To clarify : “strength of character”
Strength of character for men and women is the same. It is a basic trait of all human beings. Same with strength of purpose. However, how it gets expressed is different depending on the social and cultural situation they are in at the time.
That can relate to gender because some situations are gendered (for example, women are more likely to be in those situations).
In some movies, it is shown as muscles, aggressive etc. Eg Alien. In other movies it is shown in other ways.
Some examples:
The Color Purple
Three Billboards Outside Ebbing Missouri
Once Were Warriors
Fire by Deepa Mehta
Rabbit Proof Fence
Daughters of the Dust
Whale Rider
I’m not sure about that characterisation of Ripley in Alien. She doesn’t survive by fist-fighting the xenomorph, she’s not Arnie in Predator. She’s just determined and resourceful.
I agree with you, but I was thinking in terms of aggression and physicality, particularly in Alien 2 and 4. Similarly someone like Clarice Starling is smart and determined but physical prowess and aggresive assertiveness are a core part of her success.
I think Final Girls are probably what OP has in mind when they say determination in movies = physical strength.
This is a weird question… Aggressiveness is not a side effect of being buff.
I try to remember that not everyone on Lemmy is a westerner or an adult. OP might be from a culture thats still very patriarchal society and their only exposure to muscular women is Hollywood action movies. Angel Dust from Deadpool, Vasquez from Aliens, Rhonda Rousey in Expendables 3…
I was going for “strength of character” actually, speaking of limited. Thanks for clearing it up.
That’s a weird comment. I never said it was.
In movies a strong woman is manly. (big muscles, aggressive, punches people, etc.) Is that really the way it is?
I’m confused, maybe you could try rewording your question?
Ahh, I see the issue now. Elsewhere in the thread it was pointed out.
I meant “strong character”. Big willpower. Driven. Uncompromising. That kind of thing.
Not powerlifter.
Big willpower. Driven. Uncompromising. That kind of thing.
I think that is the answer. :)
I’m trying to think of examples from famous recent movies with women who have that description…
From Disney:
- Moana from Moana
- Joy from Inside Out
- Anna and Elsa from Frozen and the sequel
- Mirabel from Encanto
Have you seen any of those movies? If not, what movies have you seen?
I think we’re moving away from the emotionally strong woman being buff/masculine theme but originally I assume this theme was misogynistic in origin “this woman is so strong she can make it on her own - she doesn’t even need a man… and since we assume a man being present is necessary for survival it’s not that she doesn’t need a man - it’s that she’s her own man! There now we have a strong female character without eroding our own preconceived gender hierarchy. Technically a woman can survive on her own - as long as she’s a man!”
Honestly, you’ll get this read off a lot of early female villains and in trashy movies they’ll queer code her because obviously the female villain (who is functionally a man writing-wise) needs a wife of her own.
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See elsewhere in the thread for clarification.
I don’t think aggression and punching people are manly traits but ok. And I quite like muscular women, it’s damn hot.
This is a very vague and open-ended question. Keep thinking on it and ask a more specific question to get better answers.
Masculine is the word you’re looking for. It’s all the same, really, just less precise. Out of biological necessity, women and men evolved different ways of handling situations. There will never be a stereotype or trait that applies to every individual of a large group, but if I ask you which is more likely to get into a bar fight, it’s clear the scale tips in one direction or the other.
But regarding the movie question, no. It’s cheap to make a woman physically beefy to give the idea that she’s strong. There are many examples where the woman hero character is not beefy strongwoman. Movies where sword skill or martial arts are employed. There are characters of women who are strong because of their intelligence, always being one step ahead. Women characters who use their cunning wit and charm to con people. Women characters who use their compassion and stoic nature to unite opposing groups to fight a larger enemy.
You see big = strong more often because it’s an easy trope. You wouldn’t expect to see a movie with some lanky spaghetti armed guy kicking ass all day. At most he’d usually be the hacker sidekick for comedic effect.
The discussion around gender stereotypes, no matter how accurate, will always be a landmine, so be warned.
Yes yes.
On a tangential note, I just had a post removed from nostupidquestions. My post about the degradation of knowledge.
Apparently lemmy mods have recently been given the power of shadow-removal (the power to temove while keeping you in the dark about the fact), which is nice.
When everybody you talk to is dumb as a rock. When the people in charge have the integrity of jello. What then? Is it worthwhile sifting cesspools for specks of intelligent conversation then?
It’s not a now thing. The masses have always been collectively dumb. There are some individuals who are intelligent, and they tend to form groups or colleges so they can be around similarly minded individuals.
Lemmy is not a good place for nuanced or intelligent discussion. Neither is reddit. For that, I suggest seeking out a philosophy forum, but then you’ll likely feel like you’re the common idiot… speaking from experience.
You are conflating strength of character with masculinity? Why?
The answer to your question is no. Women are people, men are people. I think to some extent maybe physical fitness in anyone (anyone able -bodied) correlates with persistence and impulse control, but physical and verbal aggression correlates with a lack of impulse control and lack of empathy. So negative association with strength of character, in anyone male or female or other.
And Ripley. Tall. Squarejawed. Ripped. Kicks ass constantly. Can drive a big robot loader thingy, to the impressment of the alpha dudes.
Can you think of any examples of movie portrayal of strong women that did not involve turning into a man?
Surely it exists.
Yeeeah, adding my voice to the “WTF you on about” choir, but since this is a fun exercise anyway: -10 Cloverfield Lane -The African Queen -The Apartment -As Good As It Gets -Bumblebee -Coraline -Dune -Fargo -Interstellar
Yeah, ok, look, I’m just looking at my DVD shelf and getting more confused about WTH you’re talking about every couple of entries. This is a very weird hot take.
a woman can be physically strong without “turning into a man”.
strength of character? how about “nomadland” or “meek’s cutoff”?
I have not seen either of those.
But you see what I mean, right? A strong female character invariably starts looking like a man. Which is, of course, a cheap shortcut on the part of the writer.
What are feminine expressions of strength?
She doesn’t look manly at all. What are you talking about?
It’s like they took arnold schwartzenegger’s jaw and transplanted it onto a supermodel/kickboxer.
musculature is not solely masculine, but if that’s the association for you, it makes sense that you feel a woman with muscles “starts looking like a man”. a similar circular reasoning would be arrived at if you simply considered strength itself to be a masculine trait.
What is considered masculine or feminine is largely a cultural thing. It was once manly to wear skirts (kilts) and dresses (robes) and knit and sew, some places it still is.
A strong person (character trait) is someone who is willing to stand their ground for what they believe is right despite overwhelming pressure, be willing to admit it when they are wrong and flexible enough to adapt when the situation changes.
Sometimes that means you must fight and kill, but talking and listening (often seen as feminine or weak) usually gives better results.
Edit: At some point in my life I will learn to spell things correctly!!!
Talking and listening. “Sensitivity”. “Receptivity”. Those could be called feminine strengths.
Eh, only because society emphasizes them when raising women, just as aggressiveness is emphasized for men. In both cases it is trained for the most part.
There is always natural inclination, but that is often overridden by how you are raised and the experiences you have throughout your life.
Ah, nature vs nurture. I’m with nature here.
Serious answer: No, its a casting choice.
What you will see in the real world is that muscular women who arent on PEDs will be confident and likely not introverts because unless your taking testosterone, steroids or other hormone altering treatments it takes a LOT of work for a woman to look muscular and unless they are training at home are generally working out in a very male dominant environment where not taking shit off others is the norm. Shy and demure girls dont tend to gravitate to weight lifting.
Thanks for the serious answer.
Now that I have your serious attention.
What characterizes feminine strength?
I’m assuming that it’s different from masculine strength.
Consider the movie “Legally Blonde”.
Is that in the vicinity?
Are we allowed to downvote stupid questions in this community, or is it like the unpopularopinion one?
Your bar on what constitutes stupid might be … stupid.
As it should be
