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Went to a metal concert last year for a huge, well known band. The number of punisher/warrior, thin blue line, militia-styled ragged flag, Gadsden shirts and hats was off the charts.
In my younger days metal was anti-authoritarianism, anti-cop, anti-conformity… now these clowns are the ones who want to be holding the riot batons, the body armor, and support the very fascists we hated.
I got plenty of grey hair, the crowd around me didn’t so I’m thinking there’s a generational shift to metal going fascist.
Yeah, the meme rings pretty true.
Your comment reminds me of Metallica many years ago. Their first albums were really good I thought. Then they cut their hair, their music started to sound more mainstream and I heard from friends that the band kind apologized for the anti war lyrics on their earlier albums. I guess money talks in strange ways.
That’s the band.
Funny enough they still play those same anti-war songs off the early albums. Play what pays so they can ride around in their private jets.
Edit:
I did some digging. AJFA - One to most anyone objectively is about the horrors of war. The music video opens with the sounds and images of war. Lyrics say the war is done with the speaker in the story. It’s zero distance to understand that the person in the video suffered their wounds as a result of that war. The lyrics literally say a Landmine caused the wounds.
However, Hetfield walked back that imagery and the lyrics to mean:
In a Howard Stern Interview, James states that the song isn’t inherently anti-war, but the lyrics were rather about the feeling of being trapped in your own body and feeling like you’re unable to interact with the world around you and express yourself and speak your mind and feelings.
So it’s not an apology, he’s retconning the song to this instead of what pretty much everyone legitimately understood it to be about.
Also, regarding Don’t Tread On Me, what people associated with the Gadsden Flag:
Hetfield said the song was a reaction to the anti-American tone of their album …And Justice for All - “This is the other side of that. America is a fucking good place. I definitely think that. And that feeling came about from touring a lot. You find out what you like about certain places and you find out why you live in America, even with all the bad fucked-up shit. It’s still the most happening place to hang out.”
Hetfield also said “Don’t Tread On Me, I love the song, but it shocked a lot of people, because everyone thought it was pro-war when they thought we were anti-war, and alls we’re doing is writing songs, we’re not standing politically on any side. “Don’t Tread On Me” was just one of those ‘don’t fuck with us’ songs, and obviously referencing the flag and the snake and what it meant, that all tied into the black album and the snake icon on the album cover, and I think it’s great to play that song live. We’re over here in Europe playing it, and people aren’t appalled by the songs. We haven’t played it in Iraq or Iran yet, though.”
It sounds a lot to me like Hetfield is softballing pandering to right wing fans he doesn’t want to offend and/or personal beliefs that lean Right. He completely disregards the obvious anti-war sentiment in AJFA with “Oh, you all thought we were anti-war? We’re not pro-war, we’re pro-America.” If that isn’t some Chauvanistic Nationalism I don’t know what is.
Anyway, I don’t know one way or the other, but considering the crowd’s fashion choices at the event and his unwillingness to just say “war is bullshit”, which you can do apolitically, I figure Metallica, or at least Hetfield, support right wing ideologies.
E2: another interview where Hetfield says why he left the Bay Area:
*There was an elitist attitude there that if you weren’t their way politically, their way environmentally, all of that, that you were looked down upon. *
So by inference and the preponderance of evidence, he’s probably right wing.
One is not about the horrors of war, Mr. Hetfield? The song you wrote with lyrics that include
Landmine has taken my speech, taken my sight, taken my hearing taken my arms, taken my legs taken my soul Left me with life in hell
I guess it was one of those civilian peacetime landmines?
“The Landmine of Life” - Hetfield
/s
Thanks for the edit, and thanks @glitchdx@lemmy.world for commenting.
I find that whenever I go to metal shows, most people are very kind, polite and free of bigotry. Maybe what you’re describing is a US thing, or maybe it’s just that Metallica is a super mainstream band which attracts more dickheads than your average metal show.
I know metalheads have a history of gatekeeping, and keeping these fascists away from the scene should be priority #1.I can only offer what I experienced at the show I attended. Metallica was touring with Five Finger Death Punch, a very much right-wing “military rock” band that just sucks IMO. They straight up dog whistled the right wingers in the crowd using a lot of “there’s something wrong in this country” type of commentary. Metallica bringing them on tour doesn’t really change my growing opinion that Metallica supports right wing ideology. My understanding of the greater Metal crowd is that they are indeed good people, I went to an Industrial Metal concert a few weeks back and it was free of the iconography I saw at the Metallica show, and everyone was great. We had a good time. It was also the loudest show I think I’ve ever been to. Thank goodness for earplugs, lol.
I mean, Kirk Hammet literally wore swastika shirts back in the day. I used to be a huge Metallica fan boy when I was younger but eesh.
No shit…I never knew that.
Yeah I think it was either before Metallica, or early days. I’ve tried to find a picture, but they’ve done a good job of scrubbing it from the Internet. I know my source is “trust me bro” at this point lol, but I swear I’ve seen it multiple times years ago
You’re right, it’s not to be found. Eh, after a little poking around they did a nazi salute, too. You can still see that image. Be willing to bet the swastika and salute were both “fuck you” for lols and not any personal affiliation.
E:typo
Which creates a space where people with personal affiliations get away with it and gather. And then when called out on their shit, tell the “for the lulz” crowd that people are coming for their freedom.
I’ve never understood the popularity of FFDP. “War is the Answer” is their best album by a heavy margin and it’s just… Fine? Like it’s listenable, I can listen to it without being bored. At the end of the day it makes me wish I was listening to Avenged Sevenfold, Shinedown, or Killswitch Engage.
But the rest of their music is unbelievably boring. Their covers of other people’s music is their best work, probably because they can’t write interesting music.
It’s performative. That’s why.
Sounds about right for James Hetfield. When off stage the dude is one of those Mossy Oak weirdos.
The clothing/camo? I’ve only ever seen him in California motorcycle kit - all black, Maltese crosses, flat-brimmed ball cap, etc.
Heh. Yeah I thought Metallica were anti “the man” when I was a teen but the Napster case showed me that they were the man
They’re just rich old white dudes and everything that goes with it.
To a lot of young people, myself included. The authority, or at least the authority we interact with- is progressive. So something like a thin blue line flag is rejecting that authority. Also the Gadsden flag has always been anti-authority.
Yeah. To a lot of young, vulnerable people who are less minoritized, progressives feel like the authority. You’re told you’re privileged, but you don’t feel it. This is partially because we take our personal experiences for granted, but also because even the relatively privileged struggle. Some people suffer more from the system than others, but a ton of things suck for everyone.
Unfortunately, the promises of the right are a monkey’s paw at best, or a scam at worst. Even if the right succeeds, they usually make things worse for everyone in the process, even themselves.
Especially because average privilege accross a demographic says nothing of a given individuals privilege.
But I think that’s not the only reason people feel this way, but also because for the people we interact with they are the authority. Most of my teachers were progressive, anti-capitalist, and ERFs(I don’t know about trans exclusionary since they never talked about it)- but said ridiculous things like “men can’t get raped”. This might’ve been just my school, but especially amongst girls, anyone suspected of being “conservative” was bullied. I wasn’t conservative but was pretty argumentative, and I have someone email my school email thanking me for saying what they wanted to say but were too scared to.
Remember for a lot of people my age, early 20s and late teens, when we were growing up people who made funny memes(like from our perspectives Alex Jones or whoever) were being banned while the inverse wasn’t happening.
I went through a phase where I felt the exact same way. My upbringing was left wing and becoming more conservative felt like rebellion. I was never really that right wing, but I was convinced that conservatives must have some valid points. After all, how could half the country be wrong on almost everything?
Unfortunately for conservatives, I never stopped questioning, never stopped pushing ideas to their limits. In doing so, I independently came to many of the same left wing viewpoints I grew up with, only stronger and more resilient. I realized that my parents were actually right, while I was wrong.
More importantly, I realized that conservative ideas did make sense, but not at face value. Conservatives are inconsistent and contradictory because they aren’t expressing their motivations explicitly. They often aren’t aware of their actual reasoning, but there is logic behind their views. The logic is usually very cynical and cruel, dehumanizing people and valuing identity over principles.
I used to think somewhat like you, until I applied a critical lens to conservative ideas in the same way I had investigated familiar progressive ideas. Now I’m a trans woman who’s farther left than every elected representative in congress. I still believe in almost all of the leftist ideas I was raised with, only I’ve pushed them farther than my parents ever did.
Right now you’re critical of progressives, and often you spot valid flaws, but are you willing to continue? Are you willing to peer deeper into reality; to open your eyes to fundamental truths? That was my strategy, and it took me from naive progressive, to rebellious centrist, to the eventual woke queen I am today.
I continue to awaken to new truths, mostly because I like doing it. I like the feeling of discovery and understanding. Thanks to my efforts, I’ve found likely answers to humanity’s biggest questions, raised my base happiness levels from constantly suicidal to never hopeless, and became way smarter than I thought I’d ever be. I think most people can learn what I’ve learned if they apply themselves, but it’s still a tough journey. Are you willing to take it?
I appreciate you sharing, but I think you’re misunderstanding me and what I was saying. I am not conservative, nor am I progressive. My point was just that progressivism was the dominant ideology of authority in most of my upbringing. Being the authority ideology doesn’t inherently make it wrong, or its “designated opposition” right. I have a few fundamental values that are based(like I think deep down probably everyones) on my intuition and emotion. I then try to interpret how certain things align with those values. Its true that probably at least some of the basis for those values were initially rebelliousness- but that doesn’t exactly make them wrong. I also don’t know that I agree there is such a thing as a fundamental truth- but I’m curious what you are the likely answers to (and what are) humanity’s biggest questions?
No, you’re conservative. I don’t like labeling my beliefs either, but being pro cop and antiprogressive is conservative. In reality, self proclaimed American conservatives want to change society to be more hierarchical and unfair, not keep things as is. If you’re not applying pressure for reformation, selfish interests will cause backsliding. The battle will never end until humanity dies out. Good things require effort to maintain.
Another mistake you make is thinking progressives have more power than we do. The rich aren’t progressive. Companies pandering to diverse customers aren’t progressive, they’re just making money by expanding their customer base. The right screams about companies being woke, but the companies are often act more right wing than they would be if they were only chasing profits.
Social media companies don’t censor conservatives unfairly, instead they protect conservatives from the policies they implement to prevent brands from pulling advertising. The standards are higher for left wing causes in the mainstream media, as the rich people who own them are right wing. Accurate descriptions of reality in science and journalism tend to support progressives more than conservatives, with publications often introducing inaccuracies to prop up conservative positions.
My biggest problem when I thought like you was having an inaccurate view of left wingers as having power in society. Many agents that I thought were left wing actually weren’t, instead only supporting left wing causes for personal gain. Empirical observations are almost always in opposition to right wing plans for improving society. Exclusively right wing plans never make things better for the weak; never.
If you want fundamental truths and answers to our biggest questions, read my comment history. This comment is already long enough.
being pro cop and antiprogressive is conservative.
I am neither of those things. And it’s very condescending to assume you know what I am. Well it depends what “anti progressive” means, I support some progressive stances but oppose others.
If you’re not applying pressure for reformation
Again, you don’t know me.
The rich aren’t progressive. Companies pandering to diverse customers aren’t progressive
They may or may not be. I think it’s wrong to assume companies aren’t just made of people, and people may make some logical oversights of their beliefs to keep their standard of living and job.
Social media companies don’t censor conservatives unfairly, instead they protect conservatives from the policies they implement to prevent brands from pulling advertising.
Why would brands pull their advertising? No person sees an Amazon ad on something dumb and thinks that means Amazon endorses that belief. There are however certain organizations such as the ADL that pressure companies into pulling their ads.
Accurate descriptions of reality in science and journalism tend to support progressives more than conservatives, with publications often introducing inaccuracies to prop up conservative positions.
This is true. Progressivism has a basic moral value of utilitarianism. Conservatism basic moral values are religion and tradition. Of course one of those has more evidence for it.
Many agents that I thought were left wing actually weren’t, instead only supporting left wing causes for personal gain.
Well isn’t that a lot of those out of power too? After all, one of the biggest criticism of poor Trump voters was that they were voting against their interest. They weren’t voting for personal gain. Which would imply that at least some less conservative voters were convinced by that argument. Maybe no one votes in their interest, but at least conventional wisdom was the two wolves and a sheep saying.
Empirical observations are almost always in opposition to right wing plans for improving society.
You know, how you define improving society depends on your values. We probably agree on some parts of the definition and disagree on others.
Exclusively right wing plans never make things better for the weak; never.
That’s not to mention the definitions of right and left wing tend to depend on the person.
The thin blue line is literally pro-cop you twat.
Yeah?
Me hoping the new YouTuber I found hasn’t tried to chat-up any underage girls.
Challenge: impossible
Lul you’re not kidding. It’s crazy to see how often you hear that happening and it happens with all sorts of youtubers not just weeb and gamers.
Nazis ruin everything. Just like how the Nazis ruined the skinhead subculture.
The Youtube algorithm just showed me a video about that the other day. I didn’t even know that they originally had nothing to do with being right-wing fascists.
My entire understanding of skinheads was “skinheads are fascists” and I never delved any deeper into it. Until the other month when my barber told me I should consider getting a chelsea cut, my gut reaction being “why would I want to look like a neonazi?”
But one simple online search later, and I went back for the shave. The original sentiment of the skinhead culture is slowly being reclaimed, though there will always be two potential interpretations of what someone with that style stands for, I’ll happily rock my skinbird cut at union rallies and antifa protective counter-protests when actual nazis try to raid our local queer clubs.
… Is google pulling up the wrong kind of Chelsea cut? You must have some interesting barbers lol.
https://duckduckgo.com/?t=h_&q=chelsea+cut&iax=images&ia=images
but that’s bing 🤓☝
Unfortunately any anti-establishment counter-culture movement that is predominantly white will attract Nazis. And these nazis sometimes don’t even know they are one. You even see it in some far left movements. There are people in those movements who call themselves lefties yet have espoused right wing fascist ideology
How predominantly white were the original skinheads? Because it was hugely Jamaican influenced.
For what it’s worth, Wikipedia says:
In addition to retaining many mod influences, early skinheads were very interested in Jamaican rude boy styles and culture, especially the music: ska, rocksteady, and early reggae (before the tempo slowed down and lyrics became focused on topics like black nationalism and the Rastafari movement).[1][12][13]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinhead
Which sort of implies it was a white people thing that was influenced by black culture but not when it was too black.
I have no real idea of the demographics though. I shave my head, but it’s because I hate sitting in a barber chair making smalltalk and I save money not doing it.
Which sort of implies it was a white people thing that was influenced by black culture but not when it was too black.
I can see why you might think that from reading about it in 2024 but I’d suggest to you that the tempo slowdown is the major factor. Ska is an uptempo party music. Rocksteady slowed the tempo down and Reggae generally kept the tempo at that slower pace.
Also there was a progression of people leaving skinhead for rock following more high energy bands like The Who and The Small Faces and going through the psychedelic changes into Rock at the end of the sixties.
The fans of ska had no problem with reggae, especially Bob Marley, who was collaborating with Mick Jagger in no time. It’s just they’d moved on from skinhead because the scene had become much more associated with violence. There was also the very deliberate efforts of the National Front to recruit football supporters during the early 70s heyday of football hooliganism. A lot of the people that were into violence were attracted to the second wave of skinhead just as cultural changes to the music in Jamaica and the UK meant that a lot of the first wave were evolving into mods and then some of them hippies and eventually you see the emergence of street punk at the end of the 70s.
As for Rastafarianism, that was not at the time a dogmatic religion like Catholicism or the Moonies but arose out of cultural immersion and community practice in the places in Jamaica where most of its adherents lived. I don’t think it is a matter of being too black, it’s just that it’s very specific to Jamaica and eventually the Jamaican diaspora.
Edit: It’s no accident that the third wave of skinhead was kickstarted by Two Tone and was explicitly multi-racial and also that Two Tone harked back to uptempo ska.
I HATE the small talk! My barber gives me a scalp massage too, really scratching it up, and that’s just awful too. I’ve asked him not to do it but it’s part of his routine and he does it automatically. My ideal barber would let me fall asleep in the chair.
Skinheads against racial prejudice – SHARPS.
I know people are saying it’s a Black Metal issue, but uh… Pantera :(
Oh goddammit.
Yeah I can’t even listen to ‘Walk’ anymore, fuck.
Yeah Nazis are a problem in pretty much all subcultures. Industrial, punk, goth, and so on. Subcultures attract people who don’t feel like they have a place, and this is the group extremist groups target.
Yeah Nazis are a problem in pretty much all subcultures
I don’t know if I agree with that; well, I agree they’re always a problem, but if you’re a Jazz or Blues fan for example, I imagine there aren’t the same issues we have in Metal.
They get the other side of the coin. Friend of mine has played harmonica for a long time, has played with/been in numerous blues bands. You will find a lot of heavily anti-white, black nationalism. Like the “we need to exterminate all white people for any chance at peace and prosperity” types.
Last I checked, yes here it is:
As an ideology, black nationalism encompasses a diverse range of beliefs which have variously included forms of economic, political and cultural nationalism, or pan-nationalism.[9][7] It often overlaps with, but is distinguished from, similar concepts and movements such as Pan-Africanism, Ethiopianism, the back-to-Africa movement, Afrocentrism, Black Zionism, and Garveyism.[5] Critics of black nationalism say it promotes racial and ethnic nationalism, separatism and black supremacy, and they compare it to white nationalism and white supremacy. However, the Southern Poverty Law Center says that black nationalist groups exist in a “categorically different” environment than white nationalists in the United States.
I’m white, my dad (also white) played blues guitar, and I’ve never run into anything remotely like what you’re describing.
And if it turns out that the SPLC was totally wrong, and ‘Black Nationalism’ takes over and commits genocide on white people, that’s definitely something we’ll be worried about.
Well your experience has been very different. He has been handed literature explaining how the prosperity of the african people can not exist in world with europeans and asians. My friend is not white, might be the difference here. He has run into numerous recruiters for this ideology in a number of different forms. Any form of ethnonationalism is bad. Just because where you live, it is a minority, and therefore isn’t some eminent concern of going third reich, does not make it not bad.
I would’ve thought Dimebag’s guitar would’ve given it away long before this.
ARE YOU TALKING TO ME?
MOTHERFUCKER!
RE
SPECT
WALK.
Metal bands are mostly nazis? Is that the news “satanic scare” like we had in the 80’s?
Not metal generally, but you should look into Black Metal. It’s a real problem there… :-/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Socialist_black_metal_bands
Lol, a lot of those names are a little too on the nose. I mean Kristalnacht and Infernall SS? Can’t imagine making a wrong assumption on those
says Death Metal
links Black Metal
Yeah, already corrected it. Morning Rush.
That’s why I stay away from these labels. Not against them, but I can’t tell what is what.
It’s generally not that hard, when you listen to metal.
Yeah, power and folk are good, anything else is bad. Easy.
/s
Pfff
When I used to have time to figure that out Metallica and Megadeth were still in their good phase, with 4 albums each. And no internet. There was like heavy metal, death, and eventually Nord or something. And these would cover any bands.
Sounds like trash and speed existed as well in your time. Black perhaps too, not sure if I’m remembering history well.
It certainly existed as a style, but not sure as a name. At least in my circles we didn’t call them that.
This is a tiny portion of black metal in a sub genre . But it isn’t surprising that an extreme genre with a strong counter culture doesn’t have some extreme spin-offs.
Also you can tell which bands are in NSBM because they are all terrible at actually making music.
Of course there are nazis bands, especially I’m black metal. But that’s a minority, and they generally suck anyway. But I’m not into BM at all personally, so I don’t bother tbh.
It’s not a majority, but it is a higher risk factor. Especially when Sweden/Finland produce a lot of metal bands and are also a higher risk factor for nazi sympathy - by and large they certainly don’t idealize them but they also aren’t always vilified to the same level as you might expect elsewhere
It’s also something that’s more related to some genres of music than others. It’s definitely a much bigger issue in metal than you would find in, say, jazz or electronica. On the other hand, it’s more overt than the kind of Nazis you find in country music, and they get much more publicized.
It’s definitely a much bigger issue in metal than you would find in, say, jazz or electronica.
For a while, and I assume it continues today, there was/is a synth subgenre called fashwave, a Nazi-adjacent take on vaporwave. I imagine they have a niche elsewhere in the electro scene, and prob. industrial too?
Fascists have no culture of their own except violence, they have to steal everyone else’s.
Well that’s just lovely. I shouldn’t be surprised.
Nazi Jazz
Hrm 🤔
There was a whole movie made about how the Nazis weren’t all that into jazz.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108265/
Although they did record some as propaganda to play back at the west over the radio.
The good ol’ American tradition of forcing squaredance onto kids in schools—I was a victim myself from the ‘80s to the mid ‘90s—was borne of the fear and disgust of the black and Jewish roots of jazz, with Hitler idol Henry Ford being a big advocate for it.
Yep, and one of the ways cannabis was demonized in the first half of the 20th century was by associating it with jazz culture, making it very much something that “they” did.
When I was in high school, the worry was finding a cool punk band and discovering they were skinheads.
“skinhead” isnt as settled a term as it may appear. Nazi fucks gave punk a bad name by getting associated with them.
https://www.gq.com/story/punks-and-nazis-oral-history
Some reading for those unfamiliar.
Theres a good documentary i cant find explaining the history of skinheads. If i find it ill post it too
Reading these comments is making me sweat nervously because I made an 80s-themed submod for a racing game with era-appropriate metal music, and it seems that a decent chunk of the bands I chose for the soundtrack turned out to be fascist or fascist-sympathizing 😓
People who listened to Lostprophets in 200X
I’d argue that the problem with Lost Prophets wasn’t necessarily their political views though…
Yeah, it was entirely the music.
Never happened to me, but I also don’t listen to metal.
Bold of you to assume I know anything about the artists I listen to
Saw a random YouTuber I thought I liked do a livestream. He usually does reactionary or random updates content.
I go in and he’s ragging on Biden and I see people doing SuperChats with pro-Trump messages and just casual racism. Apparently, Biden’s PR person probably should have been white according to these guys. I ducked out, was quite kinda sad.
Did one or more of the members kill
A) themselves
B) another band member
C) Random strangers by burning down a church
Congratulations you’re listening to old school Mayhem
Reading Varg’s insanity on Twitter is a hoot.
Oh yeah. Real interesting dude
Dethklok seems pretty safe.
There isn’t all that much out there about Brendon Small though and what I could find he should be a decent enough person…plus I liked Metalocalypse quite a bit, so that helps me 😁
Dunno much about Bryan Beller, Nili Brosh or Gene Hoglan, just saw a few random videos with them so hard to gauge.
Gojira are environmental and humanist activists to a certain degree. At least in their music that is.
Plus they fucking rock, holy shit.
WHAAAAAAAAAALES
But yeah having a whole song about the Amazon burning that happens to also have some stellar riffs? Yeah I’m on board
Brendon Small made Home Movies. He has to be a decent person. I will be very upset if he isn’t. I may have to go poke him in the eye if he isn’t.
Years ago, Brendan Small did a couple of characters on Comedy Bang Bang who, while being absolutely fucking hilarious and source of some of the top moments on the podcast, were kinda problematic, coming off as ethnic caricature. He quit doing those characters in 2017, for I think pretty obvious reasons, though I’m not sure whether anyone ever called him out on it. I assume it was similar to PFT’s rationale for dropping Ice-T from his own repertoire. In any event, you can take this however you will.
When I was like 13 and was learning to play guitar, I learned sooo many songs by Avenged Sevenfold. And then I saw pictures of them playing concerts with the confederate flag, and even had custom confederate flag guitars. I lived a pretty sheltered life and didn’t quite understand how big of a deal that was at the time, but it definitely felt a little gross to me. I slowly stopped listening to them.
They did eventually come out and say that they regret doing that, for what it’s worth. But I never went back to listening to them.
Is Sepultura safe?
I’d say yes. According to their German Wikipedia entry, they support Sea Shepherd, environment and wildlife protection, and indigenous people in their fight against deforestation.
OBG
deleted by creator
Biboca, garagem, favela, porra!
…or pedos.
Well, that’s the entire music industry until 1990 right out
