Alright, lets wrap that up, shall we.
After looking at OPs comments and discussing with him it’s clear to me that he posted this article with a clear agenda.
If Israel’s right to exist is a controversial topic, I‘m out.
I have the opinion that it’s not antisemitism to call out an evil government and protest against its actions.
Getting flustered about Germany saying Israel has a right to exist and not understanding historical reasons why that is the case is just naivety I hope.
If Israel’s right to exist is a controversial topic, I‘m out.
Fuck me, they’re arguing States rights. Is there a playbook for this atrocity denial or what?
Instance checks out
Sorry, I don’t understand you. What do you mean?
They are saying that your answer is indicative of the attitudes prevalent of your home instance. It’s a very common fediverse method of attempting to dismiss arguments that someone doesn’t agree with but can’t otherwise disprove.
That headline is false. You do not have to affirm Israel’s right to exist.
You have to know that it’s illegal to call for the destruction of the state of Israel. That’s not the same.
Seems to be a good way to filter out antisemitism.
What if the antisemites… lie?
True. I think it’s more symbolic.
However what I found out discussing with actual nazis: they don’t really like lying about something which is a core identity of them. They like to weasel around it, but hate saying something like: „all human life is equal.“
The anti-semites are probably ecstatic at the whole linking of a nation that commits Genocide and kills little children with snipers, bombs and starvation to the entire Jewish ethnicity.
It makes it incredibly easy for them to grab some particularly nasty action of the state of Israel as an example and say “See, that’s how Jews are like”.
Non-Jews going around telling other people, including Jews, that people who mass murder civilians, including very purposefully children, journalists and medical personnel, represent the Jewsih Religion and hence implying those actions are Jewishness, is the most antisemitic thing around.
yeah sure… antisemites come from other countries to Getmany. It’s not like Germany had any history with antisemitism. Just imagine a universe, where Germany killed people, just because they were jewish. Unimaginable! Right?
I think Germany has indeed a deep rooting problem with antisemitism. After all the time that’s concerning.
But no reason letting more into the county, don’t you think?
You know, the Nazis did not only kill Jews, they killed Muslims, Gypsies and homosexuals as well.
So what about them? why not ask if they recognize non-binary genders as well? why not put basic questions about Islam as well on the sheet?
Yes. And you have point. But Jews were the main enemy and scapegoat of the nazis. That’s just a historical fact.
Germany, there’s a time and place for everything. This is like supporting a "sovereign citizen’s " right to freedom during a murderous rampage. It’s giving “blue lives matter” during George Floyd’s murder.
Since many anti-semites use the current actions of Israel for, well for antisemitism, it’s the perfect time for it.
The right to exist has nothing to do with the actions of the current government.
Since what happened during the nazi regime, you surely can understand why Germany asks this question, don’t you?
Is the antisemitism in the room with us right now?
Cause it seems an awful lot to me like y’all are just calling anyone protesting what Israel is doing to Palestine antisemitic.
Is the antisemitism in the room with us right now?
https://feddit.org/comment/90760 quite literally
Im german. I’ve seen it. I’ve heard it. I’ve seen it in the news. It’s more subdued than racism, at least were I live. But it’s there.
And by the way, I’m against the current government in Israel and its actions and i think those responsible should be held accountable before an international court.
All I see in the news is German police beating up pro-Palestine protestors and politicians trying to silence everyone who is pro-Palestine. Even worse trying to cut funding for researchers who speak out against police brutality against peaceful protestors inside universities. Never again for Germans equals never again Jewish people and apparently nothing more.
This is like a serial-killer, becoming a lawyer and fighting against death-penalty of other serial-killers.
States are not people. The government after the war was not the same as during the third reich.
Sure, but the mindset of the people gets passed down from generation to generation.
I don’t know what you actually want to say about with that. Germans are nazis, that’s why they support now the people they wanted to kill?
They are supporting the exact same scheme they did back in then.
Back then, it was normal to humiliate Jews mentally and physically, while people were looking away.
Today, the IDF (Israel) is about to make the same thing happen to Palestinians. Most of that can be seen on all the video evidence captured by civilians and press.
It’s German. Please translate if you don’t understand it. It’s about a shouting argument between the German foreign minister and Netanyahu.
Clearly the profound racism never disappeared, otherwise the German power elites wouldn’t “unwaveringly support” a nation because of the ethnicity of the majority of its people and its leaders: the more visible artifacts of ancient germanic symbols, goose stepping and the brown shirts might be gone but the thinking that some people are more worthy than others purelly because of their ethnicity is still just as strong.
Additionally, that the German authorities are now going so far as shown in this and other news in support of the ethno-Fascists of a specific ethnicity, also indicates that the authoritarian tendencies too are alive and well in the mindset of the German power elites.
It looks a lot like the foundations of Nazism are alive, well and returning to prominence, with a different symbology and façade, but still the same view of humans as ethnics and the same authoritarian forceful imposition of a race-based view of the worth of human beings on others.
It’s actually quite scary to watch from the outside as Germany goes back to overtly using force to suppress dissent on its power elite’s racial supremacist views for the benefit of an extreme form of ethno-Fascism, even if this time around it’s not the Arian Race that’s being “supported”.
The antisemitism is the linking of a specific nation state and its disgusting actions to an entire ethnicity even when members of that ethnicity very overtly and explicitly disavow that link.
Germany’s actions have all the hallmarks of German “tradition”: assuming that Jews are all the same, telling Jews what Jewishness is, implying there are good Jews (who follow Germany’s definition of Jewishness) and bad Jews (who don’t).
Clearly Nazi thinking was never eliminated amongst the German elites, it just got its lists of “good races” and “bad races” updated.
You hit the nail squarely on the head.
The new Nazis and the old Nazis teaming up is a sight to behold.
Acknowledging a country’s right to exist is the opposite of Nazi policy…
Maintaining that an Apartheid state has the right to keep being an Apartheid state is very Nazi-like.
This is not agreeing that Israel is allowed to continue committing genocide. This is just saying that country is allowed to exist as a country. Or do you think that once a country commits a horrific act that they should no longer be allowed to exist?
I’m more interested in the inverse: when does colonizing an already-inhabited area turn into a recognized country? Because Israel was created by a stroke of the pen out of Palestinian land. Or is it purely “might makes right”?
Oh. Could you educate us more about this? Why exactly was it created with the stroke of a pen and when? And by whom? By the mighty Jewish people?
not OP, but, google Mandatory Palestine
No, sorry.
the thing is…WTF do people care about Israel, Brazil, Uganda, Madagascar, etc. when applying for German citizenship? That’s the whole point of this absurdity.
You can’t understand that a county that once did a genocide tried to make amends?
A country being shitty doesn’t mean they don’t have a right to exist. Does Russia not have a right to exist? Did Iraq not have a right to exist?
Countries, as a rule, don’t have a right to exist. People have a right to self-determination. These are different things. That said, Israel is fundamentally an Apartheid state. If Israel stopped being an Apartheid state it’d stop being Israel. And if a state needs to treat half the people in it as second class citizens to exist then it can go die in a ditch.
White South Africa did not have the right to exist. Rhodesia did not have a right to exist.
That’s what we are talking about.
Israel has become a Jewish supremacist apartheid state. Its crimes have become so egregious and so entrenched (“facts on the ground”) that it is not unreasonable to argue that it cannot be reformed in its present form. In this case it is reasonable to argue for its replacement by a democratic successor state in which Jews and others will all have the same rights to freedom and safety.
So funny story, South Africa was able to end apartheid without not existing.
Imagine that!
Wake me up when Israel institutes universal suffrage and legal equality for everyone from the river to the sea, elects Marwan Barghouthi as president and changes it flag and anthem to incorporate Palestinian national symbolism. If such a country would like to still call itself Israel, I will be happy to be proven wrong.
Because this is what ending apartheid means, buddy. Not just getting rid of Netanyahu, but deep structural change, and a commitment to justice, truth and reconciliation.
I favor a two state solution myself, as it is my understanding that is the desire of the majority of Palestinians.
Do you mean you support Russian ownership of Crimea?
No, because Crimea is part of Ukraine.
What makes it different from Israel on occupied Palestine?
Honestly, time. Time eventually changes things and Russia’s occupation of Crimea was only a decade ago and the founding of Israel was like 80 years ago. Israel’s continued expansion and settlement is wrong and comparable to Russia occupying Crimea.
no state has a right to exist. None of them.
Points for consistency, but no points for nihilism because the points are meaningless anyway.
I don’t consider myself a nihilist, so where did that come from?
The historical Nazi Germany was actually quite supportive of zionist efforts and interestingly the reverse was also true for some time before the holocaust got into full swing.
The Nazi party supported zionist plans because they wanted more options for expelling Jews. That was antisemetic.
Modern Germany is supporting the state of Israel’s existence because of modern antisemitic rhetoric about how Israel shouldn’t exist. This requirement is in opposition to antisemitism.
The context is completely different.
So let me get your stance correct: you think that because Israel is currently committing genocide that they don’t have the right to exist as a country?
Answering this question would have impact on my ability to acquire German citizenship.
Then that’s your own issue. Germany is a sovereign country who can choose who it wants as citizens. They have chosen to not allow in their country the kind of people who actively work against the right of a certain type of person to exist. Maybe you aren’t that kind of person and are just opposed to the creation of Israel in the middle of someone else’s country without their consent (which I agree was very wrong to do, but at some point we as civilized people need to move forward and figure out how to live in peace instead of constant fighting), but the vast majority of people who say Israel doesn’t have a right to exist are the kind of people who deny the holocaust and think Jewish people don’t have the right to exist. Germany doesn’t want any MORE of that kind of person in their country.
Now, the inverse SHOULD also be true where they require people to say that Palestine has the right to exist as a country, but that excludes most of the world right now.
But people are conflating recognizing Israel as a sovereign state with approving and condoning their actions. If all countries were held to that standard, there wouldn’t be any countries around. The shit my own country does would exclude us from being recognized as a country under that standard.
Denying the right of the Jewish state to exist is not denying the right of the Jewish people to exist IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY as denying the right of white Afrikaner South Africa to exist is not a call for the genocide of white Afrikaners.
Afrikaners have a right to life and a right to safety. They don’t have the right to set up an Afrikaner ethnostate on top of the rest of the people who inhabit the land.
Germany is right 100% to combat antisemitism. They are wrong, entirely wrong, to use recognition of Israel as a metric to detect it. It is in fact extremely dangerous and ultimately a generator of antisemitism. Attitudes towards Israel should never be used as proxy for attitudes towards Jews. Anti-semitism is irrational and atavistic at its core. Opposition to the existence of Israel as such is a spectrum of nuanced, but rational positions about land, rights, justice and so on. By lumping in rational arguments with atavistic feelings, they are giving the legitimacy of reason to Anti-semitism.
In fact the majority of European antisémites have zero problem with the existence of Israel “out there”. They are more than happy to see the Jews leave Europe for the middle east. American antisémites are fantasizing that Israel will be the site of the Second Coming of Christ who will then turn all the Jews into Christians. This observation alone should tell you everything about why it is stupid and wrong to use attitudes towards Israel as proxy measures for attitudes towards Jews. When the antisémites pass your metric with flying colours whereas Jewish anti-Zionists fail it, your metric is just shit, simple as that.
Germany is making an extremely dangerous choice here, when they really don’t need to. They don’t have to take a maximalist pro-revisionist-zionism position. They are in fact taking sides in an internal debate between Jews and picking and choosing certain Jews as good and others as bad. Under these statutes Jewish people who speak out against Zionism are automatically labelled as … antisémites.
This is wrong wrong wrong in every way and it makes the world worse for Jews first and foremost.
So what is your solution to all of the people living in Israel (not in the occupied West Bank)? Where do they go?
Around 30% if Jewish Israelis weren’t even born there. Most of the rest are just one generation in.
They stay right where they are. They may need to pay reparations to Palestinians they displaced however, and any laws restricting land ownership or buying and selling to Jews should be abolished.
Who is the government? Is it an elected body? Who elects them?
Because either you appoint a government that is made from basically Hamas (that’ll be peaceful!), or you open elections for a new country where Jewish people are 73% of the population… so basically Israel again but now with officially more territory.
the thing is, why the fuck do I have to answer questions about Israel, China, Uganda, or Madagascar or any country, other than Germany, when applying for a German citizenship? That’s absurd!
Because Germany has a history that they want to put behind them. The already have way too many citizens who are white power, neo-nazi assholes who still call for death to Jews, so it’s somewhat logical that they decided they don’t want any more of that mindset as citizens who can vote.
Filling out a piece of paper prevents no one from being racist
Israel can have the Gaza strip if Palestine gets to take control of the rest of Israel. Problem solved.
Wow, so all the jews have to do is start genociding, and all of a sudden Germany realizes, ‘hey these guys aren’t so bad after all!’
Man, I hate this “ThE jEwS” crap… Zionist Israel is not “the Jews” and equating them is actually quite antisemitic.
It’s not the jews. It’s zionists who would love to make those synonymous.
Israel definitely has the right to exist. But so do a hundred odd other countries. Yet you do not acknowledge each of them one by one. All Germany has to do going forward is provide the necessary education on dangers of anti semitism, fascism and take this task very seriously. This is just meaningless over compensation or even worse maybe the result of meaningless lobbying.
Thank God you’re just another powerless dweeb on the internet and will never be in any position to decide important things
Oh hi chancellor of Germany lol
This is idiotic. Gandhi hated that Pakistan split off and said that he recognized their existence but would never recognize their “right” to exist.
That’s not even an international policy. Does Castile have a right to exist? Does Kashmir? Does Kurdistan? Why doesn’t Germany demand the same for others?
Because of our history with Israel? I am all against the genocide against palestinians but defending israels right to exist is a good thing
Granting Israelis the right to Lebensraum.
our history with israel is the third reich and israel having friendly relations. We are continuing nazi tradition by supporting israel.
If “their right to exist” weren’t used to mean “their right to take land from Palestinians and create settlements in land they took through violence” it would be a bit simpler to agree with the statement, but the foundation if Israel itself has always been on pretty shakey ground. The only reason Israel has a right to exist is because it’s impractical that they’d leave at this point. They should leave the land they’ve stolen though.
Why add this to te immigration screeming process while they are actively committing war crimes, stealing land and murdering kids?
germany has managed to land on te wrong side of history twice in the same conversation.
Blindly standing with a group becuase germany feels they have given their own atrocious history.
As of today they’re also expanding deportations. If you are caught using banned slogans on social media such as from the river to the sea and you’re a foreigner you will get deported for “praising terrorism”. Some politicians argue that even as much as a like will be enough for the authorities to throw you out of the country.
And if you have double citizenship and you got your German one as of this year, they will be able to cancel your citizenship if you’re ever convicted of questioning Israel’s right to exist.
Nope, not true. Stop spreading misinformation just because you want to get public praise.
You will not automatically get deported, but it will be made easier to deport foreigners who are praising terrorism. There’s a big difference. You always have legal recourse against this.
That’s important because the phrase “from the river to the sea” is not illegal praise of terrorism in Germany, even if you may have heard so from your equally misinformed bubble. While its use shows that the person saying has a big problem with accepting that a complex situation will certainly not be reflected in a catchy sentence, and that it may be time for that person to just excuse them from a discussion they are very likely not a part of, it is not illegal.
Why? Because courts will have to make the decision whether its use in a specific context was illegal, and more often than not it won’t be.
In Germany, you can’t currently deport anyone just for expressing extremist views. However, recently there were demonstrations in Hamburg where about 1,000 people marched to advocate for a caliphate and Sharia law in Germany, which led to a public debate about exactly this. However, this isn’t about Palestine but about anti-constitutional extremism. Some state interior ministers are now advocating to explicitly outlaw this kind of islamist extremism, potentially paving the way for easier deportations for those advocating for a caliphate in Germany. Here’s a german article on the topic.
the phrase “from the river to the sea” is not illegal praise of terrorism in Germany, even if you may have heard so from your equally misinformed bubble
Oh yeah, my misinformed bubble, the official government press conferences: https://youtu.be/lBmDdNZmToU?si=rsLM5CyTSjEFxBTI&t=353
Or DW https://www.dw.com/en/german-cabinet-backs-deportations-for-praise-of-terrorism/a-69480819
I’ve seen people (including jews) getting fined for hate speech for an instagram story containing just “from the river to the sea palestine will be free” From now on, that will also come with a deportation.
The highly esteemed german courts will have the freedom to decide what fits into which context. A social media like will land you in court. Saying that hamas committed terrorist acts but also that it is a resistance movement spawned out of the oppression will also land you in a court because any nuanced discussion is too much for the german intellect and instantly means “pRaIsInG tErRoRiSm”.
I can’t wait to see all the neolibs that clapped when the greens and the social democrats passed these laws, when the AfD gets in power here (which will definitely happen sooner or later, following the EU wide far right movements) and when they decide to reinterpret those “contexts” their highly esteemed german courts like to discuss so much. I’m sure this draconian stuff won’t backfire. But hell, who cares, it’s only Ausländer getting the short end of the stick anyway.
So the blog post just states that the phrase isn’t illegal to use but the state still decides to “investigate” its use often by using force, arrests, and by searching peoples’ homes, confiscating their electronic devices and so on. It’s good to hear that the “Verfassungsblog” argues that its use isn’t generally illegal, but also states that the current police proceedings are going to great extent to intimidate people
You are very naive if you think that the German authorities would not bend or abuse such laws. If you’re a white German and as such not a victim of the systemic racism prevalent in the institutions of pretty much all European countries, you can’t understand this. Good for you but you’re incredibly privileged to an extent that you don’t seem to grasp based on your reply.
with your previous comment you went far afield, but you’re not wrong either.
If they managed to push this thing through, they might as well force other laws onto people.
Oh for the love of fuck would you get out of your bottomless victim pit?
CEAS: “Breaches of core legal principles are going to become the new normal”
Greek coastguard threw migrants overboard to their deaths, witnesses say
Hungary’s Migrant Abuse Is ‘Matter of Urgency,’ European Agency Finds
Canceling Palestine by Slavoj Žižek
Are your tinned tomatoes picked by slave labour?
Detention, Insecurity, Rights Deprivation – The Legal Crackdown on Asylum Seekers in Germany
The Serbian borders are heavily affected by pushbacks and police brutality
Here’s something for you to read. Took me literally a few minutes to put all of this together. There’s so much more. Most of Europe is slowly sliding into fascism and you somehow believe I am in a „victim pit“ by pointing that out? It always begins with the most vulnerable people. And then as a leftist suddenly you’re a „terrorist“ for criticizing the government and off you go.
Similarly in Scandinavia. Friends, who live in Sweden, told me about multiple people claiming how Sweden is turning more fascist, compared to previous years.
Eastern Europe doesn’t represent Europe as a whole. Never has, never will.
No. The victim pit you’re in is the perpetual victim role you’ve taken on as a personality.
And who represents Europe as a whole? Aryans?
Rofl.
Yeah so you didn’t read a single article. You didn’t even bother to read the headlines that I copy & pasted for you. How are Germany, Italy, Greece in Eastern Europe? more than half of the articles are about them.
Apart from that I don’t see how your ad hominem attacks are relevant or productive for having this conversation.
Well no. Your premise was anecdotal experience. Your articles are not relevant. Funny how you’re annoyed at someone else’s ad hominem, yet yours is totally valid? Ze victim complex runz deep.
I’m not denying my privilege, but I’d argue that I’m more aware of my biases than you appear to be
Germany equating its historic debt to Jewish people with support for a particular state is an absolutely disgusting distortion of the German obligation of remembrance.
Just like this, they throw under the bus any anti-Zionist Jew.
Honestly, when it comes to Israel/Palestine, the German state should just do what their other genocide victim, Namibia, told them to do and shut the fuck up. Stay the fuck out of it. Say the honorable thing that you will abide by the rulings of international courts. Provide humanitarian aid, help refugees. Be a ray of light and humanity, not a stickler for rules and definitions. Don’t be so goddamn fucking German for a change.
What this person said.
~ sincerely, a German
(Seriously though, the situation here is intense. Our minister of education is currently under pressure to resign by the scientific community (which she refuses to do) because her ministry was looking for ways to defund / revoke grants to 400 university researchers who had criticized the way in which a pro-Palestinian protest was handled. That’s all it takes.)
I mean you can always move to a country which better suits your political leanings 🤷 and you probably should, chuddy.
…no words.
Leaving my home, friends, family and everything build up behind just because of my political views? What an absolutely genius idea, why haven’t I thought of this earlier?!
That’s the dumbest take ever. Look up the history of Israel and then tell us again how “it’s just a random state why does Germany care lol” isn’t.
I didn’t say it’s a random state, I said it was a particular one. It is one particular expression of Jewishness, when others also exist. Precisely because of the history of Germany, the German state has no business whatsoever to play arbiter about which version of Jewishness is the most authentic.
Now you’re just rambling
Not accepting israels right to exist is a call for genocide against israel. Israel exists and has the right to exist. You can recognize that and still be against Netanyahus government.
By that logic the creation of israel was a genocidal act in itself because it created a right for a people to eist where others were existing previously.
If removing the right to exist of the Palestinian people is perfectly acceptable why is it necessary to keep chanting support for the rights of the aggressor?
Israeli jews have the right to life, freedom, safety. They have the right to a home in the Holy Lands.
They don’t have the right to set up a Jewish supremacist apartheid state to deny the same rights to everyone else.
The state that they have created and entrenched with genocide and “facts on the ground” no longer has legitimacy to exist in its present form.
Ending this political entity to create a new democratic one is not genocide by any stretch of imagination.
It isnt. No settler state has a right to exist, the settlers already there should integrate into the indigenous culture or leave. This includes the US, Canada, Australia and so on.
I agree, we all need to move back to Africa. All 8 billion of us.
migration =/= colonialism
Unless you’re asserting that none of your ancestors have ever claimed land at the expense of somebody else, you’re a colonist.
For all its faults and crimes, and Lord knows there are many, the country I’m in isn’t oppressing a people native to this region.
My point being, go far enough back, and you WILL have found a people or tribe that got wiped out so another group could claim their territory. Where do you (arbitrarily) draw the line?
This includes Functionally EVERY state with incredibly few if any exceptions. Whens your line for when a conqueror becomes a local?
migration =/= colonialism
To expand on this, the oppression of the indigenous peoples of these nations is ongoing. Its not in the past its still happening. Thats the line.
its historic debt to Jewish people
One would assume this debt would be repaid with German lands and monies, rather than land and money looted from Arabs a continent away.
Honestly, when it comes to Israel/Palestine, the German state should just do what their other genocide victim, Namibia, told them to do and Shut. The. Fuck. Up.
Yeah, crazy how the Germans are full throated supporters of Israel, but you never see them waving big Nambia flags and asserting the rights of African state sovereignty. I’m forced to wonder why, as I flip through my history book of “German Prime Ministers After 1949”.
What happens if they affirmed that both Israel and Palestine’s right to exist?
They deny your citizenship on the grounds that you are a member of Hamas.
But not Palestine’s.
The German state doesn’t recognise Palestine as a state currently, so probably not.
Only a few countries west of the former Iron Curtain recognise Palestine (Iceland and Sweden, and as of this year Norway, Ireland, and Spain)Germany doesn’t recognize Palestine’s right to exist. It’s only fair Germany gets deported
