I’m mainly talking about these new “but they’re different” games, that have gotten so fucking popular, lately.
“Honky Stair Rail” and “Genshin Implants” or whatever the fuck they’re called.
I don’t care if you can play them without spending any money. I don’t care if they’re any good. None of that matters. The whole model of the game being funded by whales, spending money on in-game items and currency IS LITERALLY EVIL.
There is no way to do it ethically. That is an impossibility, on a fundamental level. There is no excuse for anyone to give these so-called developers and publishers ANY amount of money, attention, or engagement.
The only acceptable way to pay for a game as a service is a traditional MMO subscription, where you pay a flat rate per month/year to access 100 percent of a game’s available gameplay.
I don’t care what your excuse is. I don’t care that you like anime tits and ass. I don’t care if you think your chosen free-to-pay game is different. It’s not.
Stop supporting this shit. Support real games.
A couple of years ago, I would have considered this to be a popular opinion, but about 35-40 percent of the internet posts I see in 2024 are related to either “Honky Stair Rail” or “Genshin Implants,” and it’s starting to freak me the fuck out.
I’m not sure that this is an unpopular opinion either. Not in the states at least.
All my homies hate pay to win - it’s antithetical to what gaming was about. Just the same as paid kits and scripts for hackers used to be called skids. It was about classless community on the internet period.
Fuck greed.
Like I said to someone else, this wouldn’t have been an unpopular opinion, just a couple of years ago.
But look at the front page of Reddit, without being logged in. It’s just POST AFTER POST AFTER POST AFTER POST about “Honky Stair Rail” and “Genshit Implants.”
Those two “games” are singlehandedly (double handedly? double-D anime-tittedly?) rehabilitating and normalizing the image of the free-to-pay genre.
But look at the front page of Reddit,
Well, there is your first mistake, thinking Reddit is organic.
Hmm. I guess that’s a really fair point. I hope it’s a LOT of corporate tail-wagging-the-dog shit, then.
What about people that pre order games? Or people that buy each version of Madden or Fifa? Or people that buy games regardless of rootkits like Denuvo? Are you going to call them all evil for supporting companies with dubious practices? For daring to buy games they like? You don’t get to tell people what they should do with their money or time to be “moral”. In fact, I could just as well argue that to spend any money whatsoever on computer games is evil while there are people starving out there.
What about people that pre order games? Or people that buy each version of Madden or Fifa? Or people that buy games regardless of rootkits like Denuvo? Are you going to call them all evil for supporting companies with dubious practices? For daring to buy games they like?
I have no problem with any of that. You’re putting words in my mouth. I actually think pre-ordering has a really good place in the activist buyer toolkit. Pre-order from companies who haven’t burned you. Stop pre-ordering if they do burn you. It’s a means of incentivizing good behavior. Make companies acutely aware that they have reputations that are either constantly at risk or needing to be mended, and there are always economic consequences for how they maintain those reputations.
Like someone pointed out, the problem with the mobile-style business model is that the developers are forced to put roadblocks in front of your progress through the game and/or invalidate that progress. That’s where I draw the line. When the basic gameplay loop is based around the default setting of “it takes forever to do everything,” and you can buy your way out of that, as long as you keep pumping money into the game…well, that’s not okay.
There can’t be any kind of good or acceptable way to run that model. It’s outrageously harmful. And those “let’s milk the players for a little more, every day” practices have become normalized to the point that they are showing up in games that supposedly aren’t mobile-style pay-for-everything games. Like, look at some racing games, these days. They used to just have all the cars unlocked when you started the game, or maybe you’d unlock them as you progressed through the campaign mode.
But now, there are plenty of racing games where LOTS of the cars are just locked behind microtransaction paywalls. I don’t think I’m out of line for suggesting that we should try and stop this shit, before it gets worse. Remember: at least one game company exec has proposed a future where we have to buy in-game ammunition with real money. Not in mobile-style games. Not in free-to-download games. In real, full-price games.
My issue isn’t really with your argument, though I personally find pre-ordering to be as bad as this pay to win crap. (But I don’t feel passionately enough about that point to debate it - I concede that an activist buyer could leverage that)
However, I do have issue with you calling people who spend money on micro transactions evil. Or immoral. I find that sentiment to be ridiculous and trivialising actual evil behaviour.
I know about the story where some idiot executive suggested paying a dollar to reload or something stupid like that. If you called the companies evil, or the executives… you know what… I might support that allegation. But the players? The customers?
I think I get why you are saying this - you believe the players enable/allow the companies to do this, thereby supporting their evil ways. I just don’t agree that buying a product (especially an entertainment product) from such a company is necessarily (and to use your word: literally) evil.
Say I agree that these players are evil. Should I now stop being friends with people once I learn they play Genshin? Should I shun them? Tell my sister I can no longer visit them because she allows her kids to play Genshin and Fortnite?
What about people paying subscriptions to streaming services that produce crap content? Or people that followed reality tv to the extent that it allowed the Kardashians to exist?
So apologies for this long reply, I guess my only real point is that while I agree with you that the behaviour of these (mobile game) companies is deplorable (to me), if people willingly spend their money on it, that is none of my business. I can vote with my wallet by buying games from studios I like.
Just like I dislike gambling and casinos, I would never call people that frequent those establishments immoral or evil.
I think there’s a fundamental misunderstanding, here. I didn’t ever intend to call the customers I disagreed with evil. Maybe I technically said that, at some point. Maybe without intending it, at all.
That’s not what I’m intending to say. I am intending to vehemently state that mobile-style game monetization models are evil. Furthermore, they represent an existential threat to the entire gaming hobby.
There are possible futures where this shit snowballs into another gaming industry crash, like the one back in '83. And this one would be even more preventable. We’re drowning in excellent technology, which has the potential to bring gaming to more people than ever. But that tech is being misused and abused, and so are the players.
So that argument I can support. However, while I do share your dismay with things as things stand, I am somewhat more optimistic. For instance, it is my belief that recent successes from BG3 and Eldenring for instance has shown companies that a significant market still exists for … let’s call it … traditional games where the model is simply you pay money for a complete game that is great.
Now this obviously works for single player games but even there we see the encroachment you refer to. For instance there was some controversy on Dragons Dogma 2 for instance. (Fortunately turns out most of those items can be acquired in game but the micro transactions presence still irritates me).
Personally I think a bigger threat to the industry is exemplified by Bethesda. Starfield was a pathetic game in my opinion. Lazy writing. Bad tech. Overpriced junk. And I believe that the advancement in AI is going to make it 10 times worse - bland AI written plots and NPCs… AI generated textures and models.
Maybe I shouldn’t say threat to the industry. More a threat to the part of the industry I care most about, which is single player RPGs.
So I guess my question would now be… why do you believe that the crappy monetisation practices of these mobile gaming pay to win companies would bring the industry as a whole down?
Would people not just move to the next game? And is this not something we already see with the success of say Eldenring/BG3?
why do you believe that the crappy monetisation practices of these mobile gaming pay to win companies would bring the industry as a whole down?
Well, let’s look at Starfield. I don’t hate it nearly as much as you do, but I definitely agree it has flaws. But now imagine that some of these hyper-monetization practices had invaded it, on top of the other problems. Like, if you had to do some horrible grind to get fuel for your ship, unleeeesssssss you wanted to pay for some Bethesda Bux, to make that process go faster.
And now imagine almost every other single player RPG game has similar shit, crammed into it. Say anything you want about Todd Howard, I do think he would fight tooth and nail to prevent such a thing. And so would every other traditional RPG developer. But they don’t really own their companies, anymore. They’ve all had to sell out to bigger entities, to keep putting food on the tables of their employees. And even the ones who remain independent aren’t entirely above the pressures of the publishers.
So imagine that they can’t hold the flood back anymore, and the mobile-style ultra-monetization shit gets into all the RPG games, even more into every online FPS game, into all the single player FPSes and Boomer Shooters, even somehow into sidescrolling platformers and Metroidvanias. And adventure games. And every other genre you can think of.
If all the major releases become completely overburdened with this shit, people might just decide “welp, I’m out. I’m leaving the hobby.”
That could cause a crash. Hopefully, true indie games could pull us out of the spiral, but I’m not sure of that. Especially in a scenario like I’m talking about. If there was a real exodus of millions of players, away from gaming, the industry would have to contract massively. Then all those devs who are currently employed by major studios would found a bunch of little indie studios. Some people would applaud that as an unalloyed benefit, but they would all be competing for a much smaller pool of money, and maybe none of them would be able to remain solvent.
So, again, you get the potential for a devastating crash.
Ok. So if I understand your argument correctly you are saying that the financial success of Genshin et al would prompt other publishers to force the studios they own to implement these monetisation strategies.
And this leads to players like you and me leaving the hobby. (Not that I know what else I would do… but anyways) But who knows… maybe people growing up with this sort of thing is fine with it… which might not then crash the industry but just leaves us with shitty games.
Maybe we are in the minority. Maybe millions won’t leave it and it is just you and me taking up stamp collecting or something.
Other than CDPR… I wouldn’t be very upset if a crash in the industry causes some AAA studios to cease to be. The scenario you sketched with more indie studios rising sounds kinda nice actually.
Nature dislikes a vacuum. If the industry crashes because of overzealous monetisation practices I am sure studios with somewhat more competent executives (like say Larian) would jump on the chance to produce content players want.
Then again… it is not like the rise of reality tv lead to the sudden generation of lots of great tv shows from indie studios. So I guess you have a point.
I helped to destroy gaming by having kids. According to my game launcher, the last time I played a PC game I paid for was 3 years ago, and the game was published in 2011. So, having helped to destroy gaming already, I don’t give a flying fuck what people think of me for playing Crossmath on my phone while taking a dump, during the only opportunity when I’m not being disturbed.
I just looked up Crossmath. That’s an actual mobile game, the way mobile games are supposed to be.
You’re not spending your kids’ college fund on gacha pulls, trying to unlock a sexy outfit for the number 18.
So yeah, you carry on. You’re fine.
My guy, you are the antithesis of your own username. If you wanna change minds you need to change your angle. Facts. Data. Not just “I’m right and you’re wrong, no I will not explain further.” All that’s gonna do is make people cling to their beliefs even stronger. So really, you’re making the problem worse without playing the games yourself. Congratulations.
I feel like this guy must have some mental health issues or a disorder, and they either haven’t been diagnosed or they aren’t being treated properly. He doesn’t seem like a troll because he’s putting way too much effort into it, but his behaviour’s way too strange for a mentally stable, neurotypical person.
You’re absolutely right. This screams autism to me as a ND person myself.
That was my initial thought as well. I’m not sure about my own neurotypicality since I haven’t started the process of diagnosis yet, but my partner has autism and I couldn’t help but see some similarities between her past behaviour and this guy’s current behaviour. I can only hope he gets the help he needs, if he does indeed need it.
You might want to not play them then.🙃
You might want to not play them then
Not good enough, in this case. The fact that other people are playing them IS helping to destroy the portion of the gaming industry that I do enjoy.
This is a fact. It is not up for debate.
As you claim… in a community dedicated to debates 🙃.
Debates? Nah. Opinions.
There are exactly two words in the title of this community: “unpopular” and “opinion.”
Are you seeing the word “debate” in there, somewhere?
I mean, sure, I might debate in this community, if I feel like it. But right now, I don’t. And that’s absolutely fine.
The fuck is your problem dude?
I agree. It is creating a real problem.
Out of curiosity would you include Guild Wars 2 into a good or bad system?
You pay for the game. You get the full game. When they bring out a expansion you pay for the expansion.
You can buy in game stuff but it’s cosmetic only (different skins for armor or weapons but no improved stats). You don’t need to buy anything. You can pay the full game. Just curious what your thoughts are on that type of game.
I have to admit that some of the pseudo-traditional MMO games actually do fall into a gray area. Especially if they’re part of a series that used to run on a fully traditional MMO model, but couldn’t be sustained any longer. It’s better for those specific games to be supported in a different way, rather than just die off.
It’s these “hey sailor, buy some currency…and/or a .png of an anime titty girl that you can use to fight other .png files of anime titty girls UNLESS YOU WANT TO GRIND FOREVER” abominations that are becoming normalized. And that’s just not cool.
EDIT: it’s especially not cool, because I see more and more traditional gamers who DEFINITELY KNOW BETTER deciding that “Honky Stair Rail” or “Genshin Implants” are somehow different and okay. Even though they really do know better than that.
As someone with an addictive personality, gw2 is just as bad as any other.
The existence of FOMO, the “gems” that are never sold in quantities to get the full value of your transaction, and the random loot boxes for mounts and fucking dyes of all things… Makes no difference if it’s “just cosmetic”. It’s an exploitative business model for people vulnerable to those techniques. It’s scummy as all hell. OP is right, there’s no ethical GAAS.
And the game definitely suffers for the simple fact that the gemstore takes priority over it.
Gaas?
I assume it’s Gaming As A Service.
I assume because SAAS is software as a service.
Is this an unpopular opinion?
As I said in the body of my post, it WAS a popular opinion. Not anymore. Much to my dismay.
It’s just a Netflix for games. Many people who don’t really want to invest time (or so they think) are a new market that opened since games stopped to be a nerds’ shit. And it doesn’t end with the game itself: many play Fortnite or Genshin for social communications about it, it’s fandom and peer pressure. You could’ve seen that with the last episodes of Lost that were making news and got discussed everywhere, you see it now. And no wonder it’s then gets more publicity, because that’s what average person consumes.
Obviously, there’s a big red flag of capitalism perfecting it’s hooks, now in the mainstream. But there’s still a market for more engaging games. Souls-likes could’ve been dead in the water if TRU GAMIN has vanished, BG3 sales show that AAA can thrive, Dead Stranding kinda plays with that visible lack of gameplay while adding Kojima’s shenanigans, Devolver Digital still greenlits cool projects without bullshit. And games that try to marry classic IPs with some form of gacha\gambling fail like Diablo: Immortal or Owerwatch 2, because most CEOs are fortunately incappable of understanding their shit.
I feel like your general message of not supporting these practices is kind of misguided because the crowds who play Genshin\PUBG\whatever doesn’t often intersect with those who play non-casual games, and they probably aren’t represented on Lemmy that much.
Nooooooope to everything you just said. You’re simply wrong in every aspect of every word of this response.
STOP. APOLOGIZING. FOR. EVIL.
Would you say anything of a substance?
Nope. I’m the correct one. When you’re right and the other person is wrong, you really don’t have to say anything. :)
If that somehow bothers you, I would suggest that you stop being wrong.
If you are a troll, you are supposed to raise the flame, not fart it off.
If I were to discuss why I am being prickly toward you, I would probably get banned.
On a completely unrelated, totally coincidental note, my favorite colors are blue and yellow. :)
Я специально набрал свой ник кириллицей, на русском, чтобы другие сами выбирали, хотят ли они со мной взаимодействовать или нет, и знали мой бэкграунд перед тем как отвечать, это честно и справедливо. То, что ты разводишь по этому поводу, иррелевантно к обсуждаемой теме, и звучит по-детски. ‘I would probably get banned…’ - ну так не пиши, если боишься, откуда такая слабость? Зачем ты изображаешь жертву? Трусов никто не любит. А ты трус, и пытаешься надавить на это.
Мои любимые цвета это красный и чёрный, по диагонали, и за них я также полечу как за жовтоблакитный флаг, который мне тоже не противен, но поддерживать их - дело украинцев, не моё. Впргаться за них, думать за них - это, бля, с чего начался весь современный кипешь, они это должны делать сами. Им моя помощь не нужна, и весь цимес текущей бойни об их самостоятельности, что ты мог не заметить, ебясь в глаза.
Ты же показал себя глупцом. Не только притянул сюда иррелевантную тему, но и был дураком, делая это.
Would you print anything of substance or I can report you?
I think it’s weird that you would report me for talking about my favorite colors.
Also, maybe your response loses something in the translation, but I don’t see any substance. I see equivocation. You could declare your support for all free people to determine their own independence, but you fall back on the tired “oh, but all conflict is bad” angle.
Disappointing, even in the context of an internet argument.
If I were to discuss why I am being prickly toward you, I would probably get banned.
That right there should probably indicate to you that your position might not be the right one.
Ahhh, I see that your favorite colors are NOT blue and yellow.
I guess I also have problem with you, then.
What are your thoughts on the high seas?
When the purveyors of ocean services act like scurvy dogs, ye surely cannot be blamed for hoisting yer own flag, on the high seas.
I don’t think it’s possible to pirate live-service games.
Me enjoying Shattered PixelDungeon:
This thread is so fascinating. I agree with the OP 100% and it’s so strange to me to see the arguments against them.
Like, games as designed now are predatory. My kids get a game and are bombarded with shiny ways to extract more money.
OP’s point on MMOs is that they provide servers and that means a monthly subscription and the only way (originally) to get stuff was to grind.
To expand on that last point, the original MMO grind was also supposed to be fun and interesting, in and of itself. It wasn’t everyone’s cup of tea, but the original grind wasn’t a roadblock in the way of progress. It WAS the progress.
As someone else very eloquently pointed out, the problem with the new mobile-style model is that “the developers ARE REQUIRED TO INVALIDATE your progress in some way.”
That’s exactly the center of the point that I’m making. That shit isn’t fixable. There is no way for there to be a good or acceptable game that uses that model.
And I think that’s why I’ve bristled so much, when people are like “uhh, coule you cite some examples?”
Like I said in that other comment: that’s like if I said “being hit in the hand with a sledgehammer causes injury” and people were like “hmmm, could you supply some evidence for this claim?”
Saying “fuck off” to that request isn’t ME being intellectually dishonest. It’s THEM being trollish for even asking some shit like that. It’s some Elon Musk level shit.
Mobile-style free-to-pay monetization models are simply harmful. Period. Exactly like a sledgehammer to the knuckles.
Some people might be legit masochists and like being whacked on the hands with hammers, but that doesn’t change the basic facts.
OP spent their wages on Genshin and is pissed.
Dude you’re like a decade late and in the wrong economic system. This is just capitalism at work. There is no ethical consumption here, and pretty much everyone stuck with it either doesn’t realize it or they’ve accepted it and moved on. Gaming is just a drop in the bucket - look at everything we buy. Everything is a subscription. You own nothing, its all licensed. Every business is implementing predatory anti consumer practices. All tech has planned obsolescence built in. Its all designed so we cant repair it, and need to buy the new thing. Every service is full of extra fees for services that should have been included. Fuck, go buy a car with heated seats and even that is a subscription now. It’s everywhere, and we’re too late.
Giving up and accepting things as they are: it’s the new, cool, VERY EASY form of activism!
So what’s your plan then? Shouting about it doesn’t do much, people have been bitching about this since the 80’s, probably longer.
This. There are too many blind sheeple in the world. I have lost all hope.
Well, I’m raising awareness that it’s a more acute problem than some people might have realized.
Some people in this thread have already made it clear that they didn’t realize how far this new breed of " better than the other anime gacha apps" games have penetrated, into the market.
Your proposed solution is to <checks your post> gleefully do literally nothing.
So, ya know, I’m still doing better than you. Seethe and cope with that.
Seethe? If I sound angry you’ve misinterpreted my tone. This is more like apathetic resignation in the face of some facts. You’re informing a niche audience while the majority of consumers supporting the thing you’re against aren’t here and couldn’t give a fuck. If you actually intend to put a stop to this you’re gonna need a bigger more motivated audience.
Its like the naivety I would see on reddit when they would slap “dont preorder” posts everywhere. It doesn’t do shit in an echo chamber, the people doing most of the preordering weren’t actively visiting gaming subreddits.
You like to make a lot of assumptions too. I’m actually with you in a sense - I’ve never paid for an MTX in any game, ever. Cell phone games I’ve tried are a disappointing waste. I used to be you, trying to inform people, but the average person just does not give a fuck. Ive been telling people to ditch Facebook for 15 years. Told them to get rid of google for the past decade. Tried to get them to ditch purchases of licenses that prevent actual ownership of goods. Its like trying to sweep the ocean back from the coast. Like, good luck, I truly hope you succeed, but the reality is a little too obvious.
I can assure you that with your tone here, you are turning more people away from your cause than you’re converting.
Perhaps some introspection, before making new posts. Possibly go check how to converse with people in a polite way. God damn.
I mean for sure these games are bad for the industry but I don’t think it’s a moral failing for people to play them. The reality is that companies have learned how to manipulate and ease worse practices into games over time. It sucks that a notable number of people have fallen for it but accusing individuals of being at fault (especially here) isn’t going to change the industry.
for sure these games are bad for the industry
Yes. I’m glad you agree.
I don’t think it’s a moral failing for people to play them.
No, it DEFINITELY is. Willingly helping to pervert and destroy a formerly constructive industry is immoral. Players and developers will all suffer, if this shit isn’t stopped.
Also, the industry is already changing. You haven’t noticed the price of traditional non-free-to-pay games rising, recently? You think that’s entirely unrelated to this shit? The dollars that are going into the gacha hole are being sucked out of the traditional model. That’s pressuring the traditional publishers to raise unit prices.
I’m not about to tell anybody they’re evil for playing a game like this and not knowing any better. If you really wanna change people’s habits, you’d be better off showing them what a better game can be. Even then, they could legitimately prefer their gachas or be addicted. I think that’s pretty crazy but there’s only so much one can do.
The AAA price increase was mostly just wanting more money and using inflation as an excuse. They’re not necessarily hurting because of f2p games. Well made traditional games still sell but often times the big publishers put out unfinished crap or overload their full-price games with monetization anyways. Those may be hurt financially. Meanwhile, games like Elden Ring and BG3 have done extremely well.
The pressure to change needs to be put on the companies, not the individuals. What the individual mostly needs is awareness.
What the individual mostly needs is awareness.
Awareness, you say?
Like people making posts about this situation?
I mean, there are several people in this thread who didn’t realize how popular and widespread these recent mobile-style games had become.
Yeah. Awareness. Kinda makes sense, now that YOU MENTION IT.
EDIT: maybe you need some awareness, yourself. One of the things that radicalized me enough to make this post is a survey I saw, where one of the anime bitches from these games was being voted as one of the most influential female video game characters of the current century.
These games are now major influences, in the world. They are raking in vast amounts of money and huge portions of mindshare. I’m not being hyperbolic.
Awareness is good but berating your average Joe is not the way to make any kind of systemic change. It will make them not listen to you or even actively work against you.
I get what you’re saying. I haven’t been exactly displaying ideal form, here.
I think what set me off is how some of these people responding are just being intellectually dishonest. The industry-harming, anti-consuming practices I’m talking about ARE definitely harmful. But people are like “hmm, could you cite some examples?”
It’s like if I said “being hit on the hand with a sledgehammer causes injury,” and jackasses came crawling out of the woodwork, doing their best smug-ass Elon Musk impressions: “hmmm. Interesting, if true. Can you cite some examples of this phenomenon?”
It’s bloody fucking obvious that a hammer to the knuckles is bad for you. It’s equally obvious that mobile-style milk-the-customer-for-everything-and-fuck-the-actual-gameplay software development practices are harmful.
Playing along with intellectually dishonest people isn’t something ANYBODY should feel obligated to do. It’s arguably something to be avoided.
Makes sense. I definitely feel the same frustration sometimes and think it’s insane when people actively defend practices like these or try to sweep the problem under the rug.
I really find it disturbing that a couple of the comments have an “okay, Boomer” flavor to them.
Well, yeah, no shit. This IS coming from a place of “back in my day…”
Yeah, I do remember a time when games weren’t as horrifically monetized as they are becoming. But the difference between me and the average pathological Boomer is that I AM ON THE SIDE OF THE YOUNGER PEOPLE. I’m advocating for them to have the good experiences that I have had.
I don’t want them to be fucked over, stripped of their money, and abused by the corporate fuck-machine. It’s disheartening to basically get a response that feel like: “whatever, old guy. I’m happy paying hundreds of dollars for a handful of .png files of anime tiddies.”
