The idea that human personalities and behaviors can be sorted into two simplistic piles or even a scale between two piles is just silly.
There’s no predictive value to it- you can’t objectively classify\quantify people’s ‘vertion’ and then predict behaviors or outcomes based on those classifications, not even statistically from a large sample set because it’s meaninglessly subjective.
People are complex. Someone might appear ‘introverted’ in a social situation they’re unfamiliar with, but in a different setting my appear ‘extroverted’ because they’re very comfortable.
And some will say “social interactions give energy to extro and take it from intro” but what the hell does ‘energy’ mean in that context anyway? If I go to a small party with close friends all talking about sci-fi I’ll enjoy myself all night and feel refreshed, but I’d be exhausted after 30 minutes at a rave and need a week to recover.
And do people migrate between intro-extro throughout their life? In my 20’s I felt compelled to meet and experience new people all the time but now in my mid-40’s I don’t really care and tend to stick to the people I know. Does that mean I turned more introverted at some point? That’s why even as a personality scale it’s nonsense.
It’s all just Myers-Briggs for dummies, which is already for dummies.
The only way it makes sense is as a description of immediate behavior, not of a personality. Someone may be ‘behaving in an introverted way’ but saying that makes them an ‘introvert’ is nonsense because they may go somewhere else and behave in an extroverted way an hour later.
I just find the labels as a useful tool. Descriptive, not prescriptive.
They get across a lot with one word- you get antsy if you get around people too much, of you get antsy if you stay in too much.
I think you’re taking this personally for some reason and you may need to reconsider the media and/or company you’re paying attention to if this is bothering you like this. Maybe even if just for a little while.
Same goes for whenever any use of any labels starts bothering a person- its usually just a symptom of some kind of jargon fatigue.
You said it yourself- you think it all feels like “Pop psychology nonsense.” But do you even need all that pop psychology in your life in the first place?
It’s really not about enjoying or not enjoying social interactions. It’s about your default state. So when I finish work I think “finally some time to spend by myself: learning, reading, gaming, whatever”. When my extrovert friend finishes work they think “finally I can meet with my friends”. I love my friends and I enjoy spending time with them but I do it like once a week and I would be exhausted if I had to spend every evening with them. My extrovert friend rarely spends evening without any company and if they do they will often call someone because not interacting with anyone is just weird to them.
An extrovert trying to understand my people. Challenge Level: Impossible
That’s especially funny because I almost added “This post will probably mostly piss off people who identify as extroverts” because those are usually the ones I hear evangelizing the whole concept of introverts\extroverts.
But I guess it turns out the issue is that people have picked one or the other as part of their identity. And telling people the basis for any part their chosen identity is invalid is never going to go over well.
I don’t think they’re meant to describe someone’s “everywhere all the time” personality. I’ve met and know several people that fit into one or the other.
One friend is completely “alive” at D&D, but quiet and reserved at any other social function, whereas another loves going to concerts, parties, and other social events, but falls asleep trying to play board games.
I don’t think it’s meant to be an end-all, be-all. Just one way to generally categorize personality.
As far as people being complex? Above a certain level, yeah, definitely. But we also have a lot of very low level behavior that’s relatively easy to categorize.
I don’t think it’s meant to be an end-all, be-all. Just one way to generally categorize personality.
That’s more or less how I think about it, except I’d rather use phrase it as ‘categorize behavior’ to emphasize the point that it’s not everywhere all the time. People tend to think of personality as a more fixed attribute but we understand that behaviors can change in the wind.
Do you think it’s nonsense in pop psychology, professional psychology, or both?
I wouldn’t be too surprised to learn the terms had applicable meaning in some clinical settings, though I’d guess that was a world away from anything anyone that personally identifies as introvert or extrovert thinks of the concept. But I’d also guess that they’d agree somewhat with my distinction that that it’s better described as a behavior than a personality- though they’ll probably have more precise terms to apply to that description.
… when used in a medical oriented conversation. Completely legit when describing character, which was the case before everybody started self-labelling like items in a retail shop
which was the case before everybody started self-labelling like items in a retail shop
That’s definitely my beef. If there is a clinical, objective definition and test for intro\extro as traits I’d be interested to know more about it and I’d accept it could have value if applied with rigorous objectivity, but no part of the public conversation about intro\extro is anything but nonsense.
classification is needed for any discussion about anything. sure. we are all individuals and no two are exactly alike. There are reasons though we have clicks and clubs and groups and conventions. extrovert/introvert is just a classification. if you really want to get annoyed go look at disc which is basically introvert/extrovert combined with alpha/beta :)
My point is that it’s only useful as a classification of behavior, not personality or ‘what kind of person you are’. It’s verb not a noun kind of thing.
DISC… yeah that looks like Myers-Briggs corporate astrology stuff. Fortunately I don’t hear a lot of people spitting out their DISC or MB ratings so I only get annoyed by that whenever HR gets a wild hare about it.
lol. i have had it in my corpo email sig because I smile and nod and collect my chexs. I mean I do my job but otherwise don’t make waves and blend in. ish.
Like they just put it on your signature for you? That would infuriate me.
no. I mean I put it in to blend in. I was being a good little simp.
If you aren’t a practiticing psychology researcher, this whole post is pop psychology nonsense. Might as well ask random strangers about dark matter, it’s just as valuable an opinion.
Good thing I didn’t try to post this in ‘Valuable Opinions’ then ;)
But by all means please find me a reputable, practicing psychologist that will explain how to objectively apply introvert\extrovert labels and what value that has for anything.
Like the one I see regularly? Or every single one I’ve seen before them, or the psychology researchers from the study I was in, or my friends in the field, or the hundreds of scientific articles deliniating exactly that and the physiology and psychology behind it? You actually have to look for something before you publicly declare it’s not there.
https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=introversion+and+extraversion
from the study I was in, or my friends in the field
Impressive resume you got there ;)
But which of those studies can show me an objective, reproducible method to classify individuals as introvert\extrovert? And I’m asking sincerely. I’ll accept being corrected that there actually are rigorous clinical descriptors and tests for traits of for introvert\extrovert, though that won’t change my opinion of literally anyone outside of a clinical setting applying those terms.
I enjoy spending time by myself more than I enjoy spending time with other people. Social situations are draining and I avoid them when I can. If I make plans with someone and they have to cancel, it’s usually a relief for me. If that doesn’t make me an introvert I don’t know what else to tell you.
Social situations are draining and I avoid them when I can. If I make plans with someone and they have to cancel, it’s usually a relief for me.
I’d say that’s generally true for me too but I’ve also enjoyed seeing and spending time with old friends AND been relieved when I get to go be alone again. I think that duality is present in everyone and I find it hard to believe anyone has literally never enjoyed the company of another person or ‘gained energy’ from an interaction.
Also I have to wonder how much age has to do with it. I might have said I was an ‘introvert’ as a teen and early 20’s and then found spaces and people that helped me enjoy some parts of social interactions, then later found I’m just slowing down and I go out of my way to spend more time alone. So did I go introvert-extrovert-introvert again or was I always a complex mixture of internal states and behaviors like everyone else is?
I know we had a run-in the other day, over on my stupid-ass Olympics post…but I agree with this post SO FUCKING MUCH.
I mean, not for nothing, but I actually think ALL psychology is nonsense, pop or otherwise.
During the same time that physics (ya know, an actually real branch of science) extended its grasp of nature to prove the existence of atomic, sub-atomic, and quantum particles, as well as the theory of relativity and the Big Bang, what did psychology do?
During that exact same time period, psychology went from Freud’s perverted bullshit, through to the “awareness doesn’t actually exist, lol” behaviorist era, through to a bunch of other debunked, unhelpful, failure-ass theories. And then there was that time when dipshits stuck metal rods into non-consenting patients’ faces and carved up parts of their brains.
Annnnnd, throughout the whole time, LGBTQ people were defined as mentally ill. In case anyone doesn’t know, homosexuality was still classified as a mental illness, up until 1973, according to the DSM manual.
And where are we now? Still nowhere. There still isn’t a really good, unified theory of human psychology to show for all that effort. And all those actual victims.
At the end of the day, I don’t even think this should be surprising, because we’re asking human minds to derive a theory of human minds. I’m pretty sure you can use math to prove that any given system can only analyze other systems that are LESS COMPLEX than itself. Our minds are literally too complex for us to meaningfully study. We should literally, actually stop trying to do it. All we’re doing is producing an endless parade of half-baked, harmful procedures, based on completely incorrect guesses.
If we want an answer to the question of “how do human minds work,” we need to finish developing artificial intelligence. If we produce a system more complex than the human mind, then it WILL be able to analyze the human mind, and deliver meaningful conclusions.
Of course, we probably won’t be able to understand those conclusions, and also the AI might want to destroy us. But at this point, I think we deserve it, as a species. The best thing we could do is bring about a better being and then give up the whole being-a-species game, once and for all.
I think you’re conflagrating what introvertion/extrovertion are in and of themselves with how they are described and used in the Myers-Briggs personality scale. Myers-Briggs is pop psychology. Being introverted or extroverted are just 1 aspect of behavior (do you lose or gain energy when socializing) and isn’t used as a measure of other personality traits someone might have anywhere other than that test.
I think the absolute best way I’ve heard it described is simply: Extroverts get charged up around people, while introverts lose energy around people and need some time by themselves to recharge their batteries before socializing again.
The labels are really a tool to help you understand yourself.
Exactly, as labels are meant to be. Use them if they suit you, don’t bother if it’s not for you.
