reddit tend to be one of two reasons. The original moderators let the sub die or enough people didn’t get along with how the original sub was being moderated and they left to make their own copy. It’s pretty rare that there are two identical subs that have equal engagement.

          • Majorllama@lemmy.worldEnglish
            1·
            8 days ago

            That still doesn’t address the fact that not all instances are created equal. And it’s not immediately apparent which instances block others.

          • CastorSulMush@lemmy.worldEnglish
            1·
            7 days ago

            This is what I’m seeing so far. It seems very hard to find very active communities for various topics. Movies should be an easy one with broad appeal but even the ones you posted here are not that active.

            And the seemingly most active one for television is called !showsandmovies@lemm.ee Why does it have movies in its name when the header is Shows and TV? Confusing and it’s not even that active.