Updated! Updates are shown in quote text like this. Some scores are updated following app updates.
An Apps Experiment
Cross-posted from https://lemmy.world/post/18159531
Introduction
This is an experiment I performed out of curiosity, and I have a few big disclaimers at the bottom. Basically, I’ve seen a lot of comments recently about one app or another not displaying something right. Lemmy has been around for a while now and can no longer be considered an experimental platform.
Lemmy and the apps that people use to access the platform have become an important part of people’s lives. Whether you are checking the app weekly or daily, and whether you use it to stay up on the news or to stay connected to your hobby, it’s important that it works. I hope that this helps people to see the extent of the challenge, and encourages developers to improve their apps, too.
How I did it
I wanted to investigate objectively how accurately each app displays text of posts and comments using the standard Lemmy markdown. Markdown is a standard part of the Lemmy platform, but not all apps handle it the same. It is basically what gives text useful formatting.
I used the latest release of each app, but did not include pre-releases. I only included apps that have released an update in the last 6 months, which should include most apps in active development. I was unable to test iOS-exclusive apps, so they are not included either. In all, 16 apps met the inclusion criteria.
I also added Eternity, which is in active development, although it has not had a recent update. I was able to include several iOS apps thanks to testing from @jordanlund@lemmy.world – Thanks, Jordan! This made for 20 apps that were tested.
Each app was rated in 5 categories: Text, Format, Spoilers, Links, and Images. I chose these mostly based on the wonderful Markdown Guide from @marvin@sffa.community, which was posted about a year ago in !meta@sffa.community (here).
I checked whether each app correctly displayed each category, then took the overall average. Each category was weighted equally. Text includes italic, bold, strong, strikethrough, superscript, and subscript. Format includes block quotes, lists, code (block and inline), tables, and dividers. Spoilers includes display of hidden, expandable spoilers. Links includes external links, username links, and community links. Images included embedded images, image references, and inline images.
Thanks to input from others, I also added a test to see if lemmy hyperlinks opened in-app. There was a problem with using the SFFA Community Guide that caused some apps to be essentially penalized twice because there was formatting inside formatting, so I created this TEST POST to more clearly and fairly measure each app.
In each case, I checked whether the display was correct based on the rules for Lemmy Markdown, and consistent with the author’s intent. In cases where the app recognized the tag correctly but did not display it accurately, that was treated as a fail.
Results
Out of a possible perfect 10, 6 apps displayed all markdown correctly:
Alexandrite - 10.0
Connect - 10.0
Jerboa (Official Android client) - 10.0
Photon - 10.0
Summit - 10.0
Voyager - 10.0
Quiblr - 9.5
Arctic - 9.3
Interstellar - 9.1
Lemmuy-UI - 9.0
Thunder - 8.9
Tesseract - 8.6
mlmym - 8.0
Racoon - 7.6
Boost - 7.3
Eternity - 7.0
Lemmios - 6.9
Sync - 6.9
Lemmynade - 6.1
Avelon - 5.7
Disclaimers
Disclaimers
I Love Lemmy Apps (and their devs)
Lemmy apps devs work very hard, and invest a lot in the platform. Lemmy is better because they are doing the work that they do. Like, a LOT better. Everyone who uses the platform has to access it through one app or another. Apps are the face of the entire platform. Whether an app is a FOSS passion project, underwritten by a grant, or generating income through sales or ads, no one is getting rich by making their app. It is for the benefit of the community.
This is not meant to be a rating of the quality or functionality of any app. An app may have a high rating here but be missing other features that users want, or users may love an app that has a lower rating. This is just about how well apps handle markdown.
This is pretty unscientific
You’ll see my methodology above. I’m not a scientist. There is probably a much better way to do this, and I probably have biases in terms of how I went about it. I think it’s interesting and probably has some valuable information. If you think it’s interesting, let me know. If you think of a better way, PM me and I’d be happy to share what I have so you don’t have to start from scratch.
My only goal is to help the community
I do think that accurately displaying markdown should be a standard expectation of a finished app. I hope that devs use this as an opportunity to shore up the areas that are lagging, and that they have a set of standards to aim for.
I don’t have any Apple things
Sorry. This is just Android and Web review. If someone would like to see how iOS apps are doing, please reach out and I’ll share how we can work together to include them.
Hey, I’m the Photon dev. I’d like to know which parts Photon incorrectly displayed, so far I only see tables rendering incorrectly. I’ll have this fixed soon.
Update: fixed table displays, pushed to main
Could this be updated now? 🥺 (you can test here)
Holy shit, Photon has gotten this good now? When I tried it a few months back it felt like just yet another Lemmy client. Now it feels so smooth and polished. Works great on mobile even. Thanks for making this!
Photon is so great i honestly feel like it should replace the default
Agreed, translating it to french made me discover so many little features, did you knoe it can show the political bias of a linked article?
Thats really cool i didnt know that
Hey, the admin of slrpnk.net has been thinking of making Photon the default frontend but updates to it sometimes cause breaking issues? Any chance you could get into contact with them so it can become the default in a way that updates wont break it?
I contacted them about it.
Amazing, thank you!
tell the admin to make a post on !photon@lemdro.id, xylight is vfry responsive.
Woohoo Voyager!
Voyager gang, let’s scroll
Voyager da 🐐 no 🧢
Interesting to see that even Lemmy-UI does not display markdown completely correctly
For some reason, Lemmy-UI does not convert usernames to links: @gedaliyah@lemmy.world
Dunno … I went to the linked page in the top post and everything seemed fine to me (using Lemmy-UI)
It doesn’t display headings, I know that much.
#Heading
I’m not sure
#heading
is valid markdown (see, eg, Daring Fireball’s “original” syntax page) … and I’ve never seen it. I’ve always understood that the space was necessary, which I think makes sense for a number of reasons TBHSo …
#This does not work
This does work
I know that it works on some sites (reddit for example). Generally, it is not preferred.
Didn’t know it worked on reddit. Generally it seems necessary to require the space as it disambiguates headings from hashtags, and also makes the raw text more readable.
In doing this I learned that there are “correct” but also “preferred” ways to use markdown. A heading should have a
space
after the#
even though it is correct either way.##Heading
Heading
These lines may be the same or different in different apps.
The thing of it is, if you just highlight some text and hit the heading button in the GUI, it doesn’t include the space.
Interesting. I never noticed that. As I said, it’s technically correct but not preferred. I’ll see if I can post a link about this later.
Heading
Voyager gang!
Same here
Where are all my fellow voyagers at?
Checking in
deleted by creator
Checkin innnn
wefwef 🫡
Bravo Voyager! 🔥
I don’t even see footnotes in the documentation[1], but they can be pretty useful. It’s
^[text]
, in case others are curious.
I don’t see foot notes mentioned in the CommonMark spec. https://spec.commonmark.org/0.31.2/
That’s really interesting. AFAIK Lemmy devs do not have a comprehensive markdown documentation. I thought it was CommonMark plus spoilers and Lemmy links, but it seems like they have other changes as well.
I filed a bug with Jerboa a long time ago about something related to this (I don’t remember exactly). I guess right now the philosophy is that every front end/app can render how they see fit.
Ultimately, this is just my opinion about what apps should prioritize in terms of markdown. I don’t think it’s too much of an ask that these be consistent across apps. I’m not sure that there has ever really been an effort by the devs to standardize things in this kind of way. As I said in the post itself. Lemmy is no longer a baby platform. people have been sharing these best practices for markdown for over a year at least.
I think that when someone posts, they should have a reasonable expectation that people will see what they intend.
I agree, it should look the same everywhere
They aren’t in the CommonMark spec but tables and spoilers aren’t either.
Yes, I didn’t go that far down the rabbit hole. I decided to very unscientificly pick five categories that I personally thought were relevant and score those. There are lots of markdown types and situations that are not captured here.
Whoa footnotes! That’s a thing?
did
u
know
u
can
nest
spoilers?
dog pic
Worth the effort for the good boy or girl.
Awesome
hello fellow client dev
Whoa that’s cool! It works in Thunder!
Neat! I did not know that.
What about eternity. Pretty sure it hasn’t been updated in ages tho.
9 months ago, which is a good reason to not include it in the overview.
A new version will be out soon
It did not fit the criteria to be included in the experiment.
I used the latest release of each app, but did not include pre-releases. I only included apps that have released an update in the last 6 months
Not only has Eternity not been updated in almost an entire year, but it is still a pre-release (v0.1.2 at the moment).
At the very least it doesn’t handle spoilers correctly
I don’t understand why there isn’t a “markdown library” of some sort that software developers can just use in their app. I haven’t looked too deep into this, but it has always seemed to me that every app must individually implement markdown display. Why?
Because markdown has committed the worst of old programming sins. It has no standard.
However I’m pretty sure that Lemmy has a standard so there’s not really much excuse.
Lemmy documentation references CommonMark so I’m assuming that is the accepted standard, plus a few Lemmy specific things.
Isn’t the base markdown standardized?
It’s just that so many flavors advertise themselves as markdown+ flavor?
only sort of.
this is the original document defining markdown, and you’ll notice it doesn’t really specify a lot of the things that have compatibility issues across different markdown processors, along with allowing arbitrary html which really depends on where you’re showing it. There’s a list of ambiguous syntax here.
CommonMark is as close to a standard as we have.
Thanks for the info. I thought that markdownguide.org was the standard as explained in your link from the creator.
By using what is described in markdownguide, I’ve never encountered any issue with any markdown compatible text editor.
There are Markdown libraries. Many have small differences and many apps have their own custom additions though.
The problem isn’t that there are no libraries out there that parse Markdown. There are, in fact, plenty for all different languages. The issue is that every site has its own flavor of it. Lemmy does it one way, GitHub another, and something else does it completely differently yet again.
It is, unfortunately, kind of a mess.
As one of the Thunder devs, I can say there are markdown libraries. Thunder is written in Dart/Flutter and there is a great library that we use.
https://pub.dev/packages/flutter_markdown
That said, and as others have mentioned, markdown is not as well standardized and it seems like just about every site renders it differently, so there are a lot of edge cases to handle. Lemmy also has several unique implementations of things, such as spoilers, superscript/subscript, and the ability to tag users/communities without a hyperlink.
In fact, one of the things Thunder failed on (table alignment) is a known bug in the markdown library we use. :-)
I see. Markdown badly needs a good standard, doesn’t it.
Is there a list of what each app failed? It would be nice for the devs to be able to see. I use Mlem, and there is about to be a new release rebuilding it from the ground up. Hopefully it will rate higher once that happens.
Yes, I’ve linked it in the post, and you can find the test post and detailed results.
Thanks. Interesting how the apps, even those that have lower scores, perform better than a web browser. Using Safari and Firefox (on a laptop) and both open your links in Lemmy.world instead of that thread on my instance. Neither recognize the user as anything other than text.
Odds are that’s Lemmy-UI. It should behave the same in any browser.
I’ve been using Mlem since week 2 and I have no idea if I’m missing anything or not. I’ve never visited any instance on anything but Mlem.
Same, and I suspect we are missing stuff because I’ve never seen a gif and often see a bunch of emoji (in place of a photo album? Idk)
I don’t think Mlem has link embed support
Voyager, bruh.
Browser master race😎
That’s Lemmy UI
FYI, how wrote “Lemmuy - UI” in the post, I thought it was another app I didn’t hear about.
That’s just what it’s called.
Really? Not just Lemmy UI?
I seriously did not catch that typo, even when you pointed it out 🫢
What features does the browser UI not display properly? 👀
It doesn’t link usernames correctly. The editor has the option to convert usernames to links, but does not handle plaintext usernames:
@gedaliyah@lemmy.world
Oh, cool. Nice analysis! I know spoilers not rendering correctly is a big one.
If you’re getting that granular then you must’ve had to record the data somewhere. Did I miss where the OP is sharing their data set?
Sure, you can DM me somewhere to share a spreadsheet. Just please keep in mind that DM in Lemmy is not encrypted.
Just add it to the post lmao.