Is it real antisemitism or just not supporting Israel?
About when they start going on about “Zionists” Is where I draw the line and where it typically takes a turn.
As a Jewish person, I find it healthy to criticize the Israeli government. Most young Israelis do. Their government has been steamrolled by a wannabe dictator that is corrupt as hell and his team of racist, backwards conservative orthodox buddies.
They were just protesting in the streets weeks ago and now we’re expected to turn around and support the government? Nah. This doesn’t change anything.
The problem is a lot of people don’t differentiate between the israeli government and the israeli people as a whole - i’ve seen some straight up ‘they had it coming’ style bullshit that is verrry careful to place Good Jews and Bad Jews (the festival goers) to try and get a pass on antisemitsm and maaaan it is transparent as fuck.
But that’s how politics work nowadays. You need to assume that every group is homogenous and when someone from that group points out that it isn’t, you call them a hypocrite.
What are you talking about? I know Jewish people that openly condemn the behavior of their gov. A person is good or bad depending on their actions - you cannot lump everyone together based on whatever characteristics you want and after that starting a genocide campaign.
The festival goes were just normal people like you and me that were trying to live and enjoy life. Same with the innocent people that are dying in Gaza.
I’m talking about commentary i’ve seen. People very careful to say ‘i’m not an antisemite buuuuuuut’
Yeah. Sure.
Yeah no. These two should be disconnected.
dude if you go “I’m not an antisemite but those festival goers absolutely had it coming” then you are at the very least an utter cunt.
You cannot separate Zionism from the formation of the state of Israel and how the history of the conflict has been shaped since.
In order to obtain a more holistic perspective of the conflict people need to know about Zionism, it’s history, and how it currently affects Israeli leadership.
There are still people alive on both sides that lived through Zionist conflicts with the British Mandate and the Nakba.
Is it real antisemitism or just not supporting Israel?
Nothing lemmy.world loves more than bagging on the *.ml instance, so I’m going to take a wild guess at the latter. If it was self-referential “Me looking at all the antisemitism on lemmy.world” it never would have received this much positive attention.
People should really stop conflating anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. Unfortunately it’s very common and even part of the official classifications used by some countries. To me it seems obvious that this is another attempt to cut off any criticism of the state of Israel by labeling critics as anti-Semitic. Here’s an interesting read about how flawed that logic is:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/mar/07/debunking-myth-that-anti-zionism-is-antisemitic
I must admit, it’s quite refreshing to hear a critical take on the Israeli government from a Jewish person. I don’t know if it’s due to the news sources and forums I typically frequent (e.g. BBC, Guardian, etc), but I feel like it’s quite rare to hear an opinion from someone who actually lives there or who practices the religion.
It’s also quite reassuring (as a fairly ignorant outside observer who is only beginning to learn the tiniest bit about the complex and bloody history of this region) to hear that not every Jewish person or every Israeli likes the way that the state is developing.
Edit: I made some language changes because upon re-reading the parent comment I realised that the poster didn’t actually say whether they lived in Israel or not and I had made a faulty assumption.
Could you elaborate on the “zionist” thing? I haven’t really followed the Israel situation (I tried, but it’s just so complicated). What I heard, is that “zionist” is used when talking about the Israel activity in “taking” territory from the surrounding area, is that correct or did I just misunderstand? If I’m not wrong, then what happens when people start going on about it?
The idea that discussing Zionism is a sign of an anti-semite is a shit take. The Zionist movement worked very hard to establish a colony in the middle east, in an area where they knew there were already natives and those natives were hostile to being colonized. It’s impossible to truly study the founding of Israel without learning about the Zionist movement.
This isn’t about religion, or even very much about race. It’s about the powerful asserting their will over the powerless. To some extent you could argue that the Zionists were used by the British to screw over the Arabs, but that doesn’t make the Zionists innocent.
Equating discussions of Zionism with anti-Semitism is part of the Israeli propaganda playbook for dismissing all criticism of Israel’s founding.
I also disagree with many things the Israeli government does. But when people ignore the complete history of Israel and exclusively ventilate the pro-Palestinian propaganda, a red line is crossed for me.
The complete history of Israel forcing Palestinians into ghettos and systematically slaughtering them? The fact that they told civilians to flee to the south and then bombed the very area they claimed would be safe? The fact that they claim the right to self determination but refuse to allow the Palestinians the same right? The fact that netanyahu funded Hamas to destabilize the region so that he’d have pretense to carry out his war crimes?
I don’t condone the attacks by Hamas, but to pretend that Israel isn’t trying to carry out a genocide is crossing a red line for me.
This whole conflict has just always felt like a massive grey area as an outsider. Both sides have done horrible things over the years, with the retaliation often being even worse. Most governments (including mine) are actually supporting both sides, for example through humanitarian aid. That’s just kind of weird when you think about it, in a way they’re enabling both sides to keep going. And I just don’t know if there’s any way out of this besides one side completely destroying the other. Peace talks have been had so many times and it just doesn’t lead anywhere. It just feels inevitable.
There is no argument for “both sides bad” when one side is currently right now this instant blowing up hospitals, schools, and children. One side is objectively worse and it’s the side hiding behind the skirts of “antisemitism” as they carry out an Arabic genocide
I disagree.
Both sides are bad, no matter who is currently the aggressor.
Now because there is aggression, the aggressor has an obligation to stop it, and we have an obligation to force a stop in the conflict as well. But that doesn’t make the other party less Bad in this. Both sides killed a lot of innocent people, both have inhumane ulterior motives and both are supporting further escalation. But ofc if there’s only one party doing the fighting, then that’s the party that acutely needs to be stopped.
This distinction is very important to me, because you are not suddenly the good guy because you stopped killing civilians. You are just not actively doing war crimes which means we don’t have to intervene because of you anymore, which is at least one less reason. But you are not holy because “this year it was only 300 war crimes”.
“Both have inhuman ulterior motives”
Palestine wants to be free
Israel wants to genocide Palestine and live in their homes
Yes I can see how wanting liberty and self governance is exactly the same as wanting more land for your historically landless people regardless of how many natives you have to kill. Completely balanced
Israelis and people of Jewish faith are fine and nice people. Netanyahu’s government is a monster with genocidal ideas. Some people go along with these terrible ideas.
Palestinians and people of Muslim faith are fine and nice people. Hamas leadership are monsters with genocidal ideas. Some people go along with these terrible ideas.
Israelis and people of Jewish faith are fine and nice people.
The current state of the Israeli government and the intense fascist impulse driving its leaders to genocide would suggest “the average (enfranchised) Israeli” is maybe not as fine or as nice as we’d like to believe.
Engaging with any kind of online community of Israelis feels like I’m stepping into a Der Sturmer article, what with all the intense hate and vitriol aimed at virtually any non-Israeli.
Hamas leadership are monsters
Who, specifically, in Hamas leadership is a monster? Name some names. Is it the head of UNWRA? The chief physician at the Al-Shifa Hospital? The press editor at Al Jaazera magazine? The folks working at the World Central Kitchen?
Because I’ve heard all of these organizations are hosting Hamas leadership. I’ve yet to hear anything else about them that explains why they deserved to die, other than that they’re “Hamas Leadership” and “Hamas Leadership are monsters”.
This is probably the only time I will agree with the “both sides” take on this. My view on this is that it doesn’t mean I agree with killing innocents though. People at the top doing terrible things is no reason to condemn a whole people who very likely had little say in the matter.
If there’s one issue, ever, that you should be at least a little “both sides” on, it’s this one.
There’s no way you can honestly argue only one side of this.
I’m a Jew and pretty sensitive to antisemitism, even dogwhistles. I admit I don’t go to lemmy.ml very often, but from what I’ve seen from lemmy.ml posters posting on lemmy.world, there’s been no antisemitism at all. In fact, I have not seen any antisemitism from anyone here that I can recall, which is pretty amazing in and of itself.
Opposition to Israel’s genocidal regime is not antisemitism.
Yeah. I am really sick of seeing the argument that any condemnation of the government of Israel is anti-Semitic. It has nothing to do with them being Jewish and everything to do with how they have handled that conflict over the years.
If this had been Reddit, I’d have bought credits to award you a gold star.
Hold on a second…
Out of the loop, what do dogwhistles mean regarding antisemitism?
Saying things that aren’t explicitly antisemitic but are basically hidden code for antisemitism. Such as “Globalists.”
Why is that called a dog whistle?
Go actually look at the .ml worldnews community. There is full mask off “death to Israel” shit all over the place.
“Death to Israel” is also not antisemitic. Jews are not Israelis and Israelis are not Jews. I am not an Israeli. I have no ties or allegiances to Israel, nor do I want them. I think “death to Israel” is an extremist viewpoint, but not an antisemitic one.
Depends on who’s saying it, but not necessarily an anti-semitic phrase, sure.
When shouted by some dude at a campus protest in a nation two thousand miles away, probably not.
However, when Hamas or the Houthis say it, it definitely is.
Is it anti-Semitic when a Semite calls for the killing of a different group of Semites?
1: Kind of like saying there can’t be white on white racism.
2: Only nerds know that Palestinians and Arabs in general are also Semitic.
It does rather point out how stupid all this irredentism is though. These are ultimately all descendants of the same peoples, killing each other over the same God.
Israel is a state
Judaism is a religionIf one disagrees or opposes one, they don’t oppose the other. I know that Israel has managed to spin the narrative that Israel and Judaism are the same and everyone opposing the state is basically the same kind of hateful asshole Adolf was, but that’s just not true. We here in Germany have struggled a long time with that for obvious reasons. You couldn’t call out Israel for doing wrong shit without being called a Nazi. In that past that is. What you’ve seen isn’t “Antisemitism”. It’s opposition to some of the bullshit Israel is pulling that is the very same kind of bullshit Jews have been subjected to in the past. Or tell me: What’s the difference between a Ghetto in 1700s Germany and the Gaza Strip? Correct, the 1700s Ghetto had less travel restrictions.
There is a great push in Israel to be proud of the history of unjust oppression and prosecution Jews have suffered for centuries and how awful being a victim of that was. There is this sense that together, as a nation, they finally have the means to safeguard themselves against shit like that. Yet, that very same nation pulls a swift 180 when it comes to palestinians. Pushing them back into Ghettos, depriving them of any form of economical way out, depriving them of means to get their own electricity, their own water. Paying them pittances for their jobs, restricting travel for them whenever possible. Now, as soon as those people act hostile (go figure), the “state of the oppressed” Israel responds with the military. “A little bombardment will keep them in check, right? How dare they hate us?!”
If the message all the Shoa museums, all the graveyards for the people killed in atrocities was really understood, neither the “West Bank” nor the “Gaza Strip” could exist without Israelites acting up against them.
Rant over.
So you say that you oppose Israel’s existence itself - the existence as a state, but do not hate Jews in particular, right?
Do you support the existence of an apartheid state? Yes or no answer only.
Try your derailing somewhere else.
Username checks out.
Antisemitism ≠ antizionism, lemmy.ml (speaking from experience) has waaaaay harsher and stricter moderation that something like ee or world, they straight up hard-remove words from comments, an antisemite would be banned on sight.
Unless they painted their antisemitism in a thin veneer of
fetishizingsupporting PalestiniansMost Palestinians are semites as well.
Why is everyone in the comments section oversimplifying this complex issue? Great reminder that that’s what politics is now, blaming one side and naming the other side pure.
What is your definition of anti-Semitism?
People who like to put the milk in with the teabag before the hot water
Lemmy.world go 30 minutes without making things up about other instances challenge.
Difficulty: impossible.
Whiniest instance by far. I get the hate for hexbear and grad, but ml is normal
Anti Zionism ≠ Anti Semitism.
Some people wants every body human rights to be respected, and dennounce crimes against humanity that Israel and Hamas commits, one being an alleged country and the other a terrorist organization.
The right for self determination of Palestinians (and to live) is not being respected by Israel, so, with confidence I will say Free Palestine!
Zionism became a thing when antisemitism was really bad.
Israel became a thing when antisemitism went over itself and even casual antisemites looked in horror at what Nazis had done.
The Palestinian problem today is nested within centuries of the problem of antisemitism, coiling around and biting itself in the tail.
