- cross-posted to:
- france@jlai.lu
- cross-posted to:
- france@jlai.lu
In early December, images circulated worldwide showing dozens of Palestinian men in the city of Beit Lahiya, in the northern Gaza Strip, who were stripped to their underwear, kneeling or sitting hunched over, then blindfolded and put into the back of Israeli military trucks like cattle. The vast majority of these detainees were civilians with no affiliation to Hamas, Israeli security officials later confirmed, and the men were taken away by the army without notifying their families of the detainees’ whereabouts. Some of them never returned.
+972 Magazine and Local Call spoke with four Palestinian civilians who appeared in these photos, or were arrested near the scene and taken to Israeli military detention centers, where they were held for several days or even weeks before being released back to Gaza. Their testimonies — along with 49 video testimonies published by various Arabic media outlets of Palestinians arrested in similar circumstances in recent weeks in the northern districts of Zeitoun, Jabalia, and Shuja’iya — indicate systematic abuse and torture by Israeli soldiers against all of the detainees, civilians and combatants alike.
According to these testimonies, Israeli soldiers subjected Palestinian detainees to electric shocks, burned their skin with lighters, spat in their mouths, and deprived them of sleep, food, and access to bathrooms until they defecated on themselves. Many were tied to a fence for hours, handcuffed, and blindfolded for most of the day. Some testified to having been beaten all over their bodies and having cigarettes extinguished on their necks or backs. Several people are known to have died as a result of being held in these conditions.
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It’s crazy these israelis are acting like literal Nazi concentration camp guards.
Treating all their captives like sub-humans and going on a maximum level bully powertrip by making them do dehumiliating things or else they will torture them even till death.
Fuck israel. Nazi pieces of shit.
I mean, we could all see this behavior prior to this latest conflict. So many videos of IDF gleefully beating down / gassing / shoving guns in faces of clearly civilians on their own property, on religious sites, on public streets, etc.
That’s true, but this time they’re rounding up innocent people and openly put them into concentration camps.
All that’s left is increasing the pace by building gas chambers and giant open fires to pile bodies on.
They’ve been doing that for decades. This is nothing new, it’s just in the public eye now.
Why should they bother with outdated gas chambers when there is a free inflow of innumerous artillery shells, strike jets, tank shells, rockets and such for all that time. Just hurl the free boomball and don’t worry about anything.
Yeah, one of the reasons Nazis resorted to gas chambers was that they needed all the ammo to fight a war.
Soon they’ll have a very original idea to win their righteous war, an idea they’ll call the final solution
Every nation has their own Nazis.
Every nation had their own Nazi’s. We’re not supposed to repeat that.
The Holocaust was not a manual.
I wish we as humankind could learn from past mistakes. What I meant was I think in every nation, there’s a number of people who are born or raised capable of doing Nazi shit or having a nazi mindset or opinions. I don’t think we can change this fact. We need to build social mechanisms to make it hard or impossible for the nazis among us to get mainstream. But overall, I don’t think it’s surprizing that any nation has a tendency to genocide. It’s there in human nature and people as groups are much more stupid and harder to regulate than individuals.
More fucking war crimes. Anyone defending this is defending genocide.
Anyone voting for Genocide Joe is directly endorsing this.
Good luck with genocide Trump… If you think he’d give two shits you’re kidding yourself
They didn’t mentioned trump in their post.
Cool so vote for someone who doesn’t endorse genocide.
Oh gee I love splitting the votes between democrat nominee and a leftist nominee. Since I love doing this trump wins because there’s no ranked choice voting and trump gets enough votes! Wahoo!
Solution.
You also vote for the leftist nominee.
Why is it time and time again that leftists are the ones who have to abandon their ethics to back your candidates?
America is nearly in the full grasp of fascism because you keep choosing the lesser of two evils instead of not choosing evil.
Such as?
Damn not one person in America doesn’t support genocide.
Our choices are an insurrectionist who wants to overturn American democracy and turn it into a dictatorship, a genocide supporter who is pretty good otherwise, or a nepotistic vaccine denier, a.k.a supporter of genocide of Americas via COVID. At this point I’d vote for anyone pro-choice, pro-democracy, and anti-genocide - regardless of party. Too bad no one running currently fits those criteria.
Damn, literally nobody.
Personally I’d say Cornell West is your best running choice, but really if you tried I’m sure you could find someone better.
Good job you’re already defending Genocide.
Says the Tankie. Your comment history is damning.
Oh no the horrors. My comment history condemning genocide! I’m really ashemed of it.
Let’s go Genocide Joe! You do it! You can kill at least 20.000 kids before 13 January, we believe in you! Bypass Congress to send israel nukes woooo!
Right wing trolls out in force on lemmy.
Right wing trolls telling people to not vote for a right winger?
Suuure bud.
That slander is predicated on the idea that there is a mainstream Left in the US, which is laughable if you’re even the least informed about politics in the remaining 95% (by population) of the World beyond that self-referential bubble called America.
I feel for you guys having been born in a country with a power duopoly and were elections are performative rather than votes having genuine power to set the direction of the nation, but that mindless slogan that not wanting to vote for a guy shipping bombs and artillery rounds to the XXI century Nazis who are murdering in mass the members of the etnic group that live in the ghetto the created and militarilly control next door, is beyond ridiculous.
I can understand the pain of being a tribalist who discovers the Chief of their tribe is a Nazi-lover and of trying to believe America is a Democratic and Free country all the while the only two people you’re allowed to select to lead your nation are Nazi-lovers (in a country of 350 million people, were I’m sure there are millions of perfectly competent president-material citizens who are not Nazi-lovers), but lets not try and solve those mental and emotional inconsistencies in your mind and your hearth (assuming you’re not a Nazi-lover yourself) with ridiculous sloganeering implying that those pointing that your tribe is led by a Nazi-lover hence you’re supporting Nazis if you stand with them, are doing so because they’re Nazi-lovers.
Yes, you are right wing. Apartheid supporters tend to be.
Aw I have a fan. Or did you forget to change accounts?
For the rest of the readers here: I have a long history of openly condemning Israeli apartheid. You will not find me defending religious extremists in any context, and I will always condemn mass violence.
These people who believe that Trump will liberate Gaza are trolls engaged in an organized campaign to get people to not vote for Biden.
Yer I do think there maybe some, but they could so just be a bit crazy. I gave up trying to reason with them. Though the ones I was debating thought they could not vote Biden and be blameless if they got Trump.
Why would I change accounts? I just love how your one conclusion is that all left opposition to the Democrats support for genocide is secret right wing trolls. I can’t get enough of mocking you for your supporting such shitty, shitty people.
also it should go without saying but fuck trump too, Every US president is a criminal and should be prosecuted for warcrimes.
You got anything productive to say or you just gonna bitch?
Yeah, every fucking “progressive democrat” needs to learn the word “ceasefire” real fast or they’re fucking dead to me for every future election.
Imagine calling someone who doesn’t support a Nazi a right winger.
I know that Israel is often cited as a client state, but it’s better described as a psuedoclient state. The entirety of NATO could cut off Israel entirely tomorrow, and it wouldn’t have any material impact on their capabilities. It would probably be enough international pressure, but Israel’s military would be capable of maintaining it’s genocide in roughly same capacity as it is now. Biden is culpable, but he’s not complicit.
the US would lose out on “convenient” training for their police forces …
Mate israel just lost to like 1500 untrained randos breaking through their border. They are insanely weak. They are 100% reliant on bombs and F35 parts from NATO and America.
The iron dome was already out if rockets from just the Hamas attack. NATO would stop sending them interceptors then all the rockets being sent back would land.
Hezbollah has enough rockets to completely flatten israel. Granted they would probably also get flattened themselves, but the iron meme system has shown to be easily defeatable with just a barrage of cheap trash.
Are we the baddies?
yes
They learned the SS handbook really well.
It’s mind boggling that the only thing the state of Israel learned from the Holocaust is how to do it better.
They just had more time to practice than Nazi Germany did.
THey’re not there… yet
I think it is more about blackmail and control the biggest military in the world.
This is not acceptable. Under any circumstances. Israel has the right to defend itself from terrorists but these atrocious war crimes are not a solution. At the same time, it’s just useless and it completely dehumanizes people.
Even if all in question were terrorists, Israel should never get to a level as low as this one.
It’s been at this level for decades.
And its a shame that none of the 2 sides learnt their lessons.
What two sides? You mean the nazis and the people who are right by default, because their opponents ARE FUCKING NAZIS?
There are no lessons to be learned here. Israel is doing what they have always done: stealing land and conducting genocide. While Palestinians are doing what they’ve always done - fighting the fucking nazis. At this point in time, the only lesson to be learned is that the UN should collectively take Israel back, give the land to Palestinians and then literally suck some Palestinian dick for a few hundred years as an apology.
This is factually very incorrect and you are completely ignoring half of the story. Just like Israel displaced many Arabs from their land, Arab countries did the same: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world
If you argue that Israel should give the whole land back to Palestinians, sure, but also convince many Arab countries to give parts of their land back to Jews. So that it is fair and Israelis have somewhere to go. I am sure that this idea would go very well in Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, etc. If you say that UN should collectively take Israel back, where should the Israelis go? Just like Palestinians, they have nowhere else to go. Asking for the destruction of Israel is just like asking for the destruction of Palestine - a terrible idea.
It is fair to say both sides have done terrible actions and none of them can be excused. However, telling only one side of the story and completely ignoring the other one is not correct. Debating who is the worse here makes zero sense. For every argument why Israel is worse than Palestine, it is possible to find one why Palestine is worse than Israel. It’s literally like debating who was the best and worst out of Hitler, Stalin and Zedong. Continuing the debate who has done more crimes is completely useless because it helps nothing. Both sides have done tons of them.
From the first paragraph in your link:
Primarily a consequence of the Israeli Declaration of Independence […]
So the expulsion of Jewish people from Arab states discussed here came AFTER the illegal forming of Israel - as a direct result of it, in fact. Israelis did have “somewhere to go” before the zionists movement basically lobbied for a state of their own - they lived all over the world.
And of course this happened. If any country is 90% religion x and there is some land somewhere that is split between religion x and religion y, the UN would face horrendous push back from the 90% of that initial country that sympathizes with religion x. And while religion is a plague on our lands that brings little value aside from excusing atrocities, this is the fucking UN. Lacking the tact to understand how their shit resolution destabilized the region isn’t something that’s supposed to be allowed for them. They fucked up and now refuse to fix it.
But let’s make it easier - have the UN pass a resolution today that makes half the US(or Germany, or the UK, or Russia) Arab land, only for Arabs, to be settled by Arab settlers. See how well that fucking goes, and then go ahead and blame that country for not being willing to go ahead with half their land being taken away.
There is no “other side” here, man. Zionists created this problem. They’re unwilling to fix it, and they’re unwilling to stop their genocide. Everything else is a reaction to this. You don’t get to say “fuck you, I own this land now” and then turn around and say “WAAAAHH THE OTHER SIDE DOESN’T WANT TO COMPROMISE”. Of course they fucking don’t.
For every argument why Israel is worse than Palestine, it is possible to find one why Palestine is worse than Israel.
Israel is committing genocide. That is why it is worse. That is what everyone except you can see, and that is why you’ve lost this argument.
So far there has not been a decision made that Israel is committing genocide, so your point is irrelevant. It is currently at the international court. Once the final decision is made, then we will see.
Judging what war crime is worse cannot be exactly said and depends on person’s opinion…
Where do you live? I think I should move in and then kill your family if they object.
Found the colonizer
Why were the early Zionists dead set on partition (and repeatedly stated that partition would only be a step to a full state of Israel) as soon as Palestinian leaders advocated for a unitary state? Why does Palestine get the blame for not wanting their land taken during WWII while European countries and the US didn’t increase or in some cases even restricted Jewish immigration even once the Nazi atrocious were known? What’s the Palestinian equivalent of Plan Dalet? How about the Israeli martial law? The occupation and blockade? There absolutely has been a cycle of violence, but this has been a cycle of violence between the Colonizer/Occupier and Colonized/Occupied
https://imeu.org/article/plan-dalet
https://mondoweiss.net/2018/01/examining-myths-israel/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law#Israel
https://forward.com/news/470923/israel-land-conquest-1967-occupation-six-day-war-plans/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza
The issue with this narrative is that there was a state of Palestine. It wasn’t like Palestine existed and UN suddenly came and decided that a part of it would belong to Jewish people. There was the intention to create 3 new states (Jordan, Israel and Palestine) which never existed before.
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That’s addressed in the 2nd link
“Zionism was a settler colonial movement, similar to the movements of Europeans who had colonized the two Americas, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand… Settler colonialism is motivated by a desire to take over land in a foreign country, while classical colonialism covets the natural resources in its new geographic possession… The problem was that the new ‘homelands’ were already inhabited by other people. In response, the settler communities argued that the new land was theirs by divine or moral right, even if, in cases other than Zionism, they did not claim to have lived there thousands of years ago. In many cases, the accepted method for overcoming such obstacles was the genocide of the indigenous locals.”
Serious question.
Does an occupier have the “right” to defend itself from attacks from the occupied in occupied areas? For example, attacks on the IDF in the West Bank.
I believe that as long as there are attacks against civilians, then yes. Basically attacking civilians is never a good option. Many people live in the undisputed areas simply because it’s more beneficial to them as Israel supports it a lot. I personally visited one of these areas and the amenities were very good. So I don’t think that it should be okay for Palestinians to come and murder Israelis in the undisputed areas.
However, the main issue is that these settlements exist. I am under the impression that you should not use the land as long as it is not widely recognised that it belongs to you. So the main issue is the approach that Israel claimed something is theirs without actually talking about it with the relevant parties.
But it’s been their decision to do this shit, so it’s their responsibility to solve it now. Either abandon it (which would be a complete waste of resources) or build something for Palestinians but those are just random guesses.
The settlements only exist because the Palestinians have been violently ethnically cleansed from the land the settlements exist on.
What you are arguing is effectively, it’s fine to ethnically cleanse as long you settle civilians there afterwards.
I have not said that. I have said there should not be a violence from Palestinians because it solves nothing.
The IRA and ANC had great political outcomes through violence. Meanwhile the PLO laid down arms and Israel acts like the Oslo accords never happened.
Well maybe it worked sometimes but here it is not. Arabs/Palestinians tried roughly 10+ times and each time it ended in a complete catastrophe for them. At least I would change strategy.
In case you haven’t noticed, most of the Palestinians being killed are the ones that didn’t resort to violence, exactly the behaviour you claim above they should try.
Your entire “argumentation” line relies on the racist idea that all Palestinians are the same and hence they’re all responsible for the violence of Hamas.
It’s like justifying the Nazis going to villages in Occupied France and executing 10 random people for every German killed by the Résistance Française as if they’re all the same and hence all guilty of the violence, something which is so painfully close to what Israel has been doing (except Israel has already surpassed the Nazis, with a rate which is more than double that 10-to-1 and includes children) and the kind of justification the Iraeli Authorities and their fellow racist supremacists give.
That racist “they’re all the same hence all to blame (including children)” line has long ago stopped working, including your “Palestinians are violent” variant.
Excellent point. There should also not be violence from Israel because it solves nothing. So end the fucking genocide, the occupation, the god damn apartheid.
I agree with you. By these huge operations, Israel pretty much opens the door for another big extremist group.
Neither does peaceful protest considering ethnic cleansing has continued unabated for decades.
Well there have been several negotiations, so it is definitely better to continue in those compared to starting a war.
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So basically you are saying the settlers are like Israel’s human shields for the occupation and the Palestinians should not attack them? Excellent point, which of course should be applied also to the Gazan civilian population.
My point is that both sides should to their best to protect civilians whether those civilians are Palestinian or Israeli. None of them is doing it.
Israel has been getting much lower than this for decades now.
Buckle up because it’s very much going to be accepted
For anyone wondering if this site is credible, it is
Doing the lords work
Mbfc is pretty meaningless these days.
What is meaningful, is what I want to know.
I recommend Man’s Search for Meaning, by Viktor Frankl. I can’t say I’ve figured it out, personally.
According to testimonies, the soldiers ordered all the men to undress, gathered them in one place, and took the photos that were later disseminated on social media (senior Israeli officials have since chided the soldiers for sharing the images).
It’s very telling that the officials only have a problem with the evidence of their war crimes.
How tf is the US still supporting these sub-human pieces of shit. Holy fuck, Biden is just letting this happen. They’ve taken what could be called as an open area prison and fully converted it to a concentration camp. I said it last night, they won’t stop until the entire state of Gaza is dead. They talk about their vision for a post war Gaza and it’s essentially just Israeli occupation “until they see fit” and there will be “no speaking out or hostility towards Israel of any kind.” At best it’s a dictatorship, and at worst a fucking death camp.
The most terrifying part of this is that no one there is sub-human. The people doing these horrible horrible things are exactly as human as you and me and that’s mortifyingly agonizing to me. I really really wish we lived in a world where the worst of monsters weren’t human, even if it was just a little not human, but that’s just not our world.
This is exactly what propaganda does, spreading misinformation, dehumanizing the people on the other side, spreading hatred and so on and unfortunately normal people can easily fall on that and start seeing the others as subhuman species.
The same with the Nazis. A lot of them were just regular citizens who were subjected to a lot of propaganda and at some point all of the atrocities they were doing were normalised in their eyes.
I’m with you for all this. But let’s not be like them. Let’s not dehumanize them like they do their victims. They’re very human. Shitty humans. But definitely human.
Fair enough. You’re right.
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Biden isn’t letting this happen, he’s actively supporting it.
How tf is the US still supporting these sub-human pieces of shit
yeah how tf is the US still supporting their politicians
I’m gonna say it. Israel is no better than the Nazis, and I wholeheartedly believe the nation should be dissolved and the people moved off of the land they stole from the Palestinians. These people do not act with humanity, and I don’t have any sympathy for whatever happens to them in the future.
I think the only way this can end is similar to South Africa. International pressure needs to end the current governance of Israel as an apartheid state and a new state with equal rights for all Palestinians, including all the refugees, and Israeli citizens needs to be created in its place.
True. But i would add the extra detail that all the land stolen from Palestinians by Israel should be returned.
In South Africa that wasn’t done. We had land and a house that my grandfather built up by himself in what is now one the most expensive suburbs in Cape Town. That land was stolen from us and never returned.
And it hurts so much everytime we have to go past there because there are rich white folks living there now. And we know we’ll never be able to afford that land now no matter how hard we work. Now we struggle to even leave a home for our children to inherit.
I don’t want that happening to the Palestinians again.
I completely agree. Palestinians need reparations for their land and valuables stolen in the ethnic cleansing campaign and the generations of trauma they have been subjected to since. If they can’t or don’t want their old land/home, they need additional reparations for their new one (for example if they want to live in a different area)
That’s… Not what happened. Both Israel and Palestine have long historical precedence, and tumultuous ownership claims. They were ultimately created by Britain post-WW2, who then bowed out after a year with very little planning. Don’t add your country’s baggage to an already complex reality. It’s not true, and it’s not going to help you understand what’s going on over there.
The settlers (aka colonolialist thieves and murderers) are literally killing, maiming, torturing Palestinians on their own land in the West Bank. Driving them out of their own houses, lands and farms. The Israeli army stands by and watches this. If any Palestinian tries to fight back against the settlers in the process of stealing their land they are maimed and/or murdered. And this is only in the West Bank where land theft and murder by the Israelis is still happening to this day. It doesn’t include any of the other clear land theft that had taken place in historic Palestine by the Israelis.
Now tell me that is not similar to the Apartheid police force breaking into houses in your area and telling you to move or be murdered, because your property now belongs the Apartheid state that is going to parcel it out to the white Apartheid supporting citizens.
Finding similarities between the atrocities commited by the Apartheid South African government and the Apartheid Israeli government is not adding my country’s baggage to a complex reality. A lot can be learnt by looking back at similar atrocities commited in the past and the repercussions of that, whay was learnt, etc.
Also an important point is that because of experiencing a similar repression of my people, parents, grandparents, and living through the tail end of that repression, i have empathy and some understanding of what the Palestinians are going through. I can’t claim to know exactly how they’re feeling but i do have some idea.
I have been campaigning in South Africa for Palestinian rights and self determination since i was a young teenager with my peers and my parents. I have been aware of the history, geopolitics and reality of the situation of the Palestinians since then. I have a pretty decent understanding of what is going on over there.
I misinterpreted your original post, but re-reading it now I agree. I was reacting to the common idea in this thread that Israel doesn’t have any right to exist – which is complicated, as all post-colonial history is. That wasn’t what you were commenting on, though. Israel is definitely encroaching on Palestinian land and rights in Gaza and the West Bank, and are at least half of the force against real peaceful solutions. I fully agree that what’s going on now should be classified a genocide, and as far as I know South Africa is the only country that has stated it.
It’s amazing the damage wrought in the wake of colonialism. Both Palestine/Israel and South Africa have suffered tremendously from colonizers deciding they knew what (and who) was best.
It’s no problem. Maybe i can also be more clear too in the future when replying.
It’s true that the Israeli citizens and the Palestinian citizens will have to be involved in a common solution. It will be very bitter, especially for the Palestinians, but one has to move forward
I’m Israeli. I was born and raised here, in a city that never existed before pre-Israel pioneers established it. I also voted against the current shitshow of a government.
Where do you expect me to go exactly?
It didn’t exist before the Israelis showed up? Then what you’re saying is that your people established an illegal settlement on stolen lands. In that case, I would say that you should be forced to leave that land so that it can be used by the people it belongs to. You’re illegal squatters, you don’t have any right to that land.
Nope. The land was purchased from previous land owners. You can read about the city here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra'anana
Forcing the people of Israel to relocate would be a war crime in itself.
Forcing them off the land they’ve stolen is not a war crime any more than forcing Russia out of Crimea would be. The warcrime has already been committed, undoing that warcrime is justice.
I understand disliking the establishment of Israel at the expense of Palestinians and Palestinian land. As a state, they revolt me. But forced removal of Israelis would be Genocide by definition. War crimes by Israel don’t justify commiting crimes against the Israeli populace.
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No, they were not.
If we were only talking about the people who originally colonized the area you’d have a point. But we’re not, so you’re just talking about ethnic cleansing and collective punishment of a civilian population. If you think crimes against humanity are the way to resolve conflicts, you’d fit right in with the leadership of Hamas or Likud.
How about we offer them the option, and if they refuse - bury them under the 70 years of Palestinian graves that they created.
Fuck off outta here with your “war crime to relocate them” shit. Israel is a made-up country that relies on money greasing the right pockets to exist. It’s time to dissolve it.
You’re just as bad as they are.
They learned it from US. Does nobody remember Abu Graib? Guantanamo Bay?
For those who think US Army is above this kind of torture.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse
Or maybe armies just perpetuate this shitty behaviour by default because it’s by design.
Defining it as a feature doesn’t excuse it.
Defining it as a feature would dispel the myth of there being an ethical way to incarcerate/indefinitely detain people. The “bad apples” argument tries to put forward an idea that something bad is actually fine. It’s only bad in ‘this instance’ because these people are bad/immoral/incompetent.
Inside camp
Picture was taken outside
Fun fact: sometimes people erect barbed wire fences around the external location where they store their torture victims and call that inside a camp and also outdoors/outside.
Another example would be large parts of the concentration camps along the southern US border.
You think that’s not inside the camp? Are you expecting it to be like your church camp? With cabins and running showers, with beds and a fireplace outside where they can have some roasted marshmallows?
Jesus Christ, what a goddamn dumbass.
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I’m just glad this is a reliable source! 927mag.com is truth as everyone always says
I’m assuming this is your snark, knowing your posting history. I’ve caught you three times spreading Israeli disinformation.
Just so everyone knows, this site’s credibility is high.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/972-magazine/
Bias Rating: LEFT-CENTER
Factual Reporting: HIGH
Country: Israel
MBFC’s Country Freedom Rating: MODERATE FREEDOM
Media Type: Website
Traffic/Popularity: Minimal Traffic
MBFC Credibility Rating: HIGH CREDIBILITY
I really hope you’re not trying to spread more Israeli disinformation.
Is that sarcasm? Sorry, I can’t tell if it is or not. If you don’t think so, can you link sources of 927mag lying or fabricating stories? I haven’t found any evidence of them not being credible, quite the opposite from what I can tell
