- cross-posted to:
- apple_enthusiast@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- apple_enthusiast@lemmy.world
You must log in or register to comment.
The front screen is what no one wants in a cheaper version. Don’t cut back on sound and cameras ffs
Apple should make a virtual headset you can buy in META, then put it on when you are already in a VR setting, except now you can use Apple services with it!
That way it would have zero production cost, be absolutely as useless as it already is, and can be just as overpriced.
It seems like the perfect Apple scheme.
I don’t know why everyone is so negative. The gameplan seems pretty clear to me.
- Make expensive fancy product. This is effectively a “devkit” that companies can use to start experimenting with AR software.
- Make lower cost product. There are now a few decent apps available and early adopters will be willing to buy it to be one the leading edge.
- Now there is a bigger market, leading more companies to be willing to develop apps.
Apple is hoping that this is enough to break the chicken-and-egg cycle. Enough to get a few powerful apps such that more regular consumers will be willing to buy which again increases the addressable market which makes it more attractive to companies.
Yep that’s exactly why they had started the 2 then changed their mind lol. Alllll part of the plan
It’s all 5D chess, just like Elon.
Basically sounds like the Tesla game plan, which was super effective: roadster (which is purely a toy for the rich) and a little later the Model S (practical EV), and then introduce an affordable model.
This implies that eventually people will strap rusty boxes to their head though, so grain of salt with the analogy…
They did something similar with Apple Watch and Apple TV and Home Pod and jt worked out well enough for them.
Rip
You mean they’re doing what everyone said they should have done to begin with - release an affordable consumer product that will in turn attract more developers?
Everyone knew that they would release a cheaper model, and it was always their plan. That’s why it has ‘pro’ in its name.
And my point is that maybe they should have established a market by releasing a cheaper model first.
The only thing I could see myself using it for, is being in bed and watching a movie. I can do that with ar glasses for 300$.
I myself use a 9 US$ gooseneck phone holder that gives me a great tv watching experience in bed. Came across it as a lemmy recommendation and it’s improved the quality of my life much more than some high end gadgets.
To do:
Cheaper headset
Actual controllers
Make it work with PCs
I still don’t understand how Windows got the PC name. A Mac is also a personal computer…
Also, apple isn’t going to make it work with other OSs any more than they have their other products, not sure why you’d even list that.
In case you are wanting the history. IBM actually coined the term PC with their IBM Personal Computers
At the time most computing platforms were incompatible. Software written for a commodore computer wouldn’t work with an apple computer wouldn’t work with an IBM PC.
The IBM PC was popular enough though that people started building “pc compatible” machines. A very popular configuration for this was intel chips with Microsoft DOS. While these machines started out as “pc compatible” after a while the IBM PC wasn’t a big deal anymore so saying “we are compatible with a machine released in 1981” just slowly morphed into “it’s a PC” as shorthand for “intel chipset with Microsoft OS”
Now why didn’t apple get the pc moniker? At the time when the IBM PC launched apple was actively building and selling their own computers and weren’t interested in making them IBM PC clones so they never went out and marketed themselves as “pc compatible” because for the most part they were not.
Thanks for attending my Ted talk
Thanks for the history, very interesting! I still hate how the term is used today and refuse to use it.
Nowadays I mostly think of it in regards to how much control you have over the hardware. If you can Ship of Theseus your way to a completely different machine with completely different specs, that’s a PC to me. If you’re stuck with what you paid for, then it’s something else. A Mac Mini is not a PC in my book, but a Hackintosh is even though it’s the same OS and general hardware architecture.
But that’s just how I use the term.
I still struggle to read personal computer and not think of any phone, laptop, etc as a PC. Hell, a calculator is a rudementary PC.
- Don’t make it out of a solid chunk of aluminium and glass so it weighs a ton and has nothing to balance it out on the back.
Apple has suspended work on the second-generation Vision Pro headset to singularly focus on a cheaper model
That seems very reasonable and like what they probably should’ve been doing all along.
I still don’t understand who the pro was actually for. Everyone who had one said exactly the same thing about it which was they couldn’t understand how to use it productively for anything.
I guess the idea is that it’s an entire imac but in a VR form factor, trouble was they didn’t have anywhere near the app support that you would need to make that idea work
IMHO, it’s a fancy dev kit.
Exactly. Not promoting it as a dev kit was a major failure. This is the kind of product where you CAN’T do without external feedback, not everybody will use one in a clean office (or even one that stands still), not everybody has the same spatial awareness or motor skills, not supporting controllers locks out numerous people with limited hand movements, etc… As a dev kit it could’ve worked much better at getting the kind of feedback they need from devs working on useful AR stuff
The problem with it being a dev kit is that I don’t know what features are and are not going to be on the more consumer model, so I can’t really develop anything for it.
Will the consumer version have the truly excellent depth tracking or will it use the cheaper but more traditional point tracking system, because that will inform my UI decisions. Will it have iris recognition for logins or will I need to build that functionality in, will they please include controllers, will they please fix it so that you can pin things to a location, and not have them close just because you leave that location? I don’t know, as they haven’t communicated anything about it.
The kind of people who would go around driving a Cybertruck with a Vision Pro on their faces and an humane pin strapped on.
“We made a VR games headset, but replaced the games with office related programs, like calenders and notepads”
I’m not sure why they tried this.
I don’t know how far things have come since the aptly named Acer AH101-D8EY, but that was the last time I tried to be “productive” in VR and it was absolutely not working.
Companies have been pushing VR so long now. I’ll say that I think the tech is cool and the idea is cool, but I will literally never use them.
I can’t wear them while working as I am in meetings 99% of the time.
I would not wear them in my free time, as I do not want to disassociate from my wife and cats.
My issue is, aside from gaming, I’m not interacting with the content or data in any meaningful, improved way.
VR for real life is just a series of flat two dimensional screens, usually with a novelty background of a waterfall.
Yeah, I think it could be useful for CAD or 3D art (with proper software) but I can’t think of many other jobs where it would be all that helpful.
I have found my headset useful for work, when working from home and I don’t do camera on meetings anyway.
At home it’s pretty nice, and since my ears are open I can actually talk, so my wife actually prefers it over me wearing headphones. But all things in moderation, I wouldn’t wear it constantly.
Despite being a huge fan of the concept, I still couldn’t go for Apple’s headset, it’s heavy, it’s expensive, and lack of controllers are all deal breakers. The Quest 3 is lighter, has good controllers, and is more affordable. It may not have the displays as nice as Vision, but that doesn’t make up for the rest of the stuff.
It’s absolutely phenomenal for gaming or vr “experiences” (basically movies made specifically for vr). But the corpos are really hellbent on making everyone use it for meetings for some fucking reason. Which is truly the lamest, most unnecessary use of this tech.
Aren’t the meetings pushed as one of the basic function of these? But I guess it only makes sense if most of the participants use them and software has the support.
If most people have them? Ok, I’ll tell all my clients to get a pair 😂
I would only use VR in racing, flight sim, or space sim games. probably once a couple of months after the initial excitement.
I love VR. So I use it for gaming maybe once a week, for 1-2 hours, usually as an activity with my SO so we can switch who’s playing each “round” depending on the game. That’s the maximum I find fun instead of tiring. I can’t see using it for long periods or for work, that sounds like a nightmare.
I watched a YouTuber telling something like:
“I cannot believe Apple’s biggest premium VR tech wants to change the world… And they are advertising it with… Fucking spreadsheets”
I am paraphrasing ofc, but the meaning was that this could have been a pretty good toy for everyone, but they are trying to sell it as a work-buddy thingy, yeah seeing those spreadsheets focus was kinda dystopian (like in Ready Player One where they are caged doing work or something hah), watching movies in crazy sites yeah, that was what would have sell it more for me, and other ppl, if it wasn’t crazily expensive.
It’s not for gaming and it’s not for porn… what were they thinking?
If it fails it is totally on them.
Samsung gear vr is the best vr /s
no one wants to wrap themselves in a head cocoon
Speak for yourself.
That’s what they were SO close to getting. Solutions like Xreal Air and Viture are just much more comfortable and less isolating.
Was about to comment this. Those products are actually usable versions of apples vr. And they can be used with any device. Apples use case is so narrow that other companies overtook them out of the gate.
Viture looks neat, still missing some things I want to see but they seem to understand what this kind of device needs
Curious from your perspective what you’d like to see. From mine, Viture and Xreal are nearly perfect, with the exception of Xreal failing to be supportive of open APIs.
I like that the viture has dimming, lens adjustment, an optional android based neckband device, and miracast is neat, etc.
If all you want is a compact screen that’s pretty good, and I’m considering getting one, but I want to see some more stuff like integration with your other devices. I see they have remote desktop stuff for gaming, etc, but I’m thinking a bit deeper integration like using a phone app to relay notifications like a HUD, and I want a bit more spatial awareness (might need to rely on stuff like radio beacons for that like UWB). The navigation also seems to rely on either your phone, buttons on the neckband, or a paired 3rd party controller (no official wireless controller), you could make it a bit easier with something that’s maybe keychain sized?
Imagine if the headset could piggyback on your phone’s AR support + UWB direction finding to let your phone calculate where it is relative to the world, then relay it to the headset which calculate its offset to tell where IT is in the world, it would immediately make Google Maps Live View infinitely more immersive (and overlays don’t need to be perfect, just need to not drift by too many degrees). It would probably be annoying to have to keep scanning with your phone to keep the map accurate though 🤷
Everyone I’ve talked to that has used a Vision Pro has said it’s an incredible piece of magical technology, but it’s utterly useless.
It’s literally just Apple flexing.
DARPA is going to have to play with this for a while before it gets to a point where it’s actually useful to the general public. And they are playing with it.
Used or owned? I own one and bought several for my company and they’re not useless at all. They’re just limited in the AR/VR experiences you can do right now. As a computer, productivity, and production device, it’s far from useless.
Blue Steel Look intensifies
Huh?
Just a light hearted nod to your username
I meant no offense
You know… I totally forgot that I set that as my display name. No offense taken, obviously. I use a third-party Lemmy client so it never shows me that. 🤷♂️
What client do you use? I use sync, usernames are pretty prominent here
Voyager. It shows actual usernames and not display names. You’re seeing my display name, not my username.
“Hey look what we could do at six times the price point” isn’t a flex, it’s stupidity.
Like why not just release Apple brand Skis, or team up with Nike and make some shoes, or Jewelry if you want to do high priced stuff rich idiots pay for.
It’s a flex because the vision pro has the best optics and display technology ever made. It’s stupid because it has no use. It’s not a flex because it’s expensive, it’s expensive because it’s a flex, if that makes sense.
but it’s utterly useless.
That imo has been the issue with VR/AR for a while now. The Hardware as you said is pretty good by now and looking at something like the quest even afforable. What’s lacking is content and use cases.
Smartphones had an easier time being adopted, since it was just moving from a larger to a smaller screen. But VR/AR actually needs a new type of content to make use of it’s capabilities. And there you run into a chicken/egg problem, where no one is putting in the effort (and vr content is harder to produce) without a large user base.
Just games and some office stuff (that you can do just as well on a regular pc) aren’t cutting it. You’d need stuff like every major sport event being broadcast with unique content, e.g. formula one with the ability to put yourself into the driver seat of any car.
When the HTC Vive and Oculus Rift first came out, the rift didn’t yet have full-room support. You had to sit facing the base station and use a video game controller. Meanwhile, on Vive, you could stand up, walk around, and manipulate the world with two tracked remotes.
One pro-con comparison I read at the time actually listed needing to walk around the room as a con against HTC. That is the whole point of VR.
I think the core issue is that every piece of new technology so far has helped us get lazier. People used to walk around an office, then they sat at a computer, now they carry their computer with them and do things from the couch.
Nobody wants to get up to do things if they can avoid it, and that’s the only real benefit VR/AR provides.
Meanwhile, on Vive, you could stand up, walk around, and manipulate the world with two tracked remotes.
Issue is that if I remember correctly the vive was an outside-in concept that required base stations to be setup. So you lose the cable, but are still bound by location. And importantly also needs a pc aswell. So still far away from standalone.
I think the core issue is that every piece of new technology so far has helped us get lazier. People used to walk around an office, then they sat at a computer, now they carry their computer with them and do things from the couch.
Nobody wants to get up to do things if they can avoid it, and that’s the only real benefit VR/AR provides
But I think VR/AR could make us lazier:
For VR the promise is immersion. You get to experience a concert, sport event, unique experience or exotic place from your own living room. And for many of that it is just fine to sit on a couch and still have a benefit from the technology.
For AR i think it’s a bit more productivity focused. For example less need to train personel, if you can project every instruction into their field of view.
Issue is that if I remember correctly the vive was an outside-in concept that required base stations to be setup
But that wasn’t the complaint levied. They were literally complaining about needing to walk around.
And for many of that it is just fine to sit on a couch and still have a benefit from the technology.
But everyone knows the people watching at home on traditional 2D TV get the best view. Zooms on the players/performers, slow-mo recap, etc. I can’t imagine the nausea of having your entire field of view warped across the court to see every special angle. Not to mention, until whatever VR app has a plug in for every thing you’d want to do on your phone while you’re watching the game, you’re stuck paying 100% of your attention to the sport.
Hell, even the people at the concert or sporting event spend half their time on their phone.
until whatever VR app has a plug in for every thing you’d want to do on your phone
Isn’t that the big difference with Apple’s visionOS vs the other VR headsets? It’s basically iPadOS, where you can run multiple apps at the same time and move windows around, without anything needing to know what else is going on, and everything uses the standard window and widgets toolkits. Unlike the Meta Quest, which is basically SteamOS where you’re switching between Unity games that take over the whole device and they all have to re-invent the world with slightly different controls and everything.
If you are really super deep into the ecosystem and the AR pass through is that good, then I can see it working. On Oculus, I often find myself peering through the gap by my nose to see whatever notification or whatnot on my phone. Apple Vision can fix that.
Though you still have to contend with the comfort factor. It’s a lot to wear on your face when you’re supposed to be casually enjoying content for hours at a time. Heaven forbid you care about how your hair looks.
Volumetric video for sports is interesting because it offers VR users the option to ‘be there’, but the provider can also offer desktop/mobile users the option to control their own virtual camera. I can kinda see it taking off in a few years when more cheaper/lighter headsets with good passthrough arrive.
Removed by mod
There are tons of excellent VR games that aren’t flight sims. As an example, Vertigo 2 is an excellent first person shooter and Blade and Sorcery is an excellent fighting game.
Holy shit that guy’s whole profile got nuked for some reason.
This may be true for AR, but it is emphatically not true for VR. There are dozens of amazing games that are extremely addictive and fun. Steam VR is no joke, it’s a very solid store these days.
There are dozens of amazing games
…and 99% of them are tech demos.
Compare it to an industry that publishes over 10 thousand games every year, on Steam alone. Then you start to understand how VR is just a niche hobbyist toy. Not a mainstream product. Making VR experiences is several times harder while also aiming at a minuscule tiny market. VR is perhaps today on par to where general computing and gaming was in the 70s. Neat concept, not enough use cases and product development, still way too cumbersome and expensive.
That would actually be super interesting. Yeah, let me switch between cams on cars, pit crews, stands, helicopter etc., with real sound where possible. Hell yeah.
You’ve nailed it. Ordinarily, Apple is good at throwing its weight (money) around to make things like this happen, but it seems like there weren’t many takers this go-round, so we just got an overpriced, beautiful and fascinating paperweight.
That’s why the biggest use case for VR has been gaming and metaverses. It’s a ready-to-go thing that adapts well, but it’s certainly not for everyone. For my part, I’m saving up for a PS VR2, because it’s adding PC support soon and I already own a PS5 as well. Far, far cheaper than Apple’s device, and likely quite good still.
Ordinarily, Apple is good at throwing its weight (money) around to make things like this happen, but it seems like there weren’t many takers this go-round, so we just got an overpriced, beautiful and fascinating paperweight.
Yeah normally Apple is maybe the only company that has the scale and control over their ecosystem to force rapid adoption. But this was clearly not a consumer product aimed at capturing the masses, but more or less a dev kit sold to anyone willing to shell out the price.
The PS VR2 sounds nice, but feels like it is only aimed at the gaming market and even there sony only captures a fraction.
The Quest as a standalone device imo really would have the best shot at mass market adoption, but Facebook rightfully has an image problem. And despite spending so much on development doesn’t seem to create any content or incentivize others to do so.
Apple has a long history of insanely expensive ( but quite high quality) displays.
There are photographers and design professionals out there, but it’s pretty niche market. That’s what the Vision Pro seems to be aimed at. But it’s not very good for mouse based design, and harder to trust in the usual proofing/editing environment. Plus wearing it for an 8-10 hour shift is never going to happen.
You are right, Apple also has some legit professional staff. And if the person using it gets paid a lot, then a one time hardware purchase becomes negligible.
Accurate fine motor control and even basic stuff like typing does seem not quite fleshed out, so that is indeed an issue. But I don’t think it’s a deal breaker that you can’t do long shifts with it, since you’d probably only use it for certain tasks.
Even more of a niche, but I could see it for something like architects. Both for work and to maybe even present to clients.
But they’re not at all designed for use as shared devices, not even proper local multiuser support (any devs who want that has to craft it all by themselves from scratch), so collaborative work or simultaneous display and interaction doesn’t work well with them. In fact it would be easier to just let a client see 3D stuff on an ipad with an AR app.
This was my feeling after seeing it too. Architects also love to see models and more tangible things, even printouts in my experience.
Offering a fully rendered environment sounds amazing but someone would have to do a lot lore work at the office before presenting it to the client because it would look less complete than simple foam models can.
It may be useful for investor presentations for really large projects (Saudis or UAE style projects), but again, those are pretty narrow audiences and so expensive that bespoke displays could be viable.
Yeah, that’s why I mentioned upcoming PC support for PS VR2.
Yeah, I’m pretty convinced we need to be able to make the headsets lighter, and put more compute in an accessory and have the headset just do low complexity stuff like low latency last-millisecond angle adjustments to frames as you move.
Have you checked out the bigscreen headset? It’s only doing upscaling to overcome the resolution limitations of displayport 1.4, and the form factor might be to your liking.
Shame about the lens glare effect, but otherwise, pretty cool!
To be fair, they have a similar problem with iPad, but they can flog those at a price point where many people are happy to grab one to see how they can make it fit.
The overarching opinion of iPads is that they’re just big iPhones, and because they can share apps, it took a long time to get to where we are now, where most iPad apps are actually developed for it. But ultimately, they’re still iPhone apps, just rejigged to take advantage of the bigger screen. As someone with an iPad and a MacBook, who’s had a really good go at making an iPad my main computer, the platform just isn’t there. So if I do use it, it’s always in the knowledge that what I’m doing is probably easier on my Mac.
VisionPro feels the same to me. Sure, I could surround myself with work, but pinching and tapping nothing in the air has zero tactility and is far less satisfying than clicking a mouse and typing on a keyboard. And comes with having to wear a headset. So in the end, most people will just do the work on their Mac.
It’s quite predictable. This is the same story that’s been told over and over: “it’s really cool but not really practical”. Pick it up and play with it for a few weeks, then get bored and never touch it again. iVR certainly moved VR forward but it didn’t solve any of the fundamental problems that VR has had since its inception.
VR has 1 practical application, and that is gaming, and Apple has very little in the world of gaming outside of super basic 2D games.
VR in its current form, I agree, has only one real use.
But when improved upon and made smaller, I could easily see it being used to watch TV or similar. I’ve done that on a few flights and it was decent.
Not to mention, VR is a necessary step to get to AR, and AR has many more applications. Screens with anything anywhere, for one. Imagine a computer with one monitor, but numerous virtual monitors. Or a TV on your ceiling.
It’s iterative. Gaming just happens to be the current driver.
Human will immediately adopt anything they can carry with them. But humans have a very strong repulsion to adopting anything they have to wear or in general have permanently on them. It is uncomfortable, it is hot, it is annoying, it is visible, it is a wall between them and the world. There are people who don’t wear their correction glasses because they don’t like having something on their faces. There are people who don’t even withstand contact glasses. There are deaf people who refuse to use hearing implants. Wrist watches are tolerated because they are more peripheral and easier to remove.
This is a way more fundamental flaw on the concept of VR than technology, applications, software availability, etc. You can make VR as tiny and practical as contact glasses and people will still refuse to adopt it.
The deaf who refuse implants tend towards the “there’s nothing wrong with me why are you trying to fix me” mentality, not the “I don’t want to hear because it looks weird.”
And adoption of eyeglasses is likely higher than most other peripherals. Not to mention, putting in contacts is a chore and requires a little planning, while putting on glasses can be done in seconds in virtually any situation.
Yes, you will get people who refuse to adopt VR/AR. We still have people in the world who refuse to adopt electricity, but if you had asked people 30 years ago if they would carrot a phone around in their pocket you’d have been laughed out of the room… yet here we are.
I use mine daily… primarily as a monitor for my laptop.
Now you might think that’s dumb, but I can go sit outside in the backyard, park, beach, coffee shop, wherever and work on a big, totally private, crisp and clear, glare-free anywhere monitor. I can bring it to the in-laws or on trips and even use it as a monitor for my Steam Deck. Or I can lay in bed or on the sofa or on a lawn chair and use the Steam Link app to play games from my PC.
Taken purely as a private, portable, omni-monitor, it’s absolutely worth the price for me.
As an AR/MR/XR device, it has some MAJOR software problems. Honestly, it makes sense they’d pause hardware development… it’ll be a couple years before there’s anything worth upgrading and they have a long way to go on UX, gestures, inputs, and even basic real-time object recognition and tracking. I bought mine knowing it was a Development Kit and planning to use it to get ahead on AR development experience, but I hit major roadblocks so frequently I’ve just about given up on every interesting use-case I went into this with.
VisionOS 2 is a baby step forward, but Apple has a long, long way to go before it makes sense for regular people. Heck, they aren’t even including all the cool new AI features in VisionOS 2, and it’s the one device that could benefit from that stuff the most.
So, yeah… it can still be worth it to certain people with specific use-cases, but I think it’ll be a solid 5 years before the software and hardware can reach a “normal consumer” level of quality and value.
Do you mind sharing if you feel fatigue if you use it as a monitor for long durations. I feel headphone fatigue with my ears getting too warm very quickly for example. Anything of that sort physically, and how about eye strain?
Two part answer: yes and no.
Default Straps: Bad
The included straps leave all the weight at the front of your head, so you will feel neck strain as a result of the constant weight imbalance. This is a common problem with HMDs… it’s not the weight, but the fact that it’s not balanced, forcing your neck muscles to compensate. Additionally, the design relies on facial pressure to keep the HMD in place… and while the “light shield” is not uncomfortable, it’s still pressure.
Aftermarket Straps: Good
HOWEVER, we are starting to see some creative after-market solutions. I am currently using a BOBOVR M3 Mini with some 3D-printed AVP adapters. To fix the weight balance problem I put adhesive tire weights on the back as a counter-balance (same thing I did with PSVR2). With this solution, it’s infinitely more comfortable than either standard strap… no neck strain, dramatically reduced face pressure… I can go all day. You can get the 3d printed adapters on Etsy, if you’re curious.
As for the eye strain/vision: Ordinarily I need reading glasses for normal things, but on the AVP I don’t need anything. There is no eye strain and everything is crisp and sharp and clear… without any Rx inserts.
This is the reason I want one. I really want to take a long haul flight with one paired to my wireless keychron with Mx blue switches, and proceed to code for the entire flight.
… long haul flight… mx blue…
I’m not sure if you’re joking but it’s hilarious either way.
I can’t hear you over the din of the kali box whites and the screaming child, what did you say?
The price immediately put this product into the grave. They should take out all the useless features like the eye passthrough, or the bizarre face scanning, if it’ll only ever be used for calls. If this were to be used in a gaming scenario, sort of like what the PSVR2 does, that’d be a whole different conversation
Note that suspends != cancelled and it’s just the “Pro”, with a cheaper model allegedly in the works.
We’ll see where a cheaper model lands in terms of price, but it’s very clear now that $3500+ isn’t really the price range where most people buy something out of curiosity. Because let’s face it: the Vision (Pro) still lacks a “killer app” for the masses.
My impression of the Vision Pro was that it was built and priced for developers to buy and expense and then build VR apps with it. That way when the consumer version comes out there’s stuff in the app store.
Have they built apps for it yet? I was going to get one but then it was stupidly expensive, was only available in the US, and would require a Mac for development not just for code compiling. To like many I didn’t bother with it. Even if I could have imported it.
