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What does this even mean?
“Men lose their mind” = they start shouting and shitting on the floor in disbelief?
“Daughters aren’t as forgiving as their wives”: forgiving what exactly? Mistakes?
It’s like they think they’re saying something profound and agreeing with each other but saying nothing of value (as is natural on twitter).
I think it’s speaking about women who “allow” bad behavior.
Like, maybe the man’s mom used to do all his chores for him without asking, so he comes to expect it. His wife, who is not his mother, says he has to do his own laundry and maybe puts their foot down about the whole “weaponized incompetence” some men use. The man is surprised, because he didn’t expect his wife to be “less forgiving” than this mother, who just gave us and did it for him.
For daughters, sometimes daughters (or just children in general) , as an outside observer to the relationship, can tell that one parent is shit (in this case, the father). While the wife may go, “He didn’t meant it, he’s just tired,” the daughter may not be “as forgiving” and just say he is abusive.
However, I don’t think either of these are gender specific. Just depnsends on the dynamic at play.
Or, you know, kids haven’t got the same grasp of adult life that grown ups do.
I have a 23 year old daughter. She has a job, an education, is currently travelling the world and she’s still really very immature in many ways. I know there be will be people that age right now reading this and hating it and you know you’re really still very far away from really getting this but there is SO much in life that we have to learn to let go. SO many failures of our own and of others that we need to find a way to live with. It took me a long, long time to really get to the point where I was able to forgive the world for being a place where certain bad things had happened. That’s the thing that finally allowed me to keep looking for goodness, to struggle for hope instead of being angry with reality. You look deep into any maladjustment be it drug addiction, eating disorders, rage, pretty much any negative compulsion - deep down in there it’s this. It’s this inability to forgive the world for being a place where bad things can happen. Which is clearly a child-like response to not getting our way. Only now “getting our way”, like it’s not that you were refused a treat but rather you’re waching the bigger part of humanity suffer and realising you’re near powerless to do anything about it. Two things can be true. The world can be a bad place sometimes but it can also be good. If you can’t forgive it for its failings you’ll struggle to see the good side.
That’s why I said “sometimes” and not, “every child, everywhere, all the time.”
Your 23 year old may be really immature still, some kids are not. Depends on the kiddo. However, I don’t think forgiving abusive parents is a lesson that should be taught. You can hold someone accountable without hating the rest of the world. I can not forgive an abusive parent and still see the good side of things without being a doormat.
I’m right there with you. I’m utterly confused.
What is there to forgive? Is thore some inherent shittyness in men that needs overlooking on the part of women, or suppressing on the part of men?
Or is this just talking about how gender equality as improved with each generation, so as the same dudes age, the younger women in their lives are asking them to be more and more fair?
Not inherent, no, but culturally ingrained crappy behaviours? Sure.
Absolutely, but those shouldn’t be overlooked by anyone, and forgiven only once someone has made the effort to unlearn that shit.
Is the “profound” message here really just that as younger women enter the lives of their aging husbands and then fathers, they tolerate less and less of the historical sexist shittyness, as they’ve grown up a generation later than the previous main female figure in their lives?
Scoffing when asked to change ones behaviour for the better is not a gendered charachter fault. No-one likes being informed that something they’ve been doing, and consider normal, is bad, actually.
And that’s not a reason not to improve. The opposite. It’s a reason to embrace self-improvement, and to learn to do ones best to skip the denial phase.
Something I think most people, of both genders, can be very good at if they want to be.
Is the “profound” message here really just that as younger women enter the lives of their aging husbands and then fathers, they tolerate less and less of the historical sexist shittyness
I’m not sure how profound it’s “supposed” to be, but I think that’s basically the message, that’s what I took from it at least.
THERE IT IS
RIGHT OVER HERE OFFICER!
You see, it’s simple: men bad
It’s worse than that. It’s a sexist assertion that all men model the worst of our gender while all women model the best of theirs, which aggrivatingly dismisses feminist progressive men and excusing sexist regressive women.
DomeWife is not the one teaching DomeBaby about bodily autonomy or feminism, though she does have plenty of examples of women being sexist to our manly kith and kin.
this comment is difficult to read because I can’t figure out if you’re sarcastic or not, it would make sense either way and I have no way of knowing
That’s the beauty of it innit
Not just that, they are worse than women in every way. (I want equality btw).
Why in earth would I compare the woman I’m blasting with my mother?! That’s kinda weird.
⚠️FREUD ALERT FREUD ALERT⚠️
I go in with a lot of fervour myself, but “blasting”?
Your mother is kind of hot, so…
Good lord the discourse here is about as well as the man or bear discussions.
Something I notice is how everytime someone makes these kinds of criticisms, the counterarguments turn into a pit of semantics and extropolations. As if the original post was a massive research thesis rather than just women venting frustration over the entitlement and danger they’re subjected to daily.
You gotta look past the specific wording to see the overarching societal themes, emotions, and issues. It’s like those magic eye pictures.
The undercurrent of misogyny is so so rampant on Lemmy, worse even than reddit was. Posts like this bring it right out. I can’t believe how many upvotes some of these red-pill-ass comments have. It’s really discouraging to see and often makes me too nervous to speak up on women’s issues here on Lemmy, lest I be absolutely brigaded.
At least the bear can’t use a keyboard and thus wouldn’t be able to try and bully me into shutting up on the internet, so there’s another instance where I’d choose a bear over a random man.
Half the comments here are shitting on men.
Goodness gracious, it’s almost like you’re commenting on the thread almost a day later and maybe the comments are a bit different now, as opposed to earlier.
Just saying what I am saying not my fault posts take forever for anything new to come up to my feed.
No, but deciding to comment is a choice you made, not something out of your control like something appearing in your feed.
At least the bear can’t use a keyboard and thus wouldn’t be able to try and bully me into shutting up on the internet, so there’s another instance where I’d choose a bear over a random man.
Absolute mood.
I agree there is sexism, but were you on Reddit for those first few years? This place is a Disney movie compared to how Reddit used to be.
I actually mentioned that in a comment above. Reddit used to be just as bad, if not worse indeed, but that doesn’t excuse Lemmy by any means. I do hope that it’s a good indicator that Lemmy will get better with time, though.
Lemmy is a lot less women-friendly, queer-friendly, trans-friendly than the rest of the fediverse. That really needs to change.
Lemmy is a lot less women-friendly, queer-friendly, trans-friendly than the rest of the fediverse. That really needs to change.
It’s a lot like Reddit was back in the old days in that way :/
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The undercurrent of misogyny is so so rampant on Lemmy, worse even than reddit was
Surprised if true
I thought the funniest part about the man vs bear stuff was women saying how they’d pick the bear because “at least it was honest about wanting to kill me” lmao
Had to scroll waaay too far to find something sane.
Look at this point I know more women with unrealistic relationship expectations than men.
The world has changed a ton in the past twenty years. There’s been a lot of discussion about toxicity in regards to male gender roles, and fundamentals changes to what’s acceptable for a man to expect in a relationship.
There hasn’t really been that discussion in women. While many women have perfectly fair expectations, there are a lot of women who will expect a man to completely reject gendered expectations of them, while having a ton of expectations of a man. It’s almost a joke among my single male friends that the more vocal someone is about being a feminist, the more likely they’ll expect you to pay for the date.
There’s also a subculture of women behaving in ways that would be considered objectively toxic a decade ago, but have been normalized due to the whole oppressor/oppressed culture war narrative. I’ve seen women bail on long term relationships in ways that are 100 percent because they just want to sleep around. I’ve seen women push their husband into an “ethically polyamaorous” relationship that always is extremely one sided. I’ve also seen a lot of women with an “I can do better” mentality that nobody in a relationship would have to put up with.
I’m not saying women are universally awful or anything. I’m just saying I think we need to have the same conversation around how women behave that we had in regards to how men behave.
Most of the dudes I know who aren’t currently married just don’t expect to have a relationship at all at this point in their lives (mostly middle age IT guys). The consensus is online dating isn’t worth it to even bother with and it’s hard AF to meet anyone in the real world so they focus on their hobbies and socialize with their bros instead. There’s no animosity towards women and there are a few women that come out with us when we go to the bar but nobody is pursuing romance.
My friends have better luck, but it’s a constant grind. Also, as far as I can tell, a guy’s chance of getting into a relationship is basically a thin proxy for how attractive he is. Meanwhile for women the chances seem to be proxy for a combination of genuine kindness and realistic expectations. Any women with remotely realistic expectations is off the market in six weeks flat.
I’m too out of touch with toxic people (thankfully I don’t know many), I’m unable to understand their reasoning
to the point that when you mentioned the “I can do better” mentality, my first thought was “I can do better to improve myself”, but instead it’s just shit about high or low value people
it’s sad that someone genuinely believes the world revolves around them
I’m not saying women are universally awful or anything.
You obviously aren’t, but it speaks volumes all on its own that you felt there was a need to state that, only bolstering your other points about this one-sidedness.
I’ve seen women bail on long term relationships in ways that are 100 percent because they just want to sleep around.
Someone got cucked and is bitter about it 😂
Edit, y’all aren’t realizing that no cheating is a 100% thing and this person is blaming one of the 2 victims regardless, you all just want to blame one person with no self-reflection.
No my SO is a wonderful woman who is a feminist in the sense that she does not enjoy any form of gender roles. That was extremely common when we first started dating. We are both pretty happy in our relationship.
My frustration comes from watching a lot of my guy friends struggle. Just because I’m not the one being cucked doesn’t mean I appreciate seeing it in my social circles or appreciate seeing that behavior being defended.
Again, there’s a lot of dialogue about how women need to stick up for other women. The idea that men have to be in it for themselves is ridiculous.
That being said, I would have every right to be bitter if my SO pressured me into an open relationship, and my friend group watched because a small amount of women were very supportive of the idea and nobody wanted to confront them. That’s an extremely fucked up position to put anyone in.
Flip the roles here
“Someone got cheated on and is bitter about it”
Makes it more clear how much of a prick you’re being
These people never met my mother
Fellow bro, same here.
I hope you’re doing fine.
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Joke’s on you, my mother was completely unforgiving.
My mom beat my ass on the regular for any and every reason. Fuck this post.
There is a fine line between valid criticism of gender roles & sexism.
An example of the former would be, “Men are dangerous for women”. Of course not all men are dangerous, but it describes the experience of many women & how they have to navigate the world, to not be assaulted.
This one describes the dynamic of a relationship between individuals & assigns a thought pattern to one of those individuals, based on their gender.
Maybe I missed some nuances here & I would be glad to be enlightened, but this looks like plain sexism.
There’s a long, documented, researched, history of men being raised to expect things from women. It’s not just housework but all kinds of things are taken much more seriously when a woman does something “wrong” than when a man does. It takes a lot of serious introspection and effort to break out of that programming so it’s not a surprise that the majority of men don’t, or only do so partially. The default state is that this stuff is sort of “invisible” because it seems so normal to how things are. So no, this is a factual description of a “standard” behaviour for men that only some are able to avoid.
If you at all accept that there are harmful but culturally ingrained gender roles then this is a natural consequence of that for anyone who hasn’t deeply and actively questioned them. Then as those roles are indeed slowly being broken down it stands to reason that each successive generation is less willing to put up with them - but if you still see them as normal it will come as a surprise.
If you at all accept that there are harmful but culturally ingrained gender roles
The problem is that all too often those harmful gender roles are only called out as being harmful to women, not to men, but they are. The solution to the gender roles issue is not digging trenches between genders.
Long documents and researched history.
They say with no support.
This is a chat thread on a meme post, not an academic paper. “Gender roles exist” does not need a citation.
Women expect things from men: “women power!”
Men expect things from women: MISOGYNY !
Expectations of women of men: basic human decency, don’t rape
Expectations of men of women: be completely subservient in every way
atro_city: “these are the same picture”
Hmmm.
I’d phrase it differently. Unrealistic expectations of the opposite sex [^1] exist by both sexes, but that there outcomes for women when the stereotypes of men hold true are often more dangerous. One is saying it isn’t sexist; the other is saying that there’s a vast difference in risk. This becomes one of those tautological arguments where women can’t be sexist because sexism is redefined to mean “it can only be sexist if it’s men doing it.”
The “Would you rather a bear or…” question could be reused in a very uncomfortable way. You could swap men with a group of yoing, black, inner city men and rural white men for women. But instead of demonstrating that men are the issue and women the victims, suddenly it’d be black men who are the victims and rural white men the problem. And, yet, the fear and the risk of confirmation of stereotypes is the same - only in this case, believing those stereotypes makes people racist.
These sorts of tautologies - only whites can be racist, only men can be sexist - is sloppy, lazy, and dangerous, because it prevents introspection and always externalizes blame. I’m not saying that you are arguing a tautology, but that’s the essence of this thread: minimizing sexism against men in the basis that it can’t be sexism if rape isn’t involved. Which is exactly how this thread went, isn’t it?
I want to reiterate that I agree that there’s a false equivalency; consequences for women can be higher. My argument is that it doesn’t make it not sexism to broadly brush all men with a demeaning funny little tweet.
Also: there should be a Godwin’s Law for rape. The conversation was about household stereotypes. That was a bit of a leap.
Also: there should be a Godwin’s Law for rape. The conversation was about household stereotypes. That was a bit of a leap.
I’ll leave this here.
Across their lifetime, 1 in 3 women, around 736 million, are subjected to physical or sexual violence by an intimate partner or sexual violence from a non-partner – a number that has remained largely unchanged over the past decade.
In the US it’s 1 in 6 women (and 1 und 33 men).
https://rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence
And last but bit least:
Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.
https://www.humboldt.edu/supporting-survivors/educational-resources/statistics
So no, jumping to rape is not a leap. The fear of sexual violence is part of beeing a women. I don’t know a single women that wasn’t in a situation that did or did almost resulted in sexual violence.
It’s not part of beeing a men. I have never in my life feared about sexual violence and I share that with the vast majority of men.
Yes, those are the only expectations all men and women have /s
It’s not at all an uncommon story. Go to any women’s support group or site, and it’ll be a very consistent trend. A lot of people still have the old gender roles stuck in their heads, but they fail to acknowledge that some things have changed.
The big one is that women can now be financially independent. We’re only 2 generations away from women being able to open a bank in their name in the US. Before that, women didn’t have the financial freedom to live alone or divorce abusive/neglectful spouses.
The other one kind of ties into the first one, freedom of choice. It’s not as big an expectation for women to marry, and people are finding that a lot of women would prefer to be alone and single than married. Where do you think all these memes of childless cat ladies come from? It didn’t start with JD Vance. He just amplified it.
Generalizations about my out-group 👍
Generalizations about my in-group 👎
It isn’t about what an individual’s in or out groups are, it’s about what they are in society at large, and the power imbalance between them.
The point being made is that you won’t solve the issue if you divide society between men and women, instead of normal people and sexist bigots. The point is not to replace existing harmful sexist stereotypes with your own sexist stereotypes, but to come together and listen to each other.
Oh boy! Gender discussion?! My favorite!
“Boy” ??!? 😤
favorite??
As if some things are better than other things???
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yeah yeah, we get it, you have forgiving mothers, nice humble brag.
Comment section here showing the user demographics of Lemmy lol
In what way? it looks 50/50 to me.
these 2 statements are not mutually exclusive
well, lemmy.world has defederated or has been defederated by a bunch of progressive instances.
There is no escape… 😑
(I mean, there is as far as blocking them all, but you still know they’re there, crawling all over and invading every space that exists)
This is the kind of bullshit an alcoholic mom posts after she loses custody.
I think men in general have a wake-up moment when they realize no woman is going to love them the same way their mother did, that romantic love does not work the same way as familial love.
And the worst part is, if you find a woman whose love feels like your mother’s love, RUN.
I hope not. My mother would beat me with whatever she could grab and once cut up all my socks because I pull them up too far.
Sounds like the moms are to blame. Moms need to be less forgiving of their sons, to better prepare them for their future relationships.
Moms need to allow men to see their children, so children don’t grow up with only the softer half of the parenting they could receive.
a father can still give soft parenting, so I don’t agree with the second part
children shouldn’t always get soft and hard parenting, they’re not swords on an anvil, they’re people trying to learn the world
people without fathers do worse in life. this is extremely well documented
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