What’s crazy is I still can’t make it onto their website without waiting in a 20 minute queue. Stupid.
This is one stupid product. It really goes against everything the framework brand has identified with.
It’s a straight up gimmick flanderizing the brand identity.
I really hope this won’t be too expensive. If it’s reasonably affordable i might just get one for my living room.
they already announced pricing for them.
1099 for the base ai max model with 32gb(?), 1999 for fully maxed with the top sku.
$1k for the base isn’t horrible IMO, especially if you compare it to something like the mac mini starting at $600 and ballooning over $1k to increase to 32GB of “unified memory” and 1tb of storage.
I get why people are mad about the non-upgradable memory but tbh I think this is the direction the industry is going to go as a whole. They can’t get the memory to be stable and performant while also being removable. It’s a downside of this specific processor and if people want that they should just build a PC
i actually think its not the worst priced framework product ironically. Prebuilt 1k pcs tend to be something like a high end cpu + 4060 desktop anyways, so specs wise, its relatively speaking, reasonable. take for example cyberpower pcs build here, which is of the few oems iirc Gamers Nexus thinks doesn’t charge as much of a SI tax on assembly. it’s acutally not incredibly far off performance wise. I’d argue its the most value Framework product per dollar ironically.
Prebuilt 1k pcs tend to be something like a high end cpu + 4060 desktop anyways
That value proposition evaporates when you factor in repairability and upgradability of those prebuilts.
and if you actually want a PC for gaming on, a discrete gpu (eg: 7900xt) is going to be at least 3x faster at throwing polygons around than the 8060S. This thing is definitely better for AI workloads than gaming.
Bummer
So… now Framework Corp is selling non-upgradable hardware?
I dunno. Conceptually I want to like Framework. But their pricing means it is basically never worth buying and upgrading versus just buying a new laptop (seriously, run the numbers. You basically save 10 bucks over two generations of shopping at Best Buy). But they also have a system that heavily encourages people to horde spare parts rather than just take it to an e-waste disposal facility/bin.
No, the pc is upgradable. They explicitly said in the event that the desktop was suppose to be an actual desktop with replaceable parts as much as technically possible. Only ram is tied to the mobo/cpu because of technical limitations of the amd cpu
At least memory is soldered on because of high throughout they say.
You get fast memory as a result. If you don’t care about the fast memory, there’s no good reason to buy this, with their motherboard. There’s a use case this serves which can’t be served by traditional slotted memory and the alternative is to buy 4-5 NVIDIA 3090/4090/5090. If you want that use case, then this is a pretty good deal.
And your phone isn’t repairable because it needs to be water proof. Your earbuds because of power efficiency. Etc.
Also, I suggest watching this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3zB9EFntmA.
But, to be clear: I am actually not as opposed to the idea of soldered ram when you have “an excuse”. Same with phones. But framework is a brand that tries to build itself on minimizing e-waste and maximizing repairability and… hey, at least we can still swap out the side panel on their prebuilt!
As far as I read LPCAMM in its current state does not work for this. The electrical noise is too high. These things aren’t the same. A repairable waterproof phone can be made without glue by making it a bit thicker. In the case of RAM today, we’re hitting fundamental physics limitations with speed of electricity and noise. At this point the physical interconnect itself becomes a problem. Gold contact points become antennas that induce noise into adjacent parts of the system. I’m not trying to excuse Framework here. I’m saying that the difficulty here borders on the impossible. If this RAM was soldered and it had bandwidth no different than SODIMM or LPCAMM modules then I’d say Framework fucked up making it soldered, majorly. As I said, there’s no point buying this if you don’t care about the fast RAM and use cases that need it like LLMs. Regular ITX board with regular AM5 is the way to go.
I feel like this is a big miss by framework. Maybe I just don’t understand because I already own a Velka 3 that i used happily for years and building small form factor with standard parts seems better than what this is offering. Better as in better performance, aesthetics, space optimization, upgradeability - SFF is not a cheap or easy way to build a computer.
The biggest constraint building in the sub-5 liter format is GPU compatibility because not many manufacturers even make boards in the <180mm length category. Also can’t go much higher than 150-200 watts because cooling is so difficult. There are still options though, i rocked a PNY 1660 super for a long time, and the current most powerful option is a 4060ti. Although upgrades are limited to what manufacturers occasionally produce, it is upgradeable, and it is truly desktop performance.
On the CPU side, you can physically put in whatever CPU you want. The only limitation is that the cooler, alpenfohn black ridge or noctua l9a/l9i, probably won’t have a good time cooling 100+ watts without aggressive undervolting and power limits. 65 watts TDP still gives you a ryzen 7 9700x.
Motherboards have the SFF tax but are high quality in general. Flex ATX PSUs were a bit harder to find 5 or 6 years ago but now the black 600W enhance ENP is readily available from Velkase’s website. Drives and memory are completely standard. m.2 fits with the motherboard, 2.5in SATA also fits in one of the corners. Normal low profile DDR5 is replaceable / upgradeable.
What framework is releasing is more like a laptop board in a ~4 liter case and I really don’t like that in order to upgrade any part of CPU, GPU or memory you have to replace the entire board because it’s soldered on APU and not socketed or discrete components. Framework’s enclosure hasn’t been designed to hold a motherboard+discrete GPU and the board doesn’t have a PCIe slot if you wanted to attach a card via riser in another case. It could be worse but I don’t see this as a good use of development resources.
I think the biggest limiting factor for your mini PC will always be the VRAM and any workload that enjoys that fast RAM speed. Really, I think this mini PC from framework is only sensible for certain workloads. It was poised as a mobile chip and certainly is majorly power efficient. On the other hand I don’t think it is for large scaling but more for testing at home or working at home on the cheap. It isn’t something I expected from framework though as I expected them to maintain modularity and the only modularity here is the little USB cards and the 3D printed front panel designs lol
Edit
Personally I am in that niche market of high RAM speed. Also, access to high VRAM for occasional LLM testing. Though it is an AMD and I don’t know if am comfortable switching from Nvidia for that workload just yet. Renting a GPU is just barely cheap enough.
At first I was skeptical during the announcement and then I saw the amount of ram and the rack. Imho it is not for enduser but for business. In fact we have workloads that would be perfectly fit that computer so why not?
its definitely a small business and homelab focused device. ill 100% be getting one for some local AI compute in my lab.
“To enable the massive 256GB/s memory bandwidth that Ryzen AI Max delivers, the LPDDR5x is soldered,” writes Framework CEO Nirav Patel in a post about today’s announcements. “We spent months working with AMD to explore ways around this but ultimately determined that it wasn’t technically feasible to land modular memory at high throughput with the 256-bit memory bus. Because the memory is non-upgradeable, we’re being deliberate in making memory pricing more reasonable than you might find with other brands.”
😒🍎
Yeah hugely disappointed by this tbh. They should have made a gaming capable steam machine in cooperation with valve instead :)
They still could; this seems aimed at the AI/ML research space TBH
This is an AI chip designed primarily for running AI workflows. The fact that it can game is secondary
Yeah exactly, its worthless… Even the big players already admit to the AI hype being over. This is the worst possible thing to launch for them, its like they have no idea who their customers are.
The AI hype being over doesn’t mean no one is working on AI anymore. LLMs and other trained models are here to stay whether you like it or not.
I mean, it’s not. You can do aí workflows with this wonderful chip.
If you wanna game, go buy nvidia
To be fair it starts with 32GB of RAM, which should be enough for most people. I know it’s a bit ironic that Framework have a non-upgradeable part, but I can’t see myself buying a 128GB machine and hoping to raise it any time in the future.
If you really need an upgradeable machine you wouldn’t be buying a mini-PC anyways, seems like they’re trying to capture a different market entirely.
seems like they’re trying to capture a different market entirely.
Yes that’s the problem.
That they want to sell cheap ai research machines to use for workstation?
That’s a poor attempt to knowingly misrepresent my statement.
No, it is a question
The answer is that they’re abandoning their principles to pursue some other market segment.
Although I guess it could be said to be like Porsche and Lamborghini selling SUVs to support the development of their sports cars…
I don’t understand how that answers my question
According to the CEO in the LTT video about this thing it was a design choice made by AMD because otherwise they cannot get the ram speed they advertise.
Which is fine, but there was no obligation for Framework to use that chip either.
In the same video it’s pointed out that this product wouldn’t exist at all without the AMD chip. It’s literally built around it.
Would 256GB/s be too slow for large llms?
It runs on the gpu
Many LLM operations rely on fast memory and gpus seem to have that. Even though their memory is soldered and vbios is practically a black box that is tightly controlled. Nothing on a GPU is modular or repairable without soldering skills(and tools).
Well, more specifically: why didn’t they try to go for LPCAMM?
From what I understand, they did try, but AMD couldn’t get it to work because of signal integrity issues.
Because you’d get like half the memory bandwidth to a product where performance is most likely bandwidth limited. Signal integrity is a bitch.
This is not really that interesting and kinda weird given the non-upgradability, but I guess it’s good for AI workloads. It’s just not that unique compared to their laptops.
I’d love a mid-tower case with swappable front panel I/O and modular bays for optical drives; would’ve been the perfect product for Framework to make IMO.
The mini’s are the latest new hotness for desktop computing. I’ve been running a dirt cheap $90US, mini for 2 years now. It fits extremely well on my desk, just tucked in under the monitor leaving plenty of room for all the other tasks I do daily.
Will it play the latest hot new video game? Nope. But it will run OnlyOffice, FreeCAD and FreeDoom just fine.
It’s just not that unique compared to their laptops.
This’ll be a good sell for the useful idiot crowd that has been conditioned to think gaming laptops are the devil.
Xbox with the ability to run windows is what the article is basically saying.
Love the downvotes for saying something that is in the article! Feels just like reddit!
Soldered on ram and GPU. Strange for Framework.
Not strange at all.
They’re a business that makes its money off of selling hype to morons.
Just buy a ThinkPad, if you’re thinking about buying a Framework…
Apparently AMD couldn’t make the signal integrity work out with socketed RAM. (source: LTT video with Framework CEO)
IMHO: Up until now, using soldered RAM was lazy and cheap bullshit. But I do think we are at the limit of what’s reasonable to do over socketed RAM. In high performance datacenter applications, socketed RAM is on it’s way out (see: MI300A, Grace-{Hopper,Blackwell},Xeon Max), with onboard memory gaining ground. I think we’ll see the same trend on consumer stuff as well. Requirements on memory bandwidth and latency are going up with recent trends like powerful integrated graphics and AI-slop, and socketed RAM simply won’t work.
It’s sad, but in a few generations I think only the lower end consumer CPUs will be possible to use with socketed RAM. I’m betting the high performance consumer CPUs will require not only soldered, but on-board RAM.
Finally, some Grace Hopper to make everyone happy: https://youtube.com/watch?v=gYqF6-h9Cvg
Sound like a downgrade to me I rather have capability of adding more ram than having a soldered limited one doesn’t matter if it’s high performance. Especially for consumer stuff.
Looking at my actual PCs built in the last 25 years or so, I tend to buy a lot of good spec ram up front and never touch it again. My desktop from 2011 has 16GB and the one from 2018 has 32GB. With both now running Linux, it still feels like plenty.
When I go to build my next system, if I could get a motherboard with 64 or 128GB soldered to it, AND it was like double the speed, I might go for that choice.
We just need to keep competition alive in that space to avoid the dumb price gouging you get with phones and Macs and stuff.
Sounds like a load of bullshit to feed useful idiots.
There’s even the next iteration already happening: Cerebras is maling wafer-scale chipa with integrated SRAM. If you want to have the highest memory-bandwith to your cpu core it has to lay exactly next to it ON the chip.
Ultimately RAM and processor will probably be indistinguishable with the human eye.
Honestly I upgrade every few years and isually have to purchase a new mobo anyhow. I do think this could lead to less options for mobos though.
I don’t think you are wrong, but I don’t think you go far enough. In a few generations, the only option for top performance will be a SoC. You’ll get to pick which SoC you want and what box you want to put it in.
the only option for top performance will be a SoC
System in a Package (SiP) at least. Might not be efficient to etch the logic and that much memory onto the same silicon die, as the latest and greatest TSMC node will likely be much more expensive per square mm than the cutting edge memory production node from Samsung or whatever foundry where the memory is being made.
But with advanced packaging going the way it’s been over the last decade or so, it’s going to be hard to compete with the latency/throughout of an in-package interposer. You can only do so much with the vias/pathways on a printed circuit board.
You are correct, I’m referring to on package. Need more coffee.
No, I don’t think you owe an apology. It’s a super common terminology almost to the point where I wouldn’t really even consider it outright wrong to describe it as a SoC. It’s just that the blurred distinction between a single chip and multiple chiplets packaged together are almost impossible for an outsider to tell without really getting into the published spec sheets for a product (and sometimes may not even be known then).
It’s just more technically precise to describe them as SiP, even if SoC functionally means something quite similar (and the language may evolve to the point where the terms are interchangeable in practice).
I get it but imagine the GPU style markup when all mobos have a set amount of RAM. You’ll have two identical boards except for $30 worth of memory with a price spread of $200+. Not fun.
I definitely wouldn’t mind soldered RAM if there’s still an expansion socket. Solder in at least a reasonable minimum (16G?) and not the cheap stuff but memory that can actually use the signal integrity advantage, I may want more RAM but it’s fine if it’s a bit slower. You can leave out the DIMM slot but then have at least one PCIe x16 expansion slot. A free one, one in addition to the GPU slot. PCIe latency isn’t stellar but on the upside, expansion boards would come with their own memory controllers, and push come to shove you can configure the faster RAM as cache / the expansion RAM as swap.
Heck, throw the memory into the CPU package. It’s not like there’s ever a situation where you don’t need RAM.
All your RAM needs to be the same speed unless you want to open up a rabbit hole. All attempts at that thus far have kinda flopped. You can make very good use of such systems, but I’ve only seen it succeed with software specifically tailored for that use case (say databases or simulations).
The way I see it, RAM in the future will be on package and non-expandable. CXL might get some traction, but naah.
The cache hierarchy has flopped? People aren’t using swap?
NUMA also hasn’t flopped, it’s just that most systems aren’t multi socket, or clusters. Different memory speeds connected to the same CPU is not ideal and you don’t build a system like that but among upgraded systems that’s not rare at all and software-wise worst thing that’ll happen is you get the lower memory speed. Which you’d get anyway if you only had socketed RAM.
In systems where memory speed are mismatched, the system runs at the slowest module’s speed. So literally making the soldered, faster memory slower. Why even have soldered memory at that point?
I’d assume the soldered memory to have a dedicated memory controller. There’s also no hard requirement that a single controller can’t drive different channels at different speeds. The only hard requirement is that one channel needs to run at one speed.
…and the whole thing becomes completely irrelevant when we’re talking about PCIe expansion cards the memory controller doesn’t care.
Yeah, the cache hierarchy is behaving kinda wonky lately. Many AI workloads (and that’s what’s driving development lately) are constrained by bandwidth, and cache will only help you with a part of that. Cache will help with repeated access, not as much with streaming access to datasets much larger than the cache (i.e. many current AI models).
Intel already tried selling CPUs with both on-package HBM and slotted DDR-RAM. No one wanted it, as the performance gains of the expensive HBM evaporated completely as soon as you touched memory out-of-package. (Assuming workloads bound by memory bandwidth, which currently dominate the compute market)
To get good performance out of that, you may need to explicitly code the memory transfers to enable prefetch (preferably asynchronous) from the slower memory into the faster, á la classic GPU programming. YMMW.
I wasn’t really thinking of HPC but my next gaming rig, TBH. The OS can move often accessed pages into faster RAM just as it can move busy threads to faster cores, gaining you some fps a second or two after alt-tabbing back to the game after messing around with firefox. If it wasn’t for memory controllers generally driving channels all at the same speed that could already be a thing right now. It definitely already was a thing back in the days of swapping out to spinning platters.
Not sure about HBM in CPUs in general but with packaging advancement any in-package stuff is only going to become cheaper, HBM, pedestrian bandwidth, doesn’t matter.
Couldn’t you just treat the socketed ram like another layer of memory effectively meaning that L1-3 are on the CPU “L4” would be soldered RAM and then L5 would be extra socketed RAM? Alternatively couldn’t you just treat it like really fast swap?
Using it as cache would reduce total capacity as cache implies coherence, and treating it as ordinary swap would mean copying to main memory before you access it which is silly when you can access it directly. That is you’d want to write a couple of lines of kernel code to use it effectively but it’s nowhere close to rocket science. Nowhere near as complicated as making proper use of NUMA architectures.
Wrote a longer reply to someone else, but briefly, yes, you are correct. Kinda.
Caches won’t help with bandwidth-bound compute (read: ”AI”) it the streamed dataset is significantly larger than the cache. A cache will only speed up repeated access to a limited set of data.
Now, can we have a cool European company doing similar stuff? At the rate it’s going I can’t decide whether I shouldn’t buy American because I don’t want to support a fascist country or because I’m afraid the country might crumble so badly that I can’t count on getting service for my device.
Wait I thought they were a Taiwanese company?
This comment made me double check. They’re from San Francisco: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framework_Computer
I’d prefer to buy taiwanese tbh. 😉
I could envision MNT Research trying this in the future, but not for now.
Looks like a pile of shit for easily-impressionable morons, but that’s to be expected from framework.
It’s kinda cool but seems a bit expensive at this moment.
I don’t get the point. Framework laptops are interesting because they are modular but for desktop PCs that’s the default. And Framework’s PCs are less modular than a standard PC because the RAM is soldered
That makes no sense - that’s more like Apple then…
I don’t know if it’s the case, but modular IO on PC maybe nice.
Not really sure who this is for. With soldered RAM is less upgradeable than a regular PC.
AI nerds maybe? Sure got a lot of RAM in there potentially attached to a GPU.
But how capable is that really when compared to a 5090 or similar?
Not really sure who this is for.
Second sentence in the linked article.
