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So in short, in the 433 cases, 12 of them is stop by good guy with gun and 42 of them is stop by good guy with massive balls.
So by the statistic provided we should give everyone massive balls instead of gun to stop gun violence.
I wish we could win this argument with logic, but I’m certain the fanatics will immediately latch onto the narrative that guns are being used by good guys already, but we obviously need more guns and less restrictions on them them to get those numbers up.
With Republicans, any fact against them is either ignored or bastardized to say the opposite of what it actually says.
Yeah, there’s rarely any logical sense being made because to them gun is a right, not privileges, and once privileges turn into right it take a dictator to take that away.
But then again, jailing people in shitty prison where most right are taken away is a okay 🤷
Oh wow, I missed this. That’s a fantastic insight to pull out of this.
12 of them is stop by good guy with gun and 42 of them is stop by good guy with massive balls.
No. There is nothing to imply that the 42 people didn’t have a gun, just that they didn’t shoot the attacker. That part seems fishy.
Oh yeah, I’m sure any of these cases were someone stopping to hold an active shooter at gunpoint and that somehow working out for them. Or maybe they used their gun as a melee weapon. Or maybe the attackers were subdued by being talked down over their common love of guns. Or maybe the active shooter ran out of ammo and came up to the good guy with a gun to get some more, at which point the good guy revealed they were actually tricking them into lowering their guard and put them into a headlock. Or maybe some other far-fetched bullshit that’ll let me equivocate over the fact that “good guys with guns” don’t do shit in the grand scheme of things.
Jeez, that’s a lot of words you needed to make a clown out of yourself, just because you are pissed by objective fact.
I think you’re pissed at the objective fact that 12/433 is fucking nothing and your “good guy with a gun” argument is a pathetic farce, so you’re trying muddy the waters by shifting the argument to a ridiculous, unfounded, unfalsifiable notion that any of the 42 subduers might’ve had literally anything to do with “good guys” having firearms.
I think you’re pissed at the objective fact that 12/433 is fucking nothing and your “good guy with a gun” argument
There is nothing in what I said that would imply what side of “good guy with a gun” argument I am on and there is nothing in the data that says anything about whether the 42 people had a gun.
My point is this is terrible and confusing representation of the data, as is often the case in any “data is beautiful” community.
But keep kicking around mad that the version that supports your narrative is not the only possible one :D
Yeah, so terrible and confusing that they didn’t mention guns in branches that don’t have anything to do with guns outside of a gun fetishist’s fanfiction.
So, I can imagine someone with a gun menacing the attacker at gunpoint and forcing them to surrender. No shots fired.
But the data doesn’t include this for bystanders. Maybe that’s because it doesn’t happen in real life, or maybe they muddied the watters. We can’t know because we can’t see the data they used to make this graphic.
branches that don’t have anything to do with guns
Branch that doesn’t involve shooting the attacker.
Keep trying. You will not get there, but at least you tried.
They could have also talked them out of it, which still takes balls
True, they didn’t specify whether in that 42 cases the citizen does have a gun but did not fire, just aiming and intimidate. However the data did split between
shot firedshot at the attacker(no mention hit or miss) vs subdued, not killed vs subdued, and also there’s a mention of the attacker surrender, so i assume “subdued” mean the attacker did not surrender but forced to give up whatever they’re doing.
So in most cases the bad guy with a gun is stopped by a bad guy with a gun (himself).
The Hitler strategy, classic.
Right.
- That means “good guy with gun” argument is wrong
- That means mental health intervention can prevent a much larger proportion of these tragedies
I read “The police shot the attacker 98 times” with a different interpretation at first lol.
“sprinkle some crack on 'em. Open and shut case Johnson!”
With average cop accuracy that’d probably exhaust their armory’s ammo supply
Lucky they busted old Billy and his one pot plant, and seized all his cash. That will refill the sheriff coffers.
I agree with the point this is trying to make, but I don’t think it does its job.
Like, the whole argument from the ‘good guy with a gun’ crowd is about stopping them early. You’d need to cross reference each of these catagories with ‘how many people did the mass shooter kill’. And, this would really only be a strong argument vs the ‘good guy with a gun’ point if the ‘shot by bystander’ result had no fewer average deaths.
Additionally, it’s easy to clap back with ‘well, yeah, our society doesn’t have enough “good people” trained with guns, that’s why it’s only 5%!’
Again, I don’t agree with those points, it’s just that this chart is pretty bad at presenting an argument against them.
Also, the data needs to include how many people are accidentally shot by guns through improper usage and storage.
From the numbers I have seen, far more children are killed accidentally by good-guy-guns then they are saved by those very same guns
We need good kids with guns to shoot the bad kids with guns!?
You should see the data for people improperly using cars or medications or alcohol. Pretty scary stuff, I think everything should be illegal.
it’s easy to clap back with ‘well, yeah, our society doesn’t have enough “good people” trained with guns, that’s why it’s only 5%!’
I agree. It’s pathetic how shit arguments that make no actual sense are allowed to fly by millions of people.
Cause many people don’t want their beliefs challenged. They want to live without accepting facts, or even regardless of facts.
Its the culture war mentality.
“Our idea would work, if the damn Wokes didn’t stop us all from having guns at all times!”
Its always the reason why ‘their ideas don’t work’; cause their opponents aren’t ‘letting them’
I think it also misses a special case, where a active shooting would have happened, but a ‘good guy with a gun’ stopped it before a death toll occurred by either holding the shooter at gunpoint or shooting them.
This would likely be a rare case that would be much harder to quantify but you know it will be argued it’s needed for that case.
That is covered in this graphic as subdued by bystander, it’s a small amount and they include cases where people didn’t subdue with gun.
They don’t stop a shorter before it happens. It’s not a scenario that exists. If you shoot someone before they draw their weapon to shoot, your the active shooter.
Okay, so I’m not the only one who read “shot the attacker 98 times” and for a split second imagined this scenario where 131 times, the attacker was shot a gratuitous and strangely precise number of times, right?
The worst part is the scenario is mildly believable knowing our police force.
Guns have really improved since the year 131.
The Aelia Capitolina PD were fucking loose cannons, man.
He’s dead jim
No, I came here, looking for that exact comment
This one’s only counting active mass shooters. When it’s still a lesser shooting with under 4 victims, the odds of a vigilante rando with a gun - that is, a citizen packin’ heat and not a cop off the clock - stopping the violence is about 1 in 7000.
So, once a year in America.
There are two different categories: “active shooter” and “mass shooting”.
An “active shooter” has strict definitions and is tracked by the FBI. These are the events depicted in this graph. An active shooter is someone trying to kill people at random in a public place. The number of casualties is irrelevant. A few years back a guy tried to attack a courthouse in Texas and was killed by a cop before he even got a shot off. That still counts as an active shooter.
A “mass shooting” has no single definition, and media and government organizations that use the term set their own parameters. Many of them define it as “four or more people killed or injured”, regardless of circumstances.
The problem with the term “mass shooter” (and the reason why the FBI doesn’t use it) is that it’s overly broad. Guy goes nuts and kills his family before offing himself? Mass shooting. Robocop shoots four guys in the dick? Mass shooting.
EDIT: It’s worth noting that the linked source clarifies that the graph shows all active shooter incidents between the year 2000 and 2021. This throws off your calculation significantly.
Don’t forget when cops shoot the good guy with a gun!
Here are a few I could find quickly. There’s at least one more that I just happen to recall that didn’t come up because I can’t seem to remember where it happened. I think it was more recent than any of these. And I’m quite sure there are many more than that, this was just the most time I was willing to spend googling at the moment.
https://www.bet.com/article/eokrmr/black-man-kaun-green-disarm-shooter-shot-by-police
https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/11/12/good-guy-with-a-gun-comes-to-rescue-police-kill-him/
This is about that stupid argument against gun regulation.
What cops do is a different issue.
It is, however, one of the outcomes, and is not represented. I’m not demanding it should be added, but I think it makes the “Good guy with a gun” argument even weaker.
No fucking way I’m pulling out my gun if I think there’s a >0 possibility Police are on the scene. Now I have to not only worry about taking care of the bad guy, but also about being shot to death by police.
How many of those 12 citizens that stopped the attacker had that happen too?
Personally I don’t think it’s worth sacrificing the clarity of the image with even more rare specifics.
Well out of 12, there were 4 posted when the good guy with a gun dies. That isn’t including any of the ones we don’t know about, but that would be a 33% that you would die if you are a good guy with a gun and you “save the day.”
Man, it’s just a point of discussion. I literally said I’m not demanding it should be added.
And, in the examples I gave, at least two of them did stop the attacker before being killed by police.
The bottom line is, people who feel safer with a gun than with the right to see a doctor, are not mature adults with a healthy sense of rational fear.
Statistically, we need more bad guys with guns, to stop themselves.
And here my friends is why it is important to learn to interpret data, because by the numbers, you are correct.
I feel like if police arrive on scene, they’re probably shooting whoever has a gun, “good guy” or “bad guy.” Cops seem pretty jumpy. Perhaps if we could make the good guys and bad guys wear differently colored hats?
Cops seem pretty jumpy
Come on, it’s not like a cop would yell “SHOTS FIRED” because of a falling acorn and proceed to empty his clip, would it?
Not just empty his clip, but also fatally wounded the person he was transporting at the time. He thought that the guy in the backseat, having already been patted down twice, handcuffed and detained; had a gun.
This was definitely a reasonable amount of anxiety for a state-sponsored bully to have /s
In the link it specifically states the person wasn’t harmed (somehow). Unless there was a new development in the story this is false. ACAB and all that but we can’t spread misinformation.
Either I’m misremembering or one of the things I’ve seen on it was wrong then. I watched this video earlier this week and I thought I remembered seeing body cam footage of them actually going to check on the guy after the shooting and the dude was dead in the backseat
This was basically the active shooter training I had to attend when I worked at a big office. Even if you’re a “good guy with a gun” when the officials, armed site security or police, roll in they have no idea and you run a huge risk of being assumed to be the aggressor.
Hell, they have a tendency to shoot each other, too. Cops shooting cops and cops shooting security guards are both things that happen.
Uvalde cops be like:
He also violated the dress code, so we waited to let him get it right. Shooters have this one obligation goddamit.
Live action team fortress 2
Sooo technically most of the time a “Bad guy with a gun” is stopped by a “Bad guy with a gun”.
That’s why you should make sure they all have access to guns.
Guys with no guns that think it’s immature that several children die from frail men with ego issues every day:
The really sad thing about this graph is the fact that 433 active shootings barely covers half a year
The really crazy thing about the graph is that there are 433 fucking datapoints!
Even crazier, the graph is two years old.
It’s the kids that are the problem, not the assault weapons. Every kid should be strapped. That would solve all problems. That and tariffs. We can get that number up to a 1000. 1000 is better than 433.
Hoo-rah! USA!
Wow, 12/433 “good guy with a gun. That’s higher than I expected! However you still need to compare to deaths caused by “careless guy with gun” plus “scared/angry guy with gun”, which includes the latest school shooting and is much much higher
Also: This chart only shows what happened to the attacker. It doesn’t give you a picture of the innocent people on the scene shot by cops, the cops shot by cops, the “good guy with a gun” who shoots another good guy with a gun, and so on. 12/433 may be accurate, but by the time you deduct points for innocent deaths caused by people with guns on the scene, you’re creeping back down to zero again.
If not everyone would have guns it would probably be a lot less than 433 active shootings in the same timeframe 😅. The 12 would go to 0 quick. But the 433 would decrease a lot more than 12 🥳
I’d also like to point out …. While the usual argument is that criminals would still have guns, many shootings like this are perpetrated by people who weren’t criminals. While the parent had poir judgement and failed their supervisory responsibility, as far as I know the kid in this latest shooting g had a “legal” gun.
While criminals with guns are certainly a problem, better gun control and mental health resources could prevent an outsized number of deaths, injuries, trauma. And don’t forget the family of the perpetrator: most other possible outcomes would be better for them than what happened
this doesn’t include times where the good guy was pressure for the bad guy to not attempt it. There’s a reason why shootings in schools are popular, there’s only 1 or 2 armed people there compared to the 1,000+ kids.
Let’s also keep in mind your average gun owner is not owning/carrying to stop a mass shooting. They are using them for self defense, especially night stand guns. If someone’s breaking into my house, I’m not calling the police and hiding hoping they get there in time. I’m defending my family myself, at that exact moment
But that’s kind of a problem. I don’t see how your weapon can be useful for self defense in this case while also being properly secured by a responsible owner. Maybe pairing it with an alarm system or dog can get you enough warning to do both
They make quick access safes which can be mounted on or near your bed, so instead of leaving a loaded gun in a drawer where anyone can get it, it’s in a locked safe with either a fingerprint or button combo unlock. The safe can be opened in seconds by someone who knows what they are doing but would otherwise keep the loaded weapon secure.
Good luck getting to it when you already have the attacker standing over you.
That’s not the point. If they are already standing over you then you would be dead before you wake up. But we should never act like that is the only scenario possible
“We?”
It’s a word that in this moment means “you and I”
What about the times the good guy with a gun is shot by the police?
The fact that there are 433 data points means it’s not working
