Do any of them know what the word “liberal” actually means?

  • FozzyOsbourne@lemm.eeOP
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    6 months ago

    My thoughts exactly! Every real-life human I’ve ever spoken to uses it to mean open-minded and every definition I look up agrees, yet for some reason half the people posting here think it exclusively means economically-neo-liberal capitalist.

    • ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works
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      6 months ago

      The context is typically pretty important for how it is being used. The user of the term often provides more than enough context I find.

      If ‘liberal’ is being used in a derogatory sense, which isn’t going to be captured by an academic definition, it’s often aimed at neoliberalism in a pretty broad sense.

      Which is probably what this meme is referring to: the shared rejection of neoliberalism. The motivations are different but that’s immaterial to these things. I mean: it is specifically referencing an American political party here: so I wouldn’t be looking for a political science definition on ‘liberal’.

        • ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works
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          6 months ago

          Those statements are both true, but: Neoliberalism dominates both political parties in the United States and has for generations. The Democratic Party is also neoliberal, (often in spite of their voters.)

          The Republican Party’s neoliberalism has fostered fascist and christian nationalist factions to the point they may take over.

          The Democratic Party’s stance has been to try and absorb disaffected Republican neoliberal voters from the above.

          Which leaves ‘non-neoliberal American liberals’ with the choice of supporting… well it is and has been a successful right wing strategy to say the least.

          • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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            6 months ago

            The Democratic Party’s stance has been to try and absorb disaffected Republican neoliberal voters from the above.

            That’s a leftist idea that Leftists just made up and are running with due to their own echo chambers. Dems do like capturing centrists, especially now the GOP has gone off the rails, but the coalition is absolutely led by progressives who push progressive policies as much as they can. The theory is to capture disaffected centrists and win them over with clearly superior Democrat policies and positions. Doesn’t always work, but that’s the play. When the Democratic party allows oil leases or higher border funding, it doesn’t do so skipping with joy. It does so reluctantly as part of a compromise to win other gains.

            This is the part where you get out the tin foil hats and claim that despite all evidence to the contrary, Democrats actually secretly want every bad thing ever to happen. Because they’re just that evil.

            • ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works
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              6 months ago

              Dems do like capturing centrists,

              Doesn’t always work, but that’s the play.

              Sure doesn’t. Very strong arguments to my point.

              • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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                6 months ago

                You didn’t even read it did you lol

                Just like “aha, everything you said actually supports me!” like you think it’s some sort of debate uno reverse card

                • ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works
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                  6 months ago

                  It doesn’t seem like you’re grasping that I wasn’t or haven’t really been refuting you.

                  The Democratic Party’s appeal to centrism by passing right wing policies is against their progressive base. The strategy doesn’t always work and it hasn’t been working.

                  So why you working yourself up?

    • Jimmyeatsausage@lemmy.world
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      6 months ago

      It’s easier than accepting nuance, and it’s usually from the same people who demonstrate that same lack of nuance in everything else they post.

    • Tryptaminev@lemm.ee
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      6 months ago

      1 favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.

      2 noting or pertaining to a political party advocating measures of progressive political reform.

      3 of, pertaining to, based on, or advocating liberalism, especially the freedom of the individual and governmental guarantees of individual rights and liberties.

      4 favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, especially as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.

      5 favoring or permitting freedom of action, especially with respect to matters of personal belief or expression:

      6 of or relating to representational forms of government rather than aristocracies and monarchies.

      7 free from prejudice or bigotry; tolerant

      8 open-minded or tolerant, especially free of or not bound by traditional or conventional ideas, values, etc.

      Only 5,7 and 8 are “open minded” Being favorable to progress does not mean being open minded and what constitutes as progressive is in itself up to debate. Individual rights and liberties can be understood as neo-liberal capitalism of “well the law allows you, your economic situation doesn’t concern us, and now back to slaving 60 hours a week.” Or it could mean “We need to enable people to enjoy their liberties so we need to ensure their basic human dignity with healthcare, education and social welfare to empower them.”

      • kameecoding@lemmy.world
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        6 months ago

        what the fuck is number 1 then?

        favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.

        what is number 2 then?

        noting or pertaining to a political party advocating measures of progressive political reform.

        I think if you go point by point and ignore the rest then you can argue semantics, but I don’t see how you can take all 8 together and argue what “progressive” means

        • Tryptaminev@lemm.ee
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          6 months ago

          Being favorable to reform does not mean being open minded. Open minded means to respect different people and their life choices. People hostile to traditional family or religious values are also “progressive” but often not open minded as they criticize people who choose a traditional way of life.

          The same goes for economic aspects. Neoliberalism is highly authoritarian. Specifically it is embraced by neofeudalists who want to reestablish their old feudal privileges but not through formal aristocracy, but by the merit of “free contracts” and them holding on to wealth. These are technically “progressive” yet they want to reintroduce power structures from a time past.