TikTok says it’s not the algorithm, teens are just pro-Palestine — The company denied allegations that it has been promoting pro-Palestine content in an effort to sway American opinion::In a blog post, the company denied allegations that it has been promoting pro-Palestine content in an effort to sway American opinion.
It’s almost like teens see something like a genocide being committed, think it’s wrong and say something about it.
Yeah I don’t think teens are particularly pro-Palestine or anti-Israel.
Teens throughout history have just been anti-war and anti-killing-children.
Imagine being a teenager and being against teenagers getting killed. What is this world coming to?
The sheer audacity
Obviously the teenagers are being mind-controlled
I don’t understand why so many stop doing so.
As you get older you learn that things are never black or white, and everything is grey. Global politics are complicated. The world is a giant chess board and Gaza is a pawn.
I’ve heard arguments that Israel should have essentially done nothing if they were good guys, but not retaliating sends a message to those funding Hamas that they should do it again.
Making matters worse, they are surrounded by people that constantly advocate for their eradication, they’ve already experienced such an event in their history, so to say they are more sensitive to it than other groups may be an understatement.
This was their 9/11. And back then the vast majority of Americans wanted to retaliate against Al Qaeda.
And to clarify further there is no “peace” between Israel and would be Palestine. You’re talking about 1 piece of land that three different religions have ancient ties to, with little desire to coexist on it. Chalk it up to just another failure of western powers dividing up the Middle East after WWII.
Short of some scenario where they can emigrate to Egypt or something, I don’t know what the answer is. They’re all bad options.
I am 29 and i only seem to become more radical of a pacifistic absolutists. Sure the world is grey, twisted dark sometimes even. But global politics are much more off a chaotic mess then they are complicated, and they are indeed complicated. There is no excuse to murder innocent people left and right for neither party or country.
It is naive to believe that we can just get rid of borders and become tolerant enough to let people live where they want without some issues but i much rather see us attempt that then maintain whatever we are doing right now.
I don’t think it’s healthy to be an absolutist about just about anything. The unattended consequences start to outnumber your ideals. If Israel hadn’t done after Hamas, Hamas would be empowered to keep doing it. The net effect would be more Israelis killed. Who knows, they may have been invaded by one of the several neighboring countries that would like nothing more than to destroy the country.
I think Ukraine is a better example though. I can’t fathom telling them they should try to get along with Russia. There’s the idea of being anti-war in general, and then there’s allowing a foreign aggressor to come in and take your country.
I think that you really did a good job summing up an incredibly complex issue in a fairly neutral way. No matter how smart you are as a kid/teen, there’s only so much you’re ever going to see play out, and it takes some time to get all the “data points” to start seeing the bigger picture.
As for Israel/Palestine, it’s literally one of the single most complex issues in geopolitics, and while it’s easy for someone reading articles and watching TikToks to just say “if Israel just gave them their land back and everything would be good!”, it’s ignorant of a much, much, MUCH bigger picture.
This is not saying I support any of what’s going on. I don’t think it’s particularly controversial to say that conflicts of any sort are fucking awful, but the reality is that if Israel just did pull out of the West Bank and ceded all the claims, there would be so many knock-on effects that are effectively impossible to predict, with none of them being particularly good.
Realistically, the only way you could ever hope to come to a “simple” solution that doesn’t result in a massive loss of life would be with a time machine.
Exactly. I think you’d have to go back to pre-Hitler to get any sort of major change, but then the butterfly effect comes into play heavily. What does Europe look like if Germany never escapes the grasps of their quite terrible post-WWI restrictions? Maybe all we do is flip the script and Jews are treated like the Palestinians but still in Germany? There’s no way of knowing.
I agree that it’s all awful. I don’t think there is a solution that leaves everyone happy and safe and that’s just the reality of life.
I don’t think there is a solution that leaves everyone happy and safe and that’s just the reality of life.
Sometimes a horrible outcome might be the best one. Germany and Japan were completely humiliated in WW2. Both turned out fine. Perhaps Palestine needs to properly lose this war. I mean, Palestine has lost wars several times against Israel before but they didn’t go through similar learning process that Germany and Japan did after WW2.
IDK, both can be true. Teens might be right in saying something and tiktok might be amplifying that kind of content because it helps China geopolitically. A highly upvoted post on Lemmy literally yesterday was this - https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/13/us/china-online-disinformation-invs/index.html
Tiktok also didn’t censor the major protests in France like Facebook and Twitter did at the time.
Theres only a handful of social media outlets. Tik tok is just not suppressing the Pro Palestine content like Western owned media outlets have been.
We speak lots of " free speech " in the West, but look how quick, German, British, American, Canadian government and media spheres are united in calling Palestine protestors terrorists and supporting hamas.
Its just our lack of free speech being exposed when it goes against the powers that be.
Tiktok also didn’t censor the major protests in France like Facebook and Twitter did at the time.
That proves nothing, it might equally be in China’s geopolitical interest to support discontent and protests in the West. A more interesting question is if TikTok would promote content about the Uyghur genocide the same way.
Well we know for a fact that China has it’s own Douyin (Tiktok) app and that it prioritises stopping any inkling of random social movements/organisation through social media.
So this isn’t really a mystery at all. Within China they are subject to their laws. Elsewhere they follow global norms.
I actually think all the furore about China and Tiktok was really not about Chinese control over Tiktok in the West, but about the West’s own control over Tiktok. Much like how Huawei was booted for not allowing US intelligence agencies to put in backdoors, rather than actually enabling spying itself (this came out last year iirc).
Ironic seeing as Huawei was founded with IP they stole from Nortel. They can fuck off as far as I’m concerned.
From Nortel, Ericsson, Alcatel…
Its how innovation happens. I’m pretty sure the Americans did the same to the British.
Came out where?
There’s a ton of support for the Palestinian people out there. It would strongly appear to be suppressed on commercial social media sites. I can’t say that Tiktok isn’t amplifying it, but as you poke around on open social platforms that tend to censor less, you see a lot more Pro-Palestine news and content. If you go through twitter or facebook and find specific regional bloggers, the content is out there but if doesn’t seem to pass the algorithm
The issue is not censorship, it’s disinformation and Hamas is all over it when allowed.
And conversely the Israeli government is known for its commitment to accuracy and preventing misinformation right?
I agree disinformation is an issue, but it’s an issue across the board on both sides of any issue
I’m skeptical that hamas has the resources to spread much misinformation to us. This doesn’t feel like a “both sides” time.
They literally have the government platform in Gaza and are for some reason believed at face value despite being more wrong than right. They are also amplified by multiple Arab states and their state run news organizations.
Right. I don’t think the Palestinian government has the propaganda resources to match the combined Israeli and US governments.
Maybe the U.S. upvoted that to discredit China /j
China gains nothing by Mideast conflict.
Israel - clearly does not care about things like democracy and human rights.
I can see them drawing closer to China.
Russia arguably gains via ties with Iran and decrease of U.S. influence in the region. But, as far as news, reporting, information are concerned, it’s pretty irrelevant, if there’s actual propaganda then let it be shown and debunked, and even Iranian RT right now is barely saying anything surprising to anyone who’s been watching what’s happening on the ground.
“You’re crazy to believe your own eyes!”
Stupid thing people don’t they like killing?
When the October 7 attack happened my teenagers noticed the one sided media and hamfisted pro Israel propaganda asked what’s really going on. Today’s kids are getting constant propaganda and advertising. They’re not immune but they recognize it and bristle.
When I was a teenager and Yitzhak Rabin was murdered i bought the anti palastine rhetoric that followed for an embarrassingly long time. And we knew that it was Netanyahu. Well, I don’t think we knew until later that he was aware that night of what he was doing. But we knew it was his follower who pulled the trigger.
Israel has already killed 10-20x as many people as died in the Hamas attack, and they’re just getting started.
The amount of pro Palestinian support is overwhelming everywhere. Only newspapers and Reddit bots and paid shills are still spreading IDF propaganda. The rest of the world sees israel for the Nazi’s they are.
I think the Israeli government is authoritarian, and their scorched earth tactics against Palestinians are war crimes, but you’re not doing the cause any favors by invoking the Nazis. Criticize their actual behavior.
The problem is their behavior and rhetoric towards Palestine resembles a sentiment shared by the OG Nazis
The problem is when you mention Nazis to Jews, the first things they’ll think of are Zyklon B, Babi Yar, the piles of children’s shoes at Auschwitz, Mengele, that sort of thing.
And while what’s going on in Israel is terrible, it’s not Mengele terrible, Babi Yar terrible, or Treblinka terrible. So they write you off as just another antisemite, rather than listening to your point.
And yet that was only the very end. The stuff that came before that might as well be a mirror to the way Israel is treating the Palestinians.
No, not really. Nazi Germany lasted from 1933-1945.
From 1933 to 1939, things were mostly non-lethal: boycotting and vandalizing shops, banning Jews from public service or practicing law, harassing Jews, etc. The basic idea was to get Jews to emigrate out of Germany.
The first open ghettos were established in 1939, while the massacres really started in 1941.
If you’re going to compare Gaza to part of Nazi Germany, the best comparison is to the closed ghettos that were established in 1940, like the Warsaw ghetto. The period between the establishment of the closed ghettos and the beginning of the mass killings was way, way shorter than the mass killings. Of the 12 year span of Nazi Germany, the best comparison is to a period that lasted for about a year or so, 7 years in.
Nazi Germany really isn’t a great historical comparison to Israel. Honestly, a better comparison is to the US’s treatment of Native Americans, though it’s still not a perfect analogy. The dream of Israel’s far right isn’t to murder every last Palestinian, it’s manifest destiny; an Israel stretching from the river to the sea even if there’s a few small reservations on it.
Netanyahu and his cohorts have explicitly said they believe they need to kill every last Palestinian. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/11/benjamin-netanyahu-amalek-israel-palestine-gaza-saul-samuel-old-testament/
I read this, and from what I can tell, he explicitly said they believe they need to kill every last member of Hamas, and a different unrelated person wrote an essay about how they need to kill all Palestinians?
Jesus Christ what a fuckng psycho
You need to look at what’s happening in West Bank.
When the Israelis impose a system of racial domination on Palestinians that is objectively worse than Apartheid, I’d say you needn’t bother handwringing about Israelis getting their feelings hurt. Fascists is always an alternative though - they’re politicians have used it themselves.
Netanyahu himself has made racist jokes favouring white Jews over the north african immigrants, so while ‘white supremacist’ also works at that point, you’re back to just saying ‘Nazi’.
Why is it worse rhan apartheid?
Because Jews don’t need Palestinians like White South Africans needed Black people for low wage jobs. So they can genocide them without a thought.
No I meant what evidence do you have that what they are actually doing is worse than apartheid?
Chiefly Nelson Mandela’s own words on the matter and Noam Chomsky’s. Other South Africans. The two-tier colonial system in place and TCM’s recent testimony on what he saw in the occupied territories was enlightening too.
A craven terrorist attack caused a military response that has claimed 11,000 lives to date, with a substantial proportion of those lives being women and children. This is a horrible thing. Hamas and the Israeli government can both go fuck themselves for the misery they have caused.
That said, AFAIK nobody is sending Israeli troops in to round up Palestinians and systematically incinerate them until all Palestinians are dead.
6,000,000 Jews suffered that fate.
The bombing of Dresden took 25,000 German lives. Nobody called that an attempted genocide.
Perspective is important.
In a context where we have the lies about the hospitals having tunnels under them, that 40 non-existent babies were beheaded and where some key facts about Oct 7 have somewhat unravelled, how far would you even bother policing the words of people wishing for a liberated Palestinian?
The Israelis and their supporters are also notorious liars and frequently try to claim that Muslims or brown people were responsible for the Holocaust in Europe.
They’ve bombed civilians before and the intelligence they send tend to be garbage according to EU after they looked through the reams of documents the Israelis sent them. As an occupier, Israel behaves like a country at war all the time, they lie, kill and cheat perpetually.
I have never heard of Israelis by trying to blame the Holocaust on Arabs. On the other hand. .
I’ll verify that my Arabic family are wildly antisemitic. They don’t denigrate Jewish individuals, mock their appearance, call them filth or anything in that vein. But they’re not just anti-Zionists either. They believe Jews control the world through a shadow network of conspirators. And when you believe that, it fits right in that they must have manufactured a Holocaust to win sympathy.
I think it all stems from anti-Zionism, though. They see a tiny country holding out against the entire Arab world, with the backing of powerful westerners, and their explanation is that the Israelis must have America and the EU dancing on puppet strings. It’s like when a foe pulls off a stunning victory and their enemies say they must have cut a deal with the devil because how else do you explain it. I don’t believe any of that, though I do find the American military support for Israel totally sus and wrong.
Jews were in high positions in the Arab world and iirc lived well. Much of the blame for the rise in anti-semitism is almost purely down to Zionism. Jews came to be seen as colonial collaboraters with the great powers against that region. In Algeria they literally were - the French were able to create a two-tier colonial society by giving Jewish Algerians who were native to Algeria citizenship and denying Muslims the same by claiming cultural incompatibility. Hence, Jews became a colonial force in that country.
In Iraq, Zionists terrorised the Arab (Iraqi!) Jewish community there by bombing Synagogues and cultural centers and collaborated with Iraqi nationalists to force Iraqi Jews into leaving for Israel.
So there are different experiences here, but almost all is down to colonialism and zionism.
Yep great insights. Thank you for adding.
Lol when were these Jews in Iraq bombed and who exactly are the zionists who did the bombing?
Imagine you walked into the camps and saw the smattering of walking skeletons that were left from the multiple thousands of people who had preceded them into the gas chambers or ovens.
I think it’s hard to really imagine what level of trauma that would cause, and how shocking it would be to see those images.
I think that is the foundation of a powerful bond between the West and Israel, and it’s not going anywhere anytime soon.
I find it extremely troubling that Netanyahu and his cronies have said that the only solution to the issues they are having is to exterminate all Palestinians (assuming that quote is accurate) and I do think that their actions are horrifying and deserve criticism, but that’s the government. I have no issue with the people of Israel. I believe that in part these actions are Bibi covering his own ass for not stopping nor even anticipating a massive attack from a known enemy. I understand his desire to root out Hamas, but there has to be a way to do so with more accuracy and less civilian misery and death.
He has said Hitler didn’t intend to destroy Jews until a Muslim told him to.
His son posts Nazi memes on Facebook (featuring Greenwald).
He is also suspiciously happy that his son married a white Scandinavian woman.
He made racist jokes/comments about north african jews in their military and that white jewish officers must lead them.
Wait what came out about the October 7 attack?
Half the people on the list of deaths Israel put out had Lt and Sgt on their names. So they’re soldiers. And the official number has gone down from over 1400 to 1200.
Jesus Christ, so 600 civilians? And I’m guessing it’s over 10k in Palestine now? I’ll have to look for a source to verify this but if you have one in the meantime that’d be appreciated.
I’m saying half because of the list they put out, but apparently it looks to be 700-800 civilians when counted. The list they originally put out on twitter was an image.
These are all still Israel’s numbers, who are notorious liars. And we also know they were shooting and bombing hostages along with Hamas fighters indiscriminately during the battle.
You can see ‘half’ the image have Lt and Sgt on their names, sometimes in full. https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1722045168382021929
The comparisons to the Nazis are actually inescapable. I struggle to think of a centrally orchestrated and mechanized system of apartheid/oppression and now genocide that’s more similar.
Godwin’s Law was repealed in 2016.
“Godwin’s Law” only said that the comparison to Nazis becomes inescapable the longer a conversation goes (not the common interpretation “whoever says Nazi first loses”). If I remember right he actually went back later and said it’s perfectly fine to draw the Nazi analogy to fascist states.
The Israelis have set up a systematic means of rounding up and murdering people until their entire race is removed from existence?
I hadn’t heard.
…you mean at the military checkpoints where Palestinians routinely disappear? How about the fact that Israel conducts human medical experiments on prisoners. Or the systematic rape of Palestinian women. How about the systematic attacks on Palestinian infrastructure that leaves 95% of Gaza without access to clean water. And that was before this current mess.
Grow the fuck up and open your eyes. Israelis are straight up evil.
The Israeli government is straight up evil, maybe.
The Israeli people have been targets of precise statements from multiple neighbors over the years telling them they would be exterminated as soon as the opportunity arose.
Put yourself in that position and tell me you wouldn’t support a right wing militant government that ran on a platform of hard borders and strong military.
How many wars of aggression have been waged against Israel since its founding? How many terrorist attacks? If the nations surrounding them put down their weapons and accepted them, there would be peace in the region. If the Israelis put down their weapons they would be murdered en masse.
How would you like a populace that came within a hair’s breadth of systematic extermination to react when they move to an area and are immediately painted as liars by neighbors who are Holocaust deniers and express the desire to finish the job?
Also if your argument is strong enough there’s no need to add that last part. It makes you seem weak and devalues any merit in your words, of which there is plenty. Nobody wants to see people getting hurt, but to fail to differentiate between the Israeli government and the Israeli people, and to ignore the situation they are in and the precursor to the establishment of the state of Israel, is a mistake.
They chose for religious reasons to slowly invade and genocide a people in an area that was extremely hostile to them.
Historically Jewish people have been given land in Spain and Italy to found their own nation. Both times they sold it and invaded Israel in history.
I have zero sympathy for them, because historically, they’ve been the invading aggressors to the region because they feel they have some sort of religious right to it, and since I’m anti-theist and believe religion is the root of all evil seeing both sides die in this conflict is kind of desirable to me.
I understand as a fellow atheist, but I would just say try to have some compassion for people as a whole, even if they believe in stupid sky daddys.
Children get indoctrinated into Islam and Judaism and inherit this conflict and its derived suffering from their parents. As an anti-theist, you should be able to see them as victims, rather than see the conflict as something positive.
They turned Gaza into a concentration camp.
As Jews, they should absolutely know better.
The Nazis forced Jews into ghettos. Gaza is a ghetto that Palestinians are forced to live in.
Zionists will not however, directly kill every Palestinian. They will indirectly try to kill every Palestinian by colonizing every last inch of land from the Palestinians. The ones that immigrate away will be too scattered to maintain a coherent ethnicity, and eventually their culture will be erased.
So, while practically speaking they’re not as bad as Nazis, they are as effective as Nazis, if not more so.
I’ve still got plenty of friends who support Israel over here in the states, including basically everyone conservative I know.
Interesting, I actually know a couple conservatives that are anti globalism, which justified their anti Israel stance. However, the conservatives I know that are party aligned due to religious preferences… that’s another story
They’re not “anti-globalism”. They don’t even know what that means. They’re just parroting Alex Jones. I don’t like globalism, but conservatives who go off about globalism are actually just being anti-semitic and using Israel as shorthand for “the Jewish secret ruling class”.
Which is encouraging. It’s been a relatively silent genocide for decades, and while it’s good to see people waking up, it’s almost too late. Kinda like climate change.
Pretty shitty genocide if the population keeps growing…
It’s grotesque to me people that keep repeating this. The accusations of genocide almost universally relate to after Oct. 7. And population growth over a 60 year stretch does not discredit incitement to genocide or actions taken to attempt genocide.
And ethnic cleansing is still genocide. Palestinians are refugees the world over because of Israel. Some stuck in Egypt, the Sinai desert, some in Europe and others internally displaced stuck in Gaza originating from other places in Israel. It all stems from the 1948 Nakba where Jewish terrorist gangs began a massacre and campaign of ethnic cleansing in Palestine.
You mean the less than 1 million Jews in the British Mandate in 1948 who accepted the UN resolution for 2 States and were attacked by the Arabs in the British Mandate and all the neighboring Arab countries? I don’t think you know what ethnic cleansing means. SMH
As someone who stands mostly in the middle, I rarely comment on this issue because every second poster calls anyone that has even the mildest sympathy for Israel’s situation a Nazi.
You people are tiresome and it’s honestly not worth ‘debating’ with you.
An ethno-state is based on race superiority that is committing genocide to expand their lebensraum by dehumanizing their enemies and calling for the indiscriminate slaughter of people of a certain race by locking them all up in a giant concentration camp.
Now where the fuck did I hear they one before? Oh yeah the Nazi’s. It’s almost comical how much israel is a copy of Nazi Germany.
You are correct that I will call every israel sympathizer a Nazi because they are Nazi’s by practically everyx single definition.
Sorry, didn’t read past ‘ethno-state’. Pretty clear where you were going from there. Nice talking with you.
The English language is great. If your friend was recently kicked out of their house by a Nazi and is arguing with them about it, you can see if things get violent and call out “hey, Nazi debater!” and they will both turn their heads, unsure if you’re talking to them or the other guy. Hilarity will ensue from this small confusion, and all will end well.
That having been said, the Nazi will still conveniently forget all their country’s history, will declare they are the “pure” or “chosen” ones, and proceed to cleanse the ones that don’t fit their world view, including your friend.
I stand for the people. I support Israel, but not it’s far right government that wants to kill all palestinian people and take their lands, but at the same time, I support Palestine, but not it’s extremist terrorist leaders.
Wars are fought between two or more governments for their own goals and is a competition who cal kill the other side the most (including it’s civilians).
You can support a country without supporting their government, however people sometimes tend to be lazy and just say “fuck Israel” instead of saying “fuck the government of Israel”, or say “fuck Palestine” by being ignorant instead of saying “fuck HAMAS”.
Innocent people should not be vilified for just wanting to live their lives in peace.
Almost like when you take religion out of the picture it’s one country committing genocide against another which is never okay for any reason. Israel can scream “but muh anti-semitism” all they want but it’s a scapegoat. Ignore Jewish/Muslim backgrounds and look at what’s really going on. It’s nothing but a disgusting land grab and genocide that’s been going on since WW2.
The world would 100% be a better place without Israel, and that’s nothing to do with their religion. The country itself is evil and corrupt. They are bigoted and hypocritical. Israel deserves no sympathy or support. Out of all the bullshit I’ve seen happen in the middle east the past few decades, Israel is definitely the most abhorrent and repulsive source of conflict.
The world would 100% be a better place without Israel, and that’s nothing to do with their religion.
The world would also be a better place without Islam, but how realistic or ethical is it to seriously call for such a thing?
You can say “the world would be better without Israel” without actually calling for the eradication of the country. I think creating Israel was a historical mistake, but that doesn’t make it a mistake you can just paint over. Solutions must come from acknowledging the current reality and the innocent people who live at both sides of the border and their rights and dignity.
You can say “the world would be better without Israel” without actually calling for the eradication of the country.
As I can also say that the world would be better without Islam without actually calling for anyone’s death. All worshippers of that religion should simply become apostates and no-one would needlessly die. But it’s another thing to force this against their will, which you would be doing in both cases.
Land grab? Can you explain? It looks like the status quo has been maintained since 1967 or so?
Israel has allowed settlers to continuously claim land from the West Bank, enclosing its territory from the Palestinians who already lived there, preventing the Palestinian Authority from imprisoning settlers or kicking them out, and refusing to pursue legal action against settlers while illegally imprisoning Palestinians for retaliating when they see their land getting stolen without anyone defending them.
Ignoring all the ongoing colonization, didn’t they just take Jerusalem a couple years ago when Trump said they could put their embassy there?
What do you think about Hamas? Why do they exist and what is their actual agenda? Is it really at the very top simply helmed by limousine-riding desert kings in Quatar?
Hamas is as bad as Isreal, but they are Isreal’s own creation. Most Palestinians don’t support Hamas just like most Isrealis don’t support their own government. It is two governments trying to commit genocide on the others civilians. Their are no good guys here. Just thousands of innocent civilians being massacred on both sides. The main difference is the US has decided to give one of these governments committing genocide the most advanced weapons available and practically no governments are even trying to help the Palestinians anymore. Not to mention hamas is commiting genocide to take back land the palestinians had a 100 years ago while the isrealis are commiting genocide to take back land they had 2000 years ago while pretending the palestians never even existed and spouting off racist revisionist history.
Yeah, Hamas isn’t as bad as Israel, it’s literally a resistance movement to the people that ethnically cleansed their population from their land and kept them in a concentration camp for two decades. The unbalanced condemnation tbph is the result of a concerted Israeli/Western propaganda campaign to obscure the context and nature of the attacks, including the hundreds of Palestinian people killed in 2023 before Oct. 7, and more fundamentally, the fact that Israel has been keeping 2.4M people in a high-tech concentration camp for the last two decades.
The atrocity claims against Hamas from Oct. 7 have some serious evidentiary issues at this point, even including some unknown number of the civilian deaths being attributable to the IDF (literally firing at, shelling and bombing Israeli citizens - though to be clear, there is video of Hamas shooting civilians as well). You compare this to the inhuman genocide being levied against Palestinians now - food, water, electricity, fuel, medicine being cut off for 5 weeks at this point, likely upwards of 20,000 civilians killed, at least half of the buildings in Gaza damaged or destroyed, attacks on hospitals, schools, refugee camps, ambulances, journalists, aid workers, without legitimate substantiation of their repurposing for military purposes - these are crimes against humanity. There is no equivalence here.
Hamas shouldn’t be even compared to Israel. Hamas is a fucked up religious/fascist terrorist organization, whereas Israel is one of the happiest and modern western countries in the world. In no way can it be said that Hamas is even on the same scale when talking about evil.
How is Isreal not also a “fucked up religious/fascist terrorist organization”?
You describe Isreal as happy and modern as some kind of defense, but having overwhelming military superiorty over neighbors, taking their land, and having extremely close ties with modernized western countries would cause that.
How exactly is Isreal not religious (state religion is Judaism). How is it not terroristic (you kill one of their citizens they kill 10 of your citizens and take your land)? How is it not fascist when Gaza is literally a concentration camp for 2 million people? Two wrongs don’t make a right, and having bigger guns certainly doesn’t make them righteous.
I wonder if the fact they aren’t muslim or as brown makes them better to you?
having overwhelming military superiorty over neighbors
They didn’t start that way. They built that capability out of very real necessity, coming many times pretty close to annihilation.
taking their land
By internationally agreed decisions, and after winning wars, I suppose?
and having extremely close ties with modernized western countries
Yes, that’s a good idea. Every country should do that.
How exactly is Isreal not religious (state religion is Judaism)
State religion is perhaps an alien concept for Americans (which I guesstimate you are), but it’s a pretty normal thing in Europe. It doesn’t say much about religiousity, although clearly Israel has more crazy in that department than Europe, but also quite a lot less than typical muslim countries.
As for Israel, the largest religious group (33% in 2016) is “Judaism/Hiloni”, which is essentially a secularist/nonobserving version of Judaism. The actual number of secularists might be even actually higher.
How is it not terroristic (you kill one of their citizens they kill 10 of your citizens and take your land)?
Terrorism isn’t defined by numbers. It’s defined by tactics and intentions.
How is it not fascist when Gaza is literally a concentration camp for 2 million people?
It’s literally not a concentration camp for 2 million people. You need to look up concentration camps.
I wonder if the fact they aren’t muslim or as brown makes them better to you?
Color has nothing do with it. Islamistic terrorism is a significant enemy of human civilization, however. That indeed does make them better for me.
State religion is perhaps an alien concept for Americans (which I guesstimate you are), but it’s a pretty normal thing in Europe.
Of the Union’s 27 states, only three have an official state religion, these being Denmark (Church of Denmark), Greece (Church of Greece), and Malta (Catholic Church).
Out of 27 countries, only three have official religions and they’re pretty small. Don’t talk shit out of your ass maybe?
Where did you grab that bullshit data from, ChatGPT? I live in a EU country that has an official state religion, and it’s none of those three countries. Or is there some semantic thing going on here? Is it not an official state religion even though it’s directly funded by the government, and government officials attend official religious events regularly?
Don’t talk shit out of your ass maybe?
Right back at you, buddy.
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The PA has power in the west bank, but not in Gaza (where Hamas is in charge). They’re not a very effective government, but they don’t seem to have genocidal intent either.
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Do we really need to argue which murderers are slightly less murdery?
The people in charge on both sides are doing their people a disservice by killing a shit load of people which in turn leads to the other side killing even more people.
Is there a surgical removal that could ameliorate this? Like is there an actual “Who” that needs to go if there’s to be any progress? I feel like this situation could use a panel of new eyes to help usher in the future
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Except Israel is a country that wants to live in peace and Hamas has IT IN THEIR FUCKING CHARTER that they want to kill all Jews.
And when Hamas actually acts on their charter, the whole world goes shocked-Pikachu-face and condemns Israel for self defense and not agreeing to just be killed
The current charter says they would accept the 1969 borders.
No. Hamas’ charter was written at a time when Israel was committing atrocities in Palestine. It was written in anger by about half a dozen people. Noam Chomsky explains this pretty well. The original charter is basically irrevelent and has basically been disavowed by Hamas.
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Listen to what Chomsky has to say on the matter. If you can’t find it, I’ll see later.
If you listen to what Sam Harris has to say on the matter, then it’s a deal.
“living in peace” is not invading someone’s land, taking their homes, slaughtering them, and putting them in a concentration camp for decades while killing kids when they retaliate.
You mean returning to the homeland after the Holocaust to a country as per UN resolutions , self-defense from terrorism in civilian areas (like suicide bombers and rockets into cities), and unilaterally disengaging from the Gaza Strip in 2005 while giving millions of dollars to a corrupt system that embezzled most of what wasn’t used to build weapons and terrorism infrastructure and teach children to love death and murdering Jews in their beds like they did on October 7th
You don’t get the use the homeland excuse by saying “oh well we were here 2,000 years ago”.
IN THEIR FUCKING CHARTER
Have you read it? It doesn’t say that.
Wow you literally went so “whataboutist” that you actually say “what about” in your sentence.
do you genuinely think israel wants this tiny stretch of land, even at the cost of all of this(thousands of israelis dead, more soldiers die every day, rockets and terror attacks from lebanon, syria and yemen, and all the public backlash) I’ll tell you a hint, they truly don’t and if they did, they won’t take it this slowly, and this carefully not to hurt civilians if they truly just wanted the tiny piece of land, it would have been so kuch easier to just indiscriminately level the entire place (without the need for a ground invasion)
I know I’m not gonna change any minds here as people like you who have already decided israel is the culmination of all evil won’t back down from that belief that easily, but just try to not assume every israeli born is a racist Palestinian hater, and try to think why would they go through all of this, what do they stand to gain or to lose, assuming of course they are rational human beings
btw if it’s genocide for the past 56 years, they are truly really really bad at committing genocide
Yes, the leaders of Isreal want palestine removed from the map. They are not taking it carefully. They are indiscriminately leveling Gaza right now. Please ask the 4000 dead palestinian children how careful the Isrealis have been.
Wanting to commit genocide and having the political capital to get away with it are two different things. I know several isrealis that felt their country was commiting genocide and I know for fact that not all Isrealis are bad. Criticism of Isreal is not an attack on all isrealis just like criticism of Hamas is not an attack on all palestinians.
Please ask the 4000 dead palestinian children how careful the Isrealis have been.
Statistic provided by the terrorism organization Israel is trying to wipe out for the good of everyone on this planet.
if you were right, a ground invasion would have never happened they would just drop a few very large bombs and be done with it without endangering more israeli soldiers
Gaza’s population stands at around 2 million it’s one of the most densely populated places on earth i feel like if they wanted after 40 days there would have been much much more than 4000 dead Palestinian children more in the area of 400000
also i still don’t get why in your view israel wants Palestine removed from the map, if we established it’s not the tiny piece of land itself
Why do they want to commit genocide
With the current situation prior to the attack how much was palestine costing Israel? Gaza cannot supply itself with water, electricity, or food. Israel needs to maintain border security too. Without palestine these costs go away or at least decrease significantly. Israel has already stated they believe this attack justifies them cutting off water, electricity, and food supplies in perpetuity. This in affect will kill most of the 2 million and will cost them less political capitol than bombing the Palestinians.
So why do they want to commit genocide? Money, power, revenge, racism, and religion are the main reasons, but they vary from person to person obviously.
Try to separate the civilians from Hamas, and yeah, starve the terrorists and supply aid to the civilians they have removed from harm’s way.
According to your faulty logic, it would be a hell of a lot easier to literally bomb everything without warning nor humanitarian corridors
You will never ever have a productive conversation with racists or terrorist sympathizers.
Getting your death count from a terrorist organization known for lying and inflating numbers is ridiculous.
When Hamas hide and build a shitload of terrorist infrastructure in civilian areas, you evidently get a lot of leveling happening, destroying that terrorist infrastructure.
Israel does more than any other country to minimize civilian deaths. But I’m sure you know about Hamas using civilians as human shields and outright shooting Gaza civilians trying to get away from the area
The health ministry is a medical organization, regardless of being under Hamas rule.
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Just like Shifa Hospital isn’t used as a terrorist base.
Terrorists threaten and infilitrate even legitimate organizations in a corrupt government
For the number of times this specific hospital is used as justification you’d think they would have produced actual evidence for that claim by now.
Just like Shifa Hospital isn’t used as a terrorist base.
Despite the raid ~24 hours ago, and the release, deletion and then re-release of an “uncut” video of the hospital since then, this absolutely remains to be proven. If anything the burden of proof has gone up, after the absolute bullshit they just published about it and about Rantisi hospital.
Also it’s “Al Shifa”, as in, “The Healing”.
They want the land and the $500 billion worth of natural gas in the sea
have you looked at the territorial waters? in no way do gaza contest them in the ocean
1h, 0 downvotes.
Good luck buddy.
I’d say they’re good at it considering they’re getting away with it.
A broken tiktok is right twice a day…
As far as I can tell, neither government here has the moral high ground…and I chose the word “government” there for a reason.
It is my understanding from very far away only able to see through Lie-O-Vision that two governments that hate each other because religion are basically taking it out on civilians who just want to live their lives. It’s a tragedy that has basically nothing to do with me yet it does cast my eyes toward my own capitol city with a bit of a suspicious squint.
I’m convinced this whole tiktok is manipulating the algorithm thing is actually US propaganda.
Here’s how you actually “manipulate the algorithm.”
1: take up residency in the comments, and at the same time start a few basic accts that don’t say anything too controversial (day in the life kinda stuff, thirst traps, etc). Establish a basic presence
2: once you amass a following, you start with pretty basic stuff lots of young people agree with - housing/healthcare reform, work reform, etc
3: an important part a lot of people miss - have your own team troll your comments. Stir up shit. The goal is to get people riled up, not move the needle in any specific direction
4: throw out something big (it’s been confirmed that Russia is behind distribution on TikTok of OBL’s “Letter to America” recently). Fight on both sides, tagging in as much of the greater sphere of commenters as you can.
That’s it. That’s all anyone’s doing. Just do this over and over and you eventually drive people crazy.
They did the exact same thing in 2016, they did it in 2020 with BLM, they did it with Ukraine. It’s nothing new
Sounds pretty convincing, but you lost me in the end. Who did “exact same thing” in 2016, 2020, and 2022? Are you implying that Russia and/or China were trying to increase the harm done to the US that way? I’m quite at a loss here
Yes. This is the new age of psychological warfare, and has been recorded occurring at these instances, among others.
100%
Russian trolling is pretty well documented at this point. They overthrew several Baltic nations and bought a lot of breathing room during the 2016 election.
It’s been all over the news and stuff.
US propaganda is so, so bad. Russia and China are awful, but US is no better in this regard.
A little from column A, a little from column B?
Have you seen Chinese TikTok vs America TikTok? It’s wild. The Chinese TikTok has videos of scientists and musicians and engineers all tackling major problems. It’s inspirational. The American TikTok is absolutely fucked. There’s clearly heavy algorithm manipulation. At the very least, we know China could make American TikTok not terrible and they choose not to.
The Chinese TikTok has videos of scientists and musicians and engineers all tackling major problems. It’s inspirational
My TikTok FYP is various scientists/science commenters, stand up comedians, chubby goth girls dancing, Magic The Gathering card reviews, and swinger shit.
If you engage only with things you like, you’ll only see things you like.
Yeah, Western Tiktok is just more liberal lol. If you don’t like it, go and live in… China?
Stupid lizard brains are too easily tricked with tribalism and anger though. It takes a real conscious effort to curate your feed like that.
Any nuanced opinion on Gaza gets trashed because both “teams” view you as the enemy. You’re always pushed towards absolutism.
I agree with the latter, but I don’t think it takes a lot of effort to curate a TikTok FYP.
Yeah you literally just like videos and hit not interested on shit you don’t like
A lot of the best sci-fi is coming out of China these days. People who like to theorize about these things point to a population, much like America in the post war Baby Boom, seeing for themselves the benefits science can bring to their lives as China pretty rapidly develops, and being fascinated by what could be next.
So you might need to accept that the most popular trending American social media is venal and insipid because the average American wants to see venal and insipid, while the Chinese population might just be interested in things that interest them.
TikTok is banned in India so there’s way less anti-muslim sentiment on the platform.
Yes, let’s combat racism with more racism, way to go.
How is this racist? Behavior of BJP mob on Reddit was observable by how r/worldnews looked like depending on time of the day.
Oh so it wasn’t just me who felt that was feeling off in r/worldnews. The comments are horrific at times.
r/worldnews is some of the most diverse hivemind of -isms and -phobias I’ve seen concentrated in one subreddit. The flavour just depends on the time of day.
Turns out a lot of very reasonable people actually did leave Reddit over the summer and now the trolls and crazies have an amplified voice.
I’m so glad to see other people mention this because damn that sub has been wild lately.
55% of Islamophobic tweets originated in India: https://apo.org.au/node/318935
Racism is when you don’t want muslim people to be oppressed and murdered? 🤔
Islam isn’t a race, and Indian Muslims aren’t Arab…they’re Indian, like Pakistanis are Indian and not Arab…
I’m pro-human beings and opposed to killing and maiming people who are trying to enjoy their life.
They’re just trying to survive. We’ve already made it impossible for them to enjoy life
Yet we’re not seeing calls for Hamas to step down and let innocent Palestinians live in some version of peace that can never be known under Islamic jihad…
Which I find very weird. The lack of conversation surrounding the admitted goals of the leaders of the Palestinian people is something that needs to be part of any conversation.
It’s a false dichotomy to condition ceasing the extermination of a whole innocent population to protests towards a terrorist organization. Israel does not need to bomb several hospitals to stop Hamas. There are other ways to go about stopping terrorists.
Maybe you don’t see many calls at Hamas because people are catching up with how wholesale persecution and extermination of people is often justified by pointing to a few malicious individuals that are part of that population.
Israel does not need to bomb several hospitals to stop Hamas. There are other ways to go about stopping terrorists.
How do you know this? Are you an expert in counter-terrorism or warfare?
I am not stupid and I’m capable of empathy. Really, do you need a reason to understand that bombing hospitals full of innocent civilians is a horrible thing?
I also know enough recent history to have some inkling that widespread bombing might not be that effective at stopping a terrorist movement. Say, like US wars against Afghanistan and Iraq.
Really, do you need a reason to understand that bombing hospitals full of innocent civilians is a horrible thing?
I don’t understand how being a horrible thing relates to this discussion. Things can be horrible and necessary at the same time. Things might even be horrible and the best course of action at the same time.
Consistently groups that do horrible, entirely excessive atrocities insist that they are necessary and vital. It does not mean that they are, and it’s definitely something you should not assume blindly, or at all.
There needs a lot more than “might” to even begin to justify it. Then again, might alone is often used to get away with it.
There’s no extermination. Quit getting your talking points from Tiktok and Twitter.
Do you have anything but dismissive snark or are you going to pretend continuous bombing of civilian buildings is some sort of surgical targeted action.
There’s a pretty big difference between stupid declarations about things that simply aren’t true, and trying to start a conversation. I just assumed with an axiom like that there was no conversation to be had.
Clearly there’s no conversation to be had, but because you want to pretend whatever you don’t like to hear is false and stupid, without even trying to offer any reason for it.
They can fuck off to any other 20 Arab/Muslim countries. How many other Jewish countries are there?
Oh yeah, somebody goes to you and tells you to move to diffent country or they’ll drop a bomb on you and your family, I’m sure you’ll happy to comply. Whatever religion and ethnicity you are, I’m sure you can just go anywhere vaguely similar and know everyone on a first-name basis.
This is neither a matter of handing the whole region exclusively to palestinians or to israelis. Justifying it because “there are other arab/muslim countries” is such a frankly childish way to justify a conflict as serious as this. Needing to say this is almost ridiculous, but a region doesn’t need to be populated by only a single kind of people.
Because they’re not going to do that. You can’t call them terrorists and expect logical reasonable action or reaction.
The Palestinian people by in large did not vote Hamas in, over 50% of the people in Gaza were not alive during the last election.
Excuse the tangent but you made me look it up. >50% of Americans weren’t eligible to vote in 2000 but apparently I need to answer for the Iraq War for the rest of my friggin’ life like that was my personal decision.
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Because they’re not going to do that. You can’t call them terrorists and expect logical reasonable action or reaction.
So we shouldn’t call them terrorists and hope they stop killing people? I’m sorry that doesn’t make any sense. Israel isn’t about to stop their war on Hamas, yet it doesn’t stop the world criticising them.
The Palestinian people by and large did not vote Hamas in, over 50% of the people in Gaza were not alive during the last election.
While technically true, almost 70% of Gazans support armed attacks on Israeli civilians.](https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll 89 English Full Text September 2023.pdf) I know it doesn’t fit the oppressor/oppressed narrative, but the vast majority of people in Gaza support what Hamas is doing. If elections were held today, according to that same poll, they would vote Hamas back in.
It doesn’t make sense no, it’s also not at all what I said but neat projection.
That’s an opinion poll for a population that generally do not answer and those that do answer have to think about how that might get out and what extremists might do about that.
Ed sample population sub 2000… Jesus dude did you vet this at all lol.
Hamas is a jihadist organization though…
If they don’t represent the majority maybe they should hold elections and let a party that represents the majority take the lead?
Sure, and Israel is a Zionist nation what’s your point.
Yes the terrorist organization is going to relinquish control… Yeah.
I don’t see why this matters at all when Hamas wont allow elections and is an authoritarian government.
That’s quite literally the point.
It doesn’t matter that they didn’t vote for Hamas because it was not possible and will never be possible. Why is that the point?
To me, this seems exactly like the other guys point.
Are you paying attention to the conversation or a single comment you’ve chosen to take issue with?
Ah, there’s the answer, you aren’t paying attention.
Theres only 2 other comments in this thread.
Everyone’s pro-palestine. They’re just fucking people caught in the middle of some retarded bullshit. Every time someone gets killed, that entire family is probably radicalized, and they’re right to be.
Israel has unrelentingly taken the worst possible approach to the problem, having learned nothing from their own experience. They’ve made the worst possible mess of it, which is no surprise considering it was made by a bunch of people trying to make the Bible come true like dipshits.
Every time someone gets killed, that entire family is probably radicalized, and they’re right to be.
This is why I say Hamas playing the entire world like a fucking puppet. Sure, the individual fighters are probably not happy they kicked a hornets nest but the people who planned the attack I’d be fucking shocked if they were anywhere near Gaza.
Israel’s anger is justified, the attack from Hamas was truly heinous, but holy shit Israel’s leadership acted in the most predictable manner which is horrifying the world that many who would have supported Israel earlier this year is now wondering why countries like the US is involved, especially when the fight with Russia and Ukraine is going on and having trouble getting support. I’m sure many Palestinians did not want anything to do with Hamas, but every family member killed is likely to bring another one over to the fold. The US promptly moved in behind to support Israel, and bent everything to get the US citizens in Israel home immediately, while sending over a carrier group to keep any other country from getting involved… however let US citizens who were in Gaza when all this went down remain there for a month until Egypt finally opened a corridor, citizens that probably now trust the US just a little bit less along with those that payed attention to it.
The obvious plan is to be a destabilization measure, and I fear it will certainly be that. I just hate the feeling of those that know history are doomed to watch others repeat it.
IMO there are big risks consuming news & opinion from any single source.
Whether it’s the CCP manipulating the TikTok algorithm, Russia buying ad space on Facebook, or American conglomerates pushing narratives on western mainstream media, there will be implicit biases everywhere.
The only real answer is to get news from multiple sources with diverging perspectives, try to find where facts overlap, challenge your own implicit biases, and form a perspective in line w/ your values.
Seeing America blame TikTok for pushing propaganda is the pot calling the kettle black – and honestly more of a distraction than anything else.
The real important issue is that people are dying, and the existing power structures are doing jack shit to stop it.
I wouldn’t trust TikTok
no one with a functioning brain does. at the corporate or content level.
Which is why so many americans are obsessed with it, since the overwhelming bulk of americans are fucking idiots.
Thanks A_Random_Idiot
I may be a random idiot, but I dont have tiktok on my phone, or social media accounts.
Which makes me a cut above the rest.
Maybe it’s not so much they’re “pro-Palestine” but anti-genocide.
I never would have thought that “anti-killing-people” would be a controversial position to take, but here we are.
My ancestors since the 1700s were part of a pacifist tradition so I’m well aware of how controversial it is lol
Does that pacifist tradition have a name, or better yet a Wikipedia page?
They were Mennonites who initially migrated largely due to increasing mandatory conscription in the Russian Empire (now Ukraine), a lot of them went to Weimar Republic then to Canada, so really good timing. In WW2 they were contentious objectors and were conscripted to civilian service, which apparently my grandpa loved.
Other side were Merchant Navy marines and got royally fucked after the war, those vets weren’t even recognized for their service until the 90s.
I think you’d be surprised how many people are pro-Palestinian liberation struggle. And for a good reason. Sometimes the liberation fight may result in war crimes which we are all against, but that doesn’t discredit the liberation struggle itself. If anything, maybe the colonisers should stop oppressing and mass murdering the people if they don’t want them to react so violently.
when the majority content type dominates the platform
surprise
pikachualgorithmI don’t think an algorithm is responsible for the fact that most sane people are generally against genocide. People being pro-Palestine in this specific situation is a humanitarian response and should not be causing any amount of concern because it is the morally correct position here.
HOWEVER, the fact that we just witnessed the fucking letter to america go viral on tiktok, wherein a soul crushing amount of people publicly stated they agree with a fucking jihadist manifesto, is cause for a massive amount of concern. Tiktok definitely needs to face consequences for letting that happen. We also can’t excuse the audience for that type of behaviour. Whether it came from a deliberate propaganda campaign, or a sketchy algorithm, or just mass stupidity, audience members need to be better. If you read the letter to america and you think bin laden was right, you’re a moron, and you’re contributing to the problem.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. However, I can tell you from my experience as an antitheist that TikTok is heavily PRO-religion. It is ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that much of the problems in the world stem from religiosity, and this long-standing war between Israel and Palestine is the best example of this.
However, TikTok works tirelessly to suppress ANY criticism of theism of any kind. Thus, those jihadists you mention are allowed to promote their extremist ideology, yet if someone like me analyzes and critiques their baseless claims while using logic, reason, fact-based evidence, and the scientific method, I get cited for bullying and hate speech. This is one of the biggest problems facing humanity today…
I think you should pay less attention to mainstream media which propped that issue up disproportionately. It wasn’t as big of a deal as many made it out to be.
But regardless of that, I don’t think one should be concerned about opinions of people and I certainly don’t think it is an issue at all if young people hate the US. It has done some of the most fucked up things in the world since the start of the last century to say the least. This may be expressed in stupid ways like sympathising for Bin Laden, but the broader sentiment of hate towards the US isn’t wrong.
The entire point of an app like TikTok is to stir stories and headlines so they get more clicks. Everything is for the algorithm.
If you use TikTok on a fresh account to test, you’ll see you’re not quite right. It’s scary just how fast and precise the algorithm actually optimizes for your taste and your political views.
And the boosted content is quite clearly associated with how many people liked it.
There’s no deep conspiracy here.
tiktok discourse is designed to create the narrative that no one could possibly be pro-palestine, and that humanity can be split into “people who see the truth and support Israel absolutely” and “people who have been fooled by propaganda”. do I think there’s pro-palestinian propaganda? absolutely. there’s also literal commercials for israel in between the youtube videos that I watch.
an asshole loves nothing more than another asshole, so that while he’s being an asshole he can point his finger and go “look at what an asshole that guy is!”
