I remember as a kid the teachers were desperately trying to make “he or she” a thing and told us the singular “they” would never be acceptable.
I’m personally glad that movement failed.
looking back, some of my educators were monumentally stupid
OVERSHARING TIME
My body doesn’t burp; when I drink something carbonated I have to physically gag myself with something to get the air out. When I was a kid I didn’t know this and would get pain in my stomach and didn’t understand why.
Coke with my lunch two days in a row resulted in trips to my home room teacher to ask to see the nurse, or go home. My home room teacher crossed her arms and said, “this is the second day in a row you’ve done this to us,” and lectured me about trying to get out of class. I had no way of proving that I was actually in pain. I was angry and scared and couldn’t do anything about it. Do not give me the keys to the time machine or there will be violence.
Are you a horse ?
I learned English at school and the first time I encountered singular they was when my teacher explained it to us. Sometimes non native speakers are less prescriptive than native speakers
No, it’s just been a thing forever, and will always be thing. Those teachers, if they ever existed, which I doubt, were just dumb fucks from Dumbfuckistan.
Teachers didn’t know vapid influencers would exist.
In “who left their bag here”'s case, the gender of the person is not known because their identity isn’t known, so it doesn’t feel strange to use (for us old farts). It can take some effort to retrain your brain to use “they” when it’s a single person whose identity is known (speaking from experience as a Gen Xer).
Or the person might just be a transphobic asshole. But I like to think that most just need to educate themselves on using pronouns correctly.
One thing that might help it feel less strange is realising that you already use a grammatically plural pronoun to refer to individuals all the time: the word “you”. It’s always “you are tall”, not “you is tall”, same as “we” or “they” instead of “he” or “she”. This is because it was historically plural, and “thou” was the singular. Over time we started using the plural to be more polite, and then eventually always using it.
“Thou is tall” sounds weird though.
you already use a grammatically plural pronoun to refer to individuals all the time: the word “you”. It’s always “you are tall”,
This made my brain short circuit lol. Can’t believe I never noticed.
That’s because “is” is the third person conjugation of Be, not the second. Of course it sounds weird.
“Thou are”, and the actually correct “thou art” both feel much more natural.
But we’re back to plural, they said thou is singular.
The conjugation of Be, “is” is not used in the second person (you, be it singular or plural) any more than “am” is (“am” is first person singular form.) regardless of the plurality (or lack thereof) in the subject.
The correct Be conjugations for second person subjects are “art” (2nd, singular, archaic) and “are”.
So is thou/you plural or singular? I’m very confused. I’m not a grammar person lol. This conversation began because someone said thou is singular.
Thou is singular and you is plural. Thou art. You are.
Do you remember your conjugation tables from Spanish or French class?
English has them too, but the modern ones are much smaller than most (all?) other European languages.
Editted in:
Prn. | To be | note I am 1st person (the speaker) singular.
We are 1st person plural.
Thou art 2nd person (the one being spoken to) singular (archaic).
You are 2nd plural and singular.
(s)he /it is 3rd person (neither the speaker or spoken to) singular.
They are 3rd plural and singular
I’m joining in the “this blew my mind” sentiment and just want to say thanks for sharing this tidbit of info.
It only feels strange because of how it’s been used previously in my lifetime, not from historical usage. But as you’ve shown, language changes over time, and not having a singular neutral pronoun has proven to be a big omission in English (since “they” has only traditionally been used that way in certain limited cases). If it was good enough for “you,” it’s good enough for “they!”
Yeah it can take a while to get used to, especially if you knew the person before they changed their pronouns. But the point is it isnt incompatible with our language at all. I think the last panel would be better if it showed the (transphobic) guy and another person and he says “this activist said the craziest thing to me today” and then the second person says “oh yeah, what’d THEY say” because then the ‘they’ pronoun would be directly referring to the person who wanted to be called ‘they’ in the first place.
I mean, I’m mid 30s, and it took me a long time to internalize “he, she, they” rather than “he, she, it”. It’s just how they were used when I was growing up. Fortunately, I’ve had the opportunity to learn and grow. At the end of the day, just speak with respect and make sure you listen as much as, or more than, speak.
I agree. It’s hard to put myself back in the old mindset (and I was definitely not supportive of this type of thing back in pre-2014) but I really do think I used to use “his or her” more often than “their”, or at least in more formal settings.
I remember on Mark Rosewater’s Tumblr blog he ran a Q&A (he is the lead designer of Magic: The Gathering). Someone was asking about cards using “his or her” instead of “their” because not everyone uses he/she pronouns. His response was basically that the reason they did that was because they used the Chicago style guide and it said to use “his or her” when referring to a single person of unknown gender. Basically he said that he understood players have different genders, but it was just a style thing, and that the rules even said something about “his or her” referring to the player (regardless of gender). Since then, I believe Magic cards now use “their”, so it’s possible Chicago’s style guide changed (or at least Wizards’ policy did).
deleted by creator
Someone correct me, but “you” was originally plural. The correct way to address a singular person is “thou”.
Thou are correct.
*art
Okay, if you say so.
Art are correct.
Also singular they is older than singular you. So any idiots who complain that “they” should only be plural should only be using thou/thee for second person singular.
We use ты for second person singular.
Yeah. And
Y'allalso used to be plural. Now it can be singular and we useAll Y'allto clarify when we need people to know we mean plural. Language is bonkers.I have never heard y’all used singular, growing up in the American South. Instead, as I understand it:
-
Y’all: You all, referring to a group of people (Can potentially be a subset of a larger group, e.g. talking to one couple at the table among a group of friends). “When are y’all having the wedding again?”
-
All y’all: shorthand for “all of y’all” Explicitly referring to “all of the members of the group in question”, requiring that at least one member of said group is being addressed by the speaker. The difference is there are no exceptions (apart from exaggeration) “Ain’t a single one of you innocent, all y’all had a hand in this” or “All y’all need to put on your seatbelts, I ain’t going to jail for any of y’all’s comfort”.
-
Roses are red Violets are blue The singular “they” Pre-dates singular “you”
Thou shalt use proper pronouns and not be lazy recycling plural pronouns in the singular. What next, are thou planing to use a singular “we” like inbred royalty?
The singular “they” Pre-dates singular “you”
The same way rights were ore-dated by no rights?
‘older’ is not always ‘better’. Make your point, but don’t hinge it on a false comparison.
The point isn’t to say that the singular they is somehow better than the singular you, it’s to point out that it is not a modern invention. People that dislike usage of the singular they often argue that it is an unnatural change being forced upon the language, when in fact it has been in use for so long that it was used by Shakespeare
Calling people what they ask to be called just doesn’t have to be this difficult.
And yes, his royal lordship Starn, the majestic, that goes for you, too. It’s fine. We’re cool with your chosen name. And I admit, the opera cape absolutely works for you.
And I don’t need to know what genitalia most other people are rocking. That’s none of my business, unless we’re really into each-other, in a very intimate way.
It takes all my willpower not to be get pretty inappropriate every time a government form asks my birth sex:
“Oh! We just met at this office of motor vehicles…I didn’t know you felt that way about me! This is so much to process. I admit there’s a mutual attraction. Of course I feel it too. I’m delighted that you had a special form made up to ask! I’m flattered! Want to grab dinner, and see where this goes?”
Calling people what they ask to be called just doesn’t have to be this difficult.
We in fact do it all the time. It’s just people have gotten used to using names. But it’s not like you were born with a Dave chromosome. Your parents decided to call you Dave, so in the end it’s also just a made up name/sound.
In Finnish language there are no gender specific pronouns only gender neutral one hän/hänen.
They/them still sounds weird to use even if I know it can be used to refer single person. When talking or writing fast I’ll still often accidentally default to using he/him even for females which I then have to correct.
Dear native English speakers, would you mind inventing a new word either for gender-neutral third-person singular pronoun, or one for what “they” mean to foreign English speakers since you are so insisted in differing its meaning from the text books you shipped us decades ago?
English is so inconsistent at this point. Only the third-person pronouns have gender in singular form, the plural form has no gender and now you are telling us the gender-less form can be singular now? How confusing!
English is widespread partly because it has simple alphabet and relatively easy grammar. I don’t mind someone being in LGBT+ group at all, but could you please don’t mess with the language?
Don’t blame native speakers that your textbook is outdated
As the comic shows, “they” (“their,” in this case) was already used as a singular when the gender was unknown. The only change is it’s now also used if the person’s gender is known and isn’t “he” or “she.”
Naw.
Others have addressed some of your other points, but
would you mind inventing a new word either for gender-neutral third-person singular pronoun, or one for what “they” mean to foreign English speakers
We actually have that. Xe / Xem / Xyrs. It isn’t very widely used though, and is generally considered a neo pronoun.
Honestly I don’t really expect it to get mainstream use anytime soon, in part because people are already accused to the singular They / Them / Theirs (except for when a nonbinary person asks to be refered to as such).
There’s more than one option, I for one prefer Elverson which is Ey/Em/Eirs
These people don’t care if it’s grammatically correct. They just don’t like trans people.
deleted by creator
Ok, hear me out, super supportive, but I had an issue when a friend’s husband wanted me to use “their.”
What issue? I fail to see how that impacts you negatively in any way.
No no, hear me out.
So you’re not, in fact, “super supportive” at all then, are you, and are not, in fact, worth hearing out… 🙄
That comment did not imply any of this in the least
