serious question. is it pretentious to use the “real” name of a place instead of it’s english name? i’m not talking about pronunciation, but when english people decide to come up with a completely different, name for foreign places
like, “i visited milano, torino, and firenze this summer” instead of “milan, turin, and florence”
Well, I don’t think most primarily-English-speaking people would appreciate you mentioning that you visited Baile Átha Cliathe this past summer instead of just saying Dublin.
Well, most of the Spanish speaking world calls Barcelona the same way we call it. With slightly different inflection, but only the castellanos have the “Spanish lisp.” Which derived from some king who had a lisp, if I’m remembering that correctly? So other Spanish speaking people—most of them, in fact, don’t call it “barth-elona.”
I learned Spanish in Spain, so I started speaking in that lispy Spanish. But as I continued to get way more fluent, living in the other parts of the Spanish speaking world, my accent changed.
The Spanish king with a lisp is a folk etymology.
If it were true, then ‘s’ would also be pronounced that way.
I learned Spanish in Honduras. Never heard anyone ever use the Spanish lisp.
Does this mean I have to start calling Los Angeles “The City of Angels”?
Yeah kinda because English speakers know it as Milan, Turin and Florence
But that’s how c is pronounced in castillian, no? What’s pretentious about it?
probably that he’s not from there. absent other information, his lisp would then indicate that he is imitating the accent in order to sound more cultured. like someone from the us midwest saying “have you been to mehico?”
Barcelona kinda has an extra layer of this too, because Catalan does pronounce “Barcelona” with an S sound rather than an unvoiced TH
Someone should make a silly comic about it
And then there’s the layer on the other side, because the majority of Spanish speakers worldwide pronounce it with an “S” sound.
So, the majority of Spanish speakers in the Americas (which by far outnumber the number of Spanish speakers in Spain) use an “S” sound. The dominant form of Spanish in Spain uses the “th”, but the local dialect goes back to an “S” sound.
So, what rule are you going to go by? How the locals say it? The most locally of locals will use an “S” sound. How the majority of Spanish speakers say it? That’s again an “S” sound. How the majority of the people in the country who legal sovereignty over that region say it? Then I guess you’d go with the “TH” sound.
The most logical rule, to me, is to pronounce it however the person you’re speaking to will most easily understand it. In English to another English speaker, that almost certainly isn’t going to be the “th” pronunciation.
Different vowels, though. Like I said below, I wonder what the “pretentious” read would be with an accurate Catalan pronuntiation. Gonna guess it’d pass better, because all anglophones tend to know about that whole situation is “Castillian Spanish lisp hur hur”.
Maybe that’s why this strip and the whole “he said it with a lisp to sound cultured” joke rub me the wrong way. It always seems like latching on to the pretentiousness to get away with an ignorant or xenophobic joke.
The Wikipedia entry has a pronunciation guide:
English: [bɑːrsəˈloʊnə]
Catalan: [bəɾsəˈlonə]
The first a is a schwa and the o isn’t rounded. Honestly, it looks quite similar to English, to the point where there might be some English dialect that sounds exactly like that.
Having heard native speakers say it many times, this post is mostly showing the limitations of IPA because… yeah, no, not really.
That’s fine, I intend to aggressively say “Los An-heles” and “Ari-tho-nah” from now on, see how the anglophones deal with using a normal accent to say their names.
I mean, I get it, it sounds weird when people say “Los Anyeles” or “London” when speaking Spanish, too. But… you know, if the spelling is the same I don’t see the problem using the way it’s actually meant to be said.
I’ve gotten enough weird looks for ordering a “BuRRi-toh” in anglo speaking countries to be annoyed by this. And don’t get me started with how Americans have chosen to pronounce “Los Gatos”. If you’re going to steal our word you at least could give us the deference of not mocking us for saying it correctly.
Now, if the anglophone in question is out there calling it “Barna” you know they’re a poser.
Los Anyeles
That makes me feel upset.
London
This drove the point home for me. If a Spanish-speaker says “London”, it just sounds completely wrong. For those wondering, it’s pronounced “Londres” in Spanish.
When my dad is trying to joke about it he’ll call it “Londón”, and I’m weirdly fine with that.
i feel like the wider point got missed there.
saying “barcelona” with a faked spanish accent is the same as saying “berlin” with a faked german one. it’s weird, and it makes you took pretentious. bar th elona and ibi th a are just common versions because a lot of people know about them.
now, some people can’t help it. they might be german, for example. that’s different, and the comic is saying we shouldn’t judge for that, and we shouldn’t assume someone is trying to sound clever just because they pronounce a word differently.
Bey-a lean
Yeah, no, I get the joke.
I’m just annoyed by the joke.
Slightly, anyway. It’s less annoying than hearing Colbert do it (he really likes this one, and generally slightly xenophobic country stereotype jokes, for some reason), but it always rubs me the wrong way a little bit, for the reasons I mentioned elsewhere.
I mean, I’m not mad or anything, I still get to have a sense of humor. For as much as “guy speaks funny” is one of those, anyway.
yeh. “accent humor” is almost always just thinly veiled just racism or ableism. here at least it’s got a bit of a spin on it. not a lot, but some.
Fair but unkind. People talk weird most of the time. 😺
yes, that is indeed the joke of the comic.
It’s the opposite (as far as I could find). Pronouncing “c” similar to “th” is only done in Spanish in Spain. In Catalan (as well as Latin/South American Spanish) all pronounce it like “s”.Nevermind, I just can’t read. You wrote Castilian, not Catalan.
There is no mention of catalan in my post because it wasn’t about catalan. 🙃
Well that’s awkward. My brain seems to have “autocorrected” Castilian to Catalan. I literally didn’t notice until I reread it just now. My bad.
What’s pretentious about it is that you’re talking in English, so you should use the English place name. The purpose of communication is to be understood by the other person. If you use a non-standard pronunciation, even if it’s the name as the locals there pronounce it.
So, to communicate effectively to another English speaker in English you shouldn’t be saying “Munchen” you should be saying Munich. You should be saying Prague, not Praha. Vienna, not Wien.
Choosing to say the name of a place “like the natives do” might be seen as pretentious because instead of trying to communicate effectively, you’re attempting to seem smart or cultured.
For me is a matter of respect, I try to pronounce place names just as I try to pronounce names. If I say them wrong I feel like I’m disrespecting the locals.
If that makes me pretentious I’ll be a petty bitch and mispronounce the names of the ones calling me so. Bastards.
So, you have more respect for the people who live in a city, who are not part of the conversation, than you do for your conversational partner? That’s weird, dude.
Thank you for detailed responce. For some people it might be just a habit, I’m sure most people aren’t against using equivalent names if they exist. Just never occured to me that it would be pretentious, for example until you mentioned that Praha is Prague in English it didn’t click with me.
The english Th sounds different from the spanish C. Source: spaniard.
It’s similar though.
I know its sounds like im an asshole but i lived 4 months there and picked itnup lol. So now i alsways say it like that even tho my spanish is pretty bad. But i like to pick up the correct, native pronounciacion of place names anyways to show a bit of respect to the people living there and i dont judge you if you dont do it.
I’m bilingual and that’s dumb.
People living in a place don’t care how you say the name of the place where they live when you’re talking to someone else in your own language. They don’t feel a sudden burst of respect from someone elsewhere in the world.
More importantly, the native names of most places use phonemes that simply don’t exist in English. Turkey wants you to say “Türkiye” but not only does English not have the “ü” character, that phoneme simply doesn’t exist in English. If you’re trying to communicate with someone in English, you shouldn’t use phonemes that don’t exist in English.
Fundamentally, the purpose of saying a place’s name is to communicate with someone, it’s not to show respect to the people who live in the place being named. If someone is going to find it even slightly difficult to understand you because you’re choosing to pronounce the name of a place in a way that’s unnatural to English speakers, then you’re doing a bad job of communicating.
But they are speaking the local language, so they’re learning to say it the correct way. Why would they insist on saying it wrong when they are learning to say everything else correctly?
Who’s speaking which local language?
What’s the name of someone speaking a foreign language?
What is the colour of wind?
Im bilingual and speak 4 languages and i like it when people pronounce names correctly. Especially in hungarian which a lot of people pronounce incorrectly, it feels nice. Then again i could be alone but other peoples comment suggest otherwise. I just dont know why you reacted so offensively to my comment. Btw a language not having the correct sounds doesnt mean you dont hear/know them. Im really bad with the scratchy sounds in french, danish, arabic, etc but i still hear them so i recognise what is being said.
i like it when people pronounce names correctly
How do you define “correctly”? Is “Munich” a correct way to pronounce that city in Germany, or is only Munchen acceptable? Or should it be “Minga” because that’s how it’s said in Bavarian?
You could say the same thing in english in english because of the many dialects. I usually say place names in the local dialect except if its a language i speak and then you see how language is flexible becuase people who speak the same language as me say stuff differently.
I usually say place names in the local dialect
That seems like the best way to communicate.
except if its a language i speak
So, if you speak a language, you don’t care what the people you’re speaking to understand?
Oh, this is German, I speak German, I’ll tell Dave it happened in Agram
“So, I the guy went to Agram”
“Wait, what’s Agram”
“Agram, that’s the German name for Zagreb, Croatia. I speak German!”
No i mean i say swedish place names with my dialect not the one where the place is. If you speak a language well enough its hard to adjust you dialect. Same with english. I have a very strange mix of american and irish english so if i say the name of a south african place it wont come out the same way a south african would. But you should know this because you also speak english and this happens when a lot of people speak the same language. Hungarians in hungary say almost everything the same but when you go to romania or slovakia for example, the pronounciation changes but my accent stays the same. Of course there is code switching but thats usually only 2 dialects.
Damn, the other commenter seems hellbent on making you sound like a snob, despite every one of your comments being chill and relatable.
Trilingual here, if it’s clear that someone is trying to say it correctly (as would be said by anyone of the native language) even if they mispronounce it they get a pass.
If you come to my city and call it Saint Sebastien you are going to get very weird looks. If you call it San Sebastian or even better, Donostia, even mispronounced most local will smile because you are fucking trying.
Yes there are some phonemes that don’t exist in other languages but it’s clear when outsiders say them wrong while trying vs wrong and they don’t bother to make a similar sound. It’s about respect.
I would say Munchen since its how my German friends told me that should be said.
if it’s clear that someone is trying to say it correctly (as would be said by anyone of the native language) even if they mispronounce it they get a pass
It’s not about “getting a pass”, it’s about what’s the best way to say it for a given audience. In most cases, that’s how the language you’re currently speaking says the thing. If you’re a Brit, in London, talking to another Brit about Zaragoza, you shouldn’t pronounce it the way Castilian Spanish speakers would say it because the person you’re talking to is not likely to recognize the name when spoken like that.
Look ma, a cunt
There is a lot of people that speak english as a second or third language often they just don’t know correct english toponims or idioms, sometimes it’s just happens. English for a lot of people isn’t objective by itself just a means to an end.
Sure, but as a general rule, if you’re trying to decide how to say the name of a place, you should say it as it is said in your language/dialect if you’re speaking your language/dialect, and especially if you’re speaking your language/dialect with another person who speaks the same language/dialect.
Good luck dealing with all the idiots disagreeing with you. I’m not sure whether they think they look smart by using the “correct” pronunciation; but one learns quickly to anglicise words when talking to anglos.
If I ever go to Istanbul, I’ll be telling people I visited Constantinople.
Byzantium, please!
Fuck that Carigrad or Tsargrad
Lygos or gtfo
Byzantium iirc is a different place that is close by.
Byzantium … was an ancient Greek city in classical antiquity that became known as Constantinople in late antiquity and Istanbul today
I think it’s just grown over the years
It’s a bit iffy. Byzantium originally was located a bit further west. After Constantinople was “refounded”, it was located a bit further east. Some historians consider Constantinople to be a new city that usurped Byzantium over the years, others don’t and consider it the same city altogether.
This is complicated by some sources referring to the place as one and the same, whereas others seem to be indicating distinct (albeit close) locations.
Ultimately it doesn’t really matter though. It didn’t take long for Constantinople to grow beyond where Byzantium used to be, so the time period where they could’ve been distinct is really quite small.
Interesting, thanks!
Well, even old New York was once New Amsterdam, so…
Why’d they change it?
Honestly, idk. I guess people just liked it better that way
Supposedly, the English took it from the Dutch. The English king gave it to his brother who was the Duke of York and renamed it in his honor.
Do you get to the cloud district very often? Oh what am I saying, of course you don’t.
Ith hith name Igor?
Yeth marthter.
That’th great newth!
That would be the (standard) Spanish, right? Catalan, the local language, has it with /s/
But it’s very language-dependent. English has established names for many places, so you should probably use those. But some languages just don’t, and if you borrow everything, you might as well borrow properly.
I think it’s interesting that some countries have entirely different names depending on the language. Here is one for example:
- English - Germany
- Spanish - Alemania
- Finnish - Saksa
- Polish - Niemcy
- German - Deutschland
There are many others, but they are more so variations of the same name, so I didn’t include them. The ones I listed are completely different.
I heard that the different names originated from the names of the Germanic tribes that interacted most with the respective peoples and resulting language. For example, what would be English-speakers would interact mostly with Germanic tribes, whereas would be Spanish-speakers would interactact mostly with Alemanni tribes. However, Perplexity says that the English name comes from the Roman name for the area, while the Spanish name comes from the name of the tribe. If only Crunk the Historian could investigate this and find an ultimate answer.
Hahaaaaaa… sexy European lisp.
Una thervetha por favor!
¡Pues hombre, vallase para la porra! ¡Imbecil!
Una torta de patatas
I can’t type out the pronunciation but have you guys heard American people read Japanese names? My god, it is so weird. Say that to Japanese people and I bet half of the time they don’t recognise what it is. The way a foreign language is being butchered is beyond imagination.
I had a (white American) friend who insisted on pronouncing every Japanese word he got to in a sentence with the proper heavy Japanese accent/pronunciation, and he sounded like a fucking idiot. It’s a strange phenomenon.
I have not, but now I am interested. Any idea where I could hear the difference between the correct Japanese way and the butchered American way?
Fortha Bartha
Hah. It does raise the question of what the reaction would be if the guy was going for a Catalan pronuntiation instead.
Many Spanish folks I have met roll their eyes when my Latin American Spanish skills rill my r’s.
Why?? What’s the difference, and why would they care?
