Do any of them know what the word “liberal” actually means?
Do you know what the word ‘liberal’ actually means
It has 2 common definitions:
- Neo-liberal: a political approach that favors free-market capitalism, deregulation, and reduction in government spending
- Leftism in general.
You’re almost never going to hear the right-wing use #1. Authoritarian communists will use #1 as a catch-all for modern capitalism.
The US is such a right wing country that liberals are the mainstream left. In Europe, liberals are centrists and they aren’t further to the right than American libs.
The meme says “American Republicans” so I thought we were considering this from an American pov. Definitions are going to change going to other countries and doubly so when talking about politics.
It isn’t just about it meaning something else when ‘going to another country’. ‘Liberal’ has an actual definition with a history.
I’m honestly kind of confused about american liberals digging their heals in on this definition when it has historically been taken to mean something they don’t seem to agree with anymore.
I’m honestly kind of confused about american liberals digging their heals in on this definition when it has historically been taken to mean something they don’t seem to agree with anymore.
Because regardless of history or whatever, the definition were giving you is how the 300 million Americans who actually use the term define liberal. Doesn’t matter what you or I think, if we want to have effective communication we need to use words as they are used. I really don’t feel like dying on that particular hill.
I made my stand with “literally”, I’m not wasting effort on holding fast to a Eurocentric definition of liberal.
Doesn’t matter what you or I think, if we want to have effective communication we need to use words as they are used.
I don’t actually disagree with you, I just find it frustrating trying to use a more precise meaning to make a point and being met with resistance. I think a part of the problem is that leftists are trying to point at a distinction that exists within the overbroad american-liberal label that separates leftism proper and center-right democratic institutions, and i feel as if some centrists don’t enjoy the discomfort of being singled out from the more progressive side of the caucus. I could be wrong, and I don’t really care if I am, but I think it’s important to acknowledge the tensions and to try not to erase the diversity of ideology that exists within the ‘liberal party’.
I think Leftists are trying to play up those tensions more than they truly exist, and some of the smarter ones are specifically exploiting the difference in terminology to do so. “Liberals”, in the US, are actually quite left wing (outside of the “anyone right of Lenin is literally Hitler” lemmy bubble). But by associating US liberals with European economic liberals, it muddies the water and allows for a ton of motte-and-bailey style arguments.
‘Liberal’ has an actual definition with a history.
The word “awful” has an actual definition with a history too. That history starts with it meaning “full of awe”
https://www.etymonline.com/word/awfulWord usage and definitions change over time. If you know people use a word differently then you need to at least explain the definition you are using or you’re just going to confuse or alienate people who understand the word differently.
I’ll happily state my case for whatever usage I’m adopting, and ask for clarification when I suspect someone is operating on a different one, but I don’t see any case to be made for the vague american label when discussing anything beyond american electoral politics - for the same reason i’m happy to jab at the usage in the same context, because it’s the assumption of neutrality it asserts that I take issue with and am calling attention to.
But the definition doesn’t really change. Take universal healthcare. A liberal idea that’s considered common sense in Europe and left wing in the US. Obamacare would be something you expect from a center right European and a left American. Both are called liberal.
And if the meme was from an exclusively American pov, it wouldn’t specify “American Republicans”
You’re correct, I specified “American republicans” to refer to the political party because everywhere else “republican” means anti-monarchist
Yeah, this is about as confusing as it gets, I feel like those labels rarely make much sense :(
Liberalism has never meant “leftism in general.” It has always been an ideology supporting the individual via private property rights. Neoliberalism is the modern form of it.
Liberalism was considered left when feudalism was right, but liberalism has never meant leftism.
It’s extremely frustrating hearing this repeated so often here.
It’s fine if this is the colloquial definition you’re used to hearing and using, but this is certainly not the way it’s used outside of American politics and pretending like it’s the only use comes off as both ill-informed and condescending.
When used derisively from the left, rest assured it is not referring to either of your adopted generalizations but a very specific ideology.
Ok. But this meme says American Republican.
The meme also says ‘authoritarian communists’ but there are plenty of anarchists and socialists who use liberal as a disparagement.
pretending like it’s the only use comes off as both ill-informed and condescending.
That works both ways. Pretending the European usage of the word is the only use comes off just as ill-informed and condescending.
The people who are using liberal derisively are playing off the american liberal self-identity. They’re acknowledging both definitions in the jab.
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I’m sorry but this is just flat out wrong in the way that only an American can be wrong
Thanks for your input. I learned a lot.
Open-minded, permissive, tolerant
Look rather than dunk on you, I’m going to recommend Mike Duncan’s Revolutions podcast, because it gives a fair overview of what the liberal revolutions were about, why socialism grew out of that moment, and how there came to be this irreconciliable beef between liberalism and socialism. The whole thing is great, but 1848 is the real crisis point if all you care about is the schism.
Pff… you’re way too nice to not be a liberal
There’s a difference between ideology and affect. I’m sure plenty of Nazis are “nice”
OK, but that’s not what the word liberal actually means to most people in my experience. Or perhaps another way of saying it is that a lot of people I see getting angry on Lemmy read the word “liberal” and assume economically liberal, whereas every person I’ve ever encountered IRL would use it to mean socially liberal.
With respect, if you describe yourself as liberal, vote for an economically liberal party, and refuse even to accept economic policy as part of the question, I think the “authoritarian leftists” have your number tbh
In the US political media ‘Liberal’ is deliberately used to reference the policies of the Democratic Party, which is demonstrably Neoliberal. This confusion is working as intended.
Thanks Rush Limbaugh and all the hellspawn you’ve enabled.
This confusion is working as intended.
And is exploited by tankies/fascists. By making “liberal” an insult from both the right and the left, using different definitions, they solidify in the mind if low information voters that Democrats are bad. Republicans, by being left out of this insulting, sound better by comparison.
It doesn’t even need to be an insult. It was and is an inherently anti-left strategy to correlate ‘Liberal’ to the Democratic Party and it is exactly what American political media does. (Hence my reference to Rush Limbaugh.) The goal is to inject confusion into the terminology to the point where your average low information voter/liberal can’t differentiate between the left and the right: or a tankie and a fascist.
That’s because the socially liberal definition is almost exclusively American, and lemmy has a large number of EXTREMELY Eurocentric users. Almost like a weird mirror world of the typical “everything is assumed to be American until proved otherwise” in most social media.
According to lemmy, there’s the American definition, and then there’s the correct definition. And they’re not being tongue in cheek about it, they’re serious.
The very idea that a liberal can’t be socialist and a socialist can’t be liberal is nonsensical. They are orthogonal concepts.
The division between liberals and socialists is plainly promoted in order to divide people.
Liberalism supports Capitalism, Socialism supports Socialism. They are incompatible.
That’s ridiculous. Liberal socialist societies have been and still are the best to live in.
No such thing.
lmao
“I spread my butter liberally.”
You can tell this was made by a salty neo lib
It’s really funny how no one really likes liberals but liberals.
Conservatives: “They’re too freedom loving for my tastes! Why can’t they just stay and home and be good corporate stooges like us?”
Auth-Communists: “They claim to like freedom but still willingly use the capitalist forces to oppress who they like. Liberals are okay with personal freedom until it impacts the white moderates.
That’s our job!”Anarchists: “It’s literally weird to call yourself a liberal when all they do is oppose any movement against the status quo. If they can’t convert them to sell away their soul to the state or capitalism, they’re terrorists. They’re more like conservatives than any actual progressives, and even progressives admit 100% capitalism isn’t great.”
Libertarian capitalists: “They claim to be for freedom but constantly require the state to check in on if people are enjoying their freedom like that Nanny’s they never had. I just wanna grill for god’s sake!”
Like it’s just funny to me no matter where you are on the political spectrum, you have a somewhat decent reason to hate liberals (except conservatives are too stupid to tell liberals apart from “commies”).
You could build that list for every political party/perspective
“My party is committing genocide and lost all of its credibility and ethos. Boo hoo.”
At least they aren’t using the word “progressive” anymore.
don’t usually agree on that much
Where have you been the last 8 years
Yeah Tankies/AuthComs are just such an odd mixture of accelerationists, “own the libs” and just general stupidity of “a strong man makes strong men” bullshit that they support any fascist if it means maybe someday they might not be on the chopping block.
If Tankies were an actual voting bloc they’d be somewhat impactful for the first time since maybe 1949. That would imply going outside however.
Remember, men who want a strong man want to be dominated, therefore they are themselves weak
They agree on a lot more than you’d think, once you parse out each cult’s different groupspeak
FDR, Churchill , Hitler, and Mussolini also had a lot in common when you get down to it. Same as humans and chimpanzees. It’s the differences that actually matter.
Republicans are also liberals. At least in the true sense of the word. So it’s low-key funny when they use the term liberal as an insult.
I myself am not a liberal. Fiscally at least. Socially I’m a progressive.
In American political terminology, “liberal” means a different thing than in Europe. It implies being left-wing on social issues. Republicans by definition cannot be liberals (in the American sense of the term).
It would be like saying “it’s funny when Americans say they’re going to ‘wear their boot’, how are you going to wear part of your car?”
They are using a different definition of the word, and pretending they aren’t is being wilfully ignorant at best. Pretending the other definition doesn’t exist just serves to alienate people who might actually agree with you.
Yes, leftists absolutely know what the word “liberal” means. It refers to a pro-Capitalist ideology centered around the idea of individual freedoms via private property rights.
Leftists disagree that allowing private property creates a freer population, and understand that Liberalism is the dominant ideology in developed Capitalist nations.
I am the only true leftist. The rest of you are posers and/or feds.
Hey, I’m neither of those. I’m an op!
The Other Kind of Leftists
Please tell me this tweet isn’t real
Godammit
Would him putting on the Darth Vader armor be an analogue to many “toxic” leftists using doxxing sites dominated by the far-right to try and ruin the lives of people that aren’t 100% into Stalin?
putting on the Darth Vader armor
doxxing sites dominated by the far-right
Yes. Becoming an unkillable cyborg space wizard and outting someone paying for a message board full of Nazi copypasta are the same.
I use lib for shared objects.
Tell me you don’t hang out with anarchists without telling me…
There’s only one axis on the political spectrum, and everyone left of Biden (a rightwinger) is a tankie, isn’t this obvious?
no, everyone right of “I won’t vote at all in 2024 because I refuse to vote for Biden” is a conservative
didn’t you get the memo
Or marxists even lol
I used to think it just was synonymous with the left, but I’ve recently been seeing a lot of comments on Lemmy saying liberals aren’t leftist so now I am not sure if it means anything or if those Lemmings are just dumb.
I’ve grown up with the term “bleeding heart liberals” being applied to groups like Green Peace and hippies that promote love and unity by people who are just complete pieces of shit, and in that context I was always like “I guess I’m a liberal 🤷🏻♂️”
My thoughts exactly! Every real-life human I’ve ever spoken to uses it to mean open-minded and every definition I look up agrees, yet for some reason half the people posting here think it exclusively means economically-neo-liberal capitalist.
Perhaps they are seeing “free enterprise” and associating that with being something only pertaining to capitalism, even though you can have free enterprise without capitalism.
The context is typically pretty important for how it is being used. The user of the term often provides more than enough context I find.
If ‘liberal’ is being used in a derogatory sense, which isn’t going to be captured by an academic definition, it’s often aimed at neoliberalism in a pretty broad sense.
Which is probably what this meme is referring to: the shared rejection of neoliberalism. The motivations are different but that’s immaterial to these things. I mean: it is specifically referencing an American political party here: so I wouldn’t be looking for a political science definition on ‘liberal’.
American liberals are not neolibs. Neolibs are Republicans.
Those statements are both true, but: Neoliberalism dominates both political parties in the United States and has for generations. The Democratic Party is also neoliberal, (often in spite of their voters.)
The Republican Party’s neoliberalism has fostered fascist and christian nationalist factions to the point they may take over.
The Democratic Party’s stance has been to try and absorb disaffected Republican neoliberal voters from the above.
Which leaves ‘non-neoliberal American liberals’ with the choice of supporting… well it is and has been a successful right wing strategy to say the least.
The Democratic Party’s stance has been to try and absorb disaffected Republican neoliberal voters from the above.
That’s a leftist idea that Leftists just made up and are running with due to their own echo chambers. Dems do like capturing centrists, especially now the GOP has gone off the rails, but the coalition is absolutely led by progressives who push progressive policies as much as they can. The theory is to capture disaffected centrists and win them over with clearly superior Democrat policies and positions. Doesn’t always work, but that’s the play. When the Democratic party allows oil leases or higher border funding, it doesn’t do so skipping with joy. It does so reluctantly as part of a compromise to win other gains.
This is the part where you get out the tin foil hats and claim that despite all evidence to the contrary, Democrats actually secretly want every bad thing ever to happen. Because they’re just that evil.
Dems do like capturing centrists,
Doesn’t always work, but that’s the play.
Sure doesn’t. Very strong arguments to my point.
You didn’t even read it did you lol
Just like “aha, everything you said actually supports me!” like you think it’s some sort of debate uno reverse card
It’s easier than accepting nuance, and it’s usually from the same people who demonstrate that same lack of nuance in everything else they post.
1 favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.
2 noting or pertaining to a political party advocating measures of progressive political reform.
3 of, pertaining to, based on, or advocating liberalism, especially the freedom of the individual and governmental guarantees of individual rights and liberties.
4 favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, especially as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.
5 favoring or permitting freedom of action, especially with respect to matters of personal belief or expression:
6 of or relating to representational forms of government rather than aristocracies and monarchies.
7 free from prejudice or bigotry; tolerant
8 open-minded or tolerant, especially free of or not bound by traditional or conventional ideas, values, etc.
Only 5,7 and 8 are “open minded” Being favorable to progress does not mean being open minded and what constitutes as progressive is in itself up to debate. Individual rights and liberties can be understood as neo-liberal capitalism of “well the law allows you, your economic situation doesn’t concern us, and now back to slaving 60 hours a week.” Or it could mean “We need to enable people to enjoy their liberties so we need to ensure their basic human dignity with healthcare, education and social welfare to empower them.”
what the fuck is number 1 then?
favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.
what is number 2 then?
noting or pertaining to a political party advocating measures of progressive political reform.
I think if you go point by point and ignore the rest then you can argue semantics, but I don’t see how you can take all 8 together and argue what “progressive” means
Being favorable to reform does not mean being open minded. Open minded means to respect different people and their life choices. People hostile to traditional family or religious values are also “progressive” but often not open minded as they criticize people who choose a traditional way of life.
The same goes for economic aspects. Neoliberalism is highly authoritarian. Specifically it is embraced by neofeudalists who want to reestablish their old feudal privileges but not through formal aristocracy, but by the merit of “free contracts” and them holding on to wealth. These are technically “progressive” yet they want to reintroduce power structures from a time past.
Some authoritarians strongly believe that they’re far left. But an authoritarian regime cannot be left. If you’re not liberal, you’re an authoritarian, not left, and it doesn’t matter what type of authoritarian bull shit you’re subscribing to.
I used to think it just was synonymous with the left, but I’ve recently been seeing a lot of comments on Lemmy saying liberals aren’t leftist so now I am not sure if it means anything or if those Lemmings are just dumb.
I’ve been fucking telling you, insisting on a Eurocentric definition confuses people, and that confusion is exploited by fascists.
American definition of liberal: socially liberal
European definition of liberal: economically liberal
‘Liberal’ is one of those words that has so many definitions that it can have contradictory meanings. It can mean ‘open to / tolerant of’. It can denote a style of education that tries to be broad rather than deep. It can describe various political positions - the ‘Liberal Party’ is left-wing in Chile, centrist in the UK and Canada, and right-wing in Russia, Japan and Australia. This is also what OP is memeing about. At this point, to avoid confusion, I would just avoid using the word except in the purely academic / technical sense.
Almost like AuthComs are authoritarian before they are communist, and thus have more in common with the American Fascist Party than any actual leftists.
Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleed…
Authoritarian Communist
I see this term used so often from the lofty reaches of some national news rag or echoing out of a Senate star chamber. The CEO is stamping it into an EULA, as an irrevocable term of service. The corporate union-buster is putting it up in 120 point font in a company wide mandatory power point presentation. The evangelical minister is denouncing it from the pulpit as part of a catechism call-and-response. The nosey neighbor is whispering it into the phone, hoping a SWAT team will remove someone from the block. The police holding you face down in a bucket of water are screaming it in your ears.
Beware the authoritarian communist. Beware the tankies. Beware the Chinese / Russian / Venezuelan social terrorists, fifth columnists, and outside agitators. Beware the college kid in the Che Guevera t-shirt. Beware the Anti-American. Whatever you think we might be doing to you now, they’ll be ten times worse.
It’s just a more politically correct way to say tankie.
I’ve never heard a cop called a Tankie.
But they’re always the ones in the large militant unions demanding more public money while driving around in actual tanks.
To be fair, Chinese cops would probably be tankies.
Few carry guns. I don’t think I’ve ever seen the Chinese police equivalent to the NYPD Police Tank that was used to raid the Columbia campus.
Meaningless distinction. Whether it’s military or whatever. Whichever state supported group is shooting and beating and arresting protestors in China, they’re tankies.
Whichever state supported group is shooting and beating and arresting protestors in China
I’m more concerned with the police lashing out at protesters closer to home
Whichever state supported group is shooting and beating and arresting protestors in
ChinaAmerica, they’re tankies.FTFY
Usually because it’s a fascist doing the scratching, so the liberal punches him
What an absolutely childish and moronic way or rewriting history. Typical lib.
That’s all Cryophillia does, lol. Attempt to rewrite definitions and history.
Also call out tankies and fash pretending to be tankies.
Hello!
Nah, you just call anyone left of Social Democrats “tankie,” lol.
Most of em are
It’s an infestation
Everything is scary when you’re scared of everything.
Punching Nazis into dust since 1941. Commies too.
You’re just salty because our superior ideology beat yours into dust (this applies if you’re an actual communist or just a right wing agitator pretending to be one).
Lib bashing in left spaces is the mating cry of the tanky
It might be cathartic every so often, but too much makes the wrong people feel safe.
“Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism, free markets, representative democracy, legal rights and state monopoly on violence. It includes a large portion of the present day political spectrum, from the centre-left social democrats to the far-right conservatives and American libertarians.”
That is… a lot of people
Yes. Liberalism is the dominant ideology in the World today.
I tend to see the derogatory ‘Liberal’ and moreso ‘Lib’ used for Neo-liberals and those supporting the neoliberal policies that have dominated the last few generations.
I otherwise see it used in the context of the phrase “scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds” which is pithy but tracks with history and typically the more antagonistic usage. It is almost entirely used to provoke a reaction from the ‘libs’ it is directed at, accuracy notwithstanding.
With context it is almost always pretty self explanatory which is being used.
