- cross-posted to:
- atheism@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- atheism@lemmy.world
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This person is openly telling you that the only thing stopping them from being a shitty person is some myth about otherworldly punishment after they die.
Which, of course, means they’ll be juuuust as shitty as they believe they can get away with.
Yeah, the “why be good if there’s no God/Hell” is a disturbing as fuck argument, because it essentially says that if they decide that their god wants them to start killing, they’ll do it.
I’m good because if I do something bad, I feel bad about it. It’s pretty simple.
exactly. i understand that doing bad things is bad because i feel guilt and shame when i do bad things. conversely, i feel good when i do good things. I also understand the broader implications of both-- not to mention that i have empathy and can see the impact of my actions upon others while caring as well.
i don’t need a fairy tale to threaten me with eternal torture in order to not be a sociopath.
That’s the problem. These people lack empathy. They don’t feel happy when they make someone else happy unless they get something more than that out of it.
because they’ve been taught that life is a zero-sum game: if anyone else’s life improves - even just a little - it must necessarily come at the cost of someone else’s life getting worse. this isn’t true, of course, but they can’t see life as any other way, so the ideas of equality and working together to improve society are antithetical to their worldview. they’re to be fought. They have an “every man for himself” philosophy, and it’s nothing but selfish, self-centered solipsism.
And it also makes them treat their kids like shit.
Why make your kid feel good if you don’t gain anything?
it also teaches their kid that selfish motivations and material rewards are the only things of value, and that they’re worth liying, cheating, and even stealing for-- as long as you don’t get caught, because right and wrong are only a matter of the consequences one may personally face. and, even then, it’s a cost-benefit analysis. again, the zero-sum game.
If you and I have an interaction that leaves us both happy, that’s socialism and GOPJesus frowns on socialism.
The number of murderers who claim
goodGod told them to do it is non-zero.who claim good told them
Was this a typo?
Yes, rather an autocorrect-o.
I had a coworker catholic who both said that statement, and also argued animals had no souls, so no one should ever get in trouble for animal abuse. Along with his ridiculously heated response to any government involvement in Healthcare, and the way he got close to yelling when discussing these topics while also claiming he was just being logical, not emotional. Why yes he did call women emotional, how did you know?
People like him scare me, because it sounds like if he could use some religious context to say I didn’t have a soul, he’d probably come to the same conclusion he did about dogs.
And being nice just makes your (and others) life nicer.
Yeah that’s my takeaway from that argument as well. If you have to be threatened by some vague notion of a future punishment in order to not be a complete dickwad, you’re clearly not a good person.
Why be good if there’s no hell? Because to live is to suffer. Society sucks. Accepting that, working past it, and being kind to those around you makes everything slightly more bearable. You are to be kind to others because it’s the right thing to be.
One crisis of faith away from a murder spree.
Happened to a relative of mine, kind of. Went on a drug and debauchery spree. Not the fun way. Hard drugs, seriously addictive. Stole from the family, we all disowned them. Ended up hitting someone while driving under the influence and killing them. Went to jail, supposedly got sober, but I’m still no-contact.
also the bible says genocide is ok and its ok to do all sorts of things to folks who aren’t your “neighbor”
Well, that’s why this is on shitpost.
That’s for what comes after the Tacos I think.
Its scary that people need hell to not commit crimes and stuff like that.
“I already commit all the murder and rape I want. The number of times I want to rape and murder just happens to be 0.” - Penn Gillette
Tbf, there were a few times I’ve wanted to murder some people.
Murder might be too specific, but there are definitely people I wish just didn’t exist anymore
Fuck, that’s such a damn good quote.
Both points, being A: Controlling the population when they are already adult and B: Controlling the population by raising them “correct”, are equally valid, though. Imo
The number of apparently utterly batshit insane potential criminals that are only held in check (barely) by religion in the US is quite disturbing.
I always hate that argument. Why be a decent human without the threat of eternal damnation? I mean that threat doesn’t seem to stop a vast number of religious people from being unbelievably cruel to their fellow humans, so…
If anything, it just used as justification for bad behavior. “My genocide is completely justified. It’s what God wanted!”
There are also plenty of good people in places with religions that have afterlives but not hell or any threat of eternal punishment.
True!
Yep. Even though I’m not an atheist, I still don’t understand this argument. I’m a good person (or at least try to be) for the sake of being a good person, because I don’t need to be threathened with eternal damnation in order to not murder people.
People who say they are only good because of the threat of eternal damnation are literal psychopaths.
I’m only good because of the law. I don’t like the idea of spending the rest of my life in jail.
Then you’re not good, you’re just law compliant.
Lawful Neutral
Exactly. It just sounds like they would do anything if they were sure they wouldn’t be punished for it.
Why be good if there is no hell?
Because morale is a societal and not a religious thing.
It seriously feels good to see this written down sometimes. I hate that religion somehow laid claim to morality.
My rebuttal to this is (they usually include murder as the bad thing being done), “Are you telling me fear of hell is the only thing keeping you from murdering me right now? Says a lot more about your morals than mine.”
Why be good if there is no hell?
Erm… If you need to be threathened with eternal torture in order to be a good person, then chances are you are not good person.
Exactly this thought made made me understand “god is irrelevant” a long time ago and I became an agnosticist.
I really can not understand people who are only “good” because they fear an ultimate judgment, and not be good just because they want to out of their own volition.
In case there are gods, I’ll be judged for who I am, anyways. It doesn’t matter if I play “good child”. If there are no gods, I’m still happier if I’m not an asshole.
What I find even more reprehensible than the sentiment “Without the threat of consequences, why should I be decent?” is that their own fucking book holds the answer to their goddamn question (not an expletive here, their god should and probably would damn them for it):
“So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.” - Matthew 7:12
The first half of this is a principle independent of religion, a fundamental social contract, the most critical idea underpinning any functioning society: Expect your behaviour to be reciprocated, and act accordingly. If you want others to help you if you need it, help people (if you can). If you want others to be kind to you, be kind to others. If you’re gonna be a prick, expect others to be just as prickly to you.
If all that keeps you from murdering people is the threat of eternal damnation, you forget that your own scripture says “If you kill people, expect that others may kill you in turn.”
Bonus: the biblical Jesus was known to hate hypocrites that pick out one piece of scripture to follow and ignore another and pharisees that carefully interpret and follow the letter of the law to find loopholes and ignore the heart of it. Those people lawyering their way around the otherwise unmistakable passages about generosity and giving away your wealth? Believe it or not, straight to hell.
More disgusting than the sentiment mentioned at the start is the hypocrisy of selectively applying it, the inconsistency in their own beliefs, the hollow facade of devotion while spitting on the principles they perjure to obey.
Signed, an apostate whose faith was shattered by fallacy of preaching love while children suffer and threatening hell while blasphemers thrive.
It absolutely confounds me how Christianity has become a stereotypically right-wing thing when in the context of the time Jesus’s actions are mostly that of a radical progressive who amassed such a following that the power structures of the time had him killed.
Like how in the hell can you run around hating homosexuals and immigrants when you account for the company Jesus kept in the context of the time? Only if you completely fucking ignore it.
My wife’s grandfather was a pastor, and a saying that has passed through her family is “On the day of judgment, there’s going to be a lot of Christians facing a very unhappy surprise”.
Signed, former apostate who has found his way back to being an incredibly frustrated Christian.
On the day of judgment, there’s going to be a lot of Christians facing a very unhappy surprise
I mean, even that is biblical. The passage in the Apocalypse about “What you did to the least of my brothers, you did to me” features a group of people claiming to be faithful being turned away just as they turned away the needy: “I don’t know you, go away”.
Which means we’re back on the topic of reading one part but ignoring another. How can you vote to slash social security nets, then go to church and look at that cross, the symbol of the ultimate sacrifice and of a man that said “if anyone forces you to go one mile, go two, and if they demand your shirt, give them the coat too”, with anything but shame and disgust at yourself?
In the Acts 5:1-10, there’s a story of a couple that sold an acre and gave part of the money to their parish. They lied and said it had been the full amount to exaggerate the weight of their contribution. As per the response, they wouldn’t have to give anything, but pretending it was the full amount was a deceit deserving of keeling over dead.
Yet televangelists pretend to do God’s work, enriching themselves beyond measure. Guess that threat of punishment only works if you actually believe it.
I’ve said it before I’ll say it again. If you need the threat of eternal damnation weighing over you to be a good person, you’re not a good person.
Instructions unclear. Unintentionally started sectarian conflict over whether mole poblano or salsa verde is the correct sauce for baptism.
Frankly, babies are delicious with either. Since you’re using them as dipping sauces, why not get both?
Just don’t double dip the baby. Thatd be heinous
I want some tacos now.
What do you mean by “now?” Like an eternal now? Like how it’s never not now until it’s stopped being now?
Yes. We would like an unending amount of tacos. The correct number of tacos is always one more.
Okay this is actually a perfect eastern vs western philosophy debate hidden in a taco.
I am going to make some very broad strokes here. So no armchair quarterbacking me. I know it’s way more nuanced but I’m not writing an essay on Lemmy.
In general Western philosophies always have a “goal.” Your human life is to prove your worthiness. You need to look back and atone for your past mistakes. You need to look forward so you can do the right things to be worthy. It is very little about being in the now.
Eastern philosophies are much more about being aware of the moment. The past has happened it cannot be changed you should not worry about it. The future doesn’t exist so there’s no need to focus on it. The only thing you can affect is the very moment in time you’re in and the only way to affect it is through your actions.
In this case tacos are the moment. So next time you’re eating a delicious taco. Spend that moment to be one with your taco. Concentrate on the smell. Then feel the texture as you pick it up. How the various colors interact with each other. Then as you bite off some, feel the textures in your mouth and how the flavors interact. Watch yourself, be aware of every time you chew. Remember there is no past there’s no future there is only tacos.
Western philosophy
if god is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent then what is the point in anything
- John Calvin
I am going to make some very broad strokes here. So no armchair quarterbacking me. I know it’s way more nuanced but I’m not writing an essay on Lemmy.
In general Western philosophies always have a “goal.”
I know you said it was a broad stroke, and that in general is that way, but I kind of disagree still. I think Western philosophy is about finding if we have a purpose and what is it, and many philosophers since Greek antiquity to today have answered they are skeptic of it existing or it being able to be known. From Pyrrho of Elis and Hegesias of Cyrene to Arthur Schopenhauer and Slavoj Žižek.
The word we are looking for is teleology (not to be confused with theology). It refers to finality, that there is a goal. Many philosophers did not subscribe to a teolology.
Your human life is to prove your worthiness.
Same thing as before.
You need to look back and atone for your past mistakes. You need to look forward so you can do the right things to be worthy. It is very little about being in the now.
I agree a little more with this, there are many Western philosophers preoccupied with ethics. But that’s why I think they were talking of different dimensions. It was not that existentially you should roam the past or future, that your mental activity should be there. It was about being responsible in the now for the future, and to be held accountable for your past. It was a morality thing, not a conscious/existential thing.
In this case tacos are the moment. So next time you’re eating a delicious taco. Spend that moment to be one with your taco. Concentrate on the smell. Then feel the texture as you pick it up. How the various colors interact with each other. Then as you bite off some, feel the textures in your mouth and how the flavors interact. Watch yourself, be aware of every time you chew. Remember there is no past there’s no future there is only tacos.
Hey! Go away with that mindful nonsense. If I do that, I spend too much time with a single bite and I cannot eat as much (/s).
Such mentality likely has to do with the environment. I read some that strategy games are more popular in Northern Europe than in Southern Europe, with the explanation that strategic planning is more essential for survival when the amount of sunlight is limited and there are months were you can’t really go outside because of snow and coldness.
That would mean adverse conditions require it more to plan for the future. Coldness is indeed just an example for such an environment.
Umm so it doesn’t get cold in Nepal, Tibet, Bhutan, the Gobi Desert, Northern China, etc.?
I have no idea how it plays between northern and southern Europe but there’s no way that the cold environment has anything to do with this it gets equally as cold if not colder in some parts of Asia. Plus many of those places don’t have the abundance of resources that would be provided by the forests or coasts of Northern Europe.
I am faced with the knowledge that I have masa harina just sitting around.
I’m gonna go have a religious experience.
Edit: did, huge success
You’ve not understood to Existence until you’ve gone “oh good. foo-ood.”
Source: Been a student, subsidised, unsubsidised, employed also, then left alone too. Unemployed, Also an intern, and not as much.
Foo-ooood is goo-ood. Just grab it. If you can. Tacos are better than death.
Agree 100%. (Sorry everyone who is sick of me bringing this up, but…) I am currently suffering from a condition where I can’t eat solid food and I haven’t for close to a year now. You have no idea how lucky you are if you can eat and enjoy food. It doesn’t sound like something that would be a lucky thing, but it absolutely is. There is nothing in this world like a really good meal.
Have you tried liquid tacos?
Russell’s Tacos.
My people!
