“b-but bears are actually dangerous!” Shut the hell up.
I have some extra emotional capacity today so(see edit*) I’ll post some wrong think: but can we stop antagonizing populations that feel disenfranchised by society and therefor giving the truly evil fucks out there an easy population to brainwash and feed extra scummy ideologies to?Young nerdy men who feel excluded from society that dont have any strong female figures in their life are barraged by a constant stream of messaging that could easily be interpreted as “(white) men are evil and the source of all problems with society”
By constantly antagonizing them for not being able to navigate the political nuance of those messages, we give an incredibly easy pathway to the more toxic ideologies that the Tates of the world will pull them into to profit off of them, because they are the only figures who will give them praise and a sense of belonging.
Edit: Its a new day now, and I no longer have the energy. If you want to vent, understanding that venting in this manner will bring about little to no positive change, you do you, I will no longer be responding
I wanted to post something like this but could not write it well. Thanks for posting it.
Yeah, thats why I posted this. I’m having a good day today, and so I was able to find the words that others who’ve been affected by the bear meme struggled to find the words to. If I get some flak for it, I have the emotional space to explain my reasoning
Don’t forget the other side, I’ve seen some of the discussions around this by women turn really TERFy. Both sides of this debate are gateways to the Alt right.
Tbh the TERF stuff isnt surprising since a lot of these memes have just a hint of Misandry to them, and when it comes to TERFs, they dont see Trans Women as women, and see them as men, so its moreso their ideas on men that are guiding their ideology, than it is about women
can we stop antagonizing populations that feel disenfranchised by society and therefor giving the truly evil fucks out there an easy population to brainwash and feed extra scummy ideologies to?
Young nerdy men who feel excluded from society that dont have any strong female figures in their life are barraged by a constant stream of messaging that could easily be interpreted as “(white) men are evil and the source of all problems with society”
I think it’s a two-pronged problem.
Young men are encouraged to be aggressive, thin-skinned, and superficial. They’re sold this idea of sex as a reward for climbing to the top of some nebulously defined social hierarchy rather than an expression of intimacy with a romantic partner.
Meanwhile, young women are victims of the Madonna/Whore complex, simultaneously expected to be sexual and virginal, model-esque and down-to-earth, your plaything and your mom. They’re this thing men are expected to fight over, but also personally responsible for the drama created by this social expectation.
And so much of this engineered conflict revolves around selling you something. Gym memberships or diet supplements or fashion accessories or self-help classes or luxury status symbols are all supposed to be a thing we can buy into in order to climb the ladder to an ideal romantic life. All to commodify the idea of love.
By constantly antagonizing them for not being able to navigate the political nuance of those messages, we give an incredibly easy pathway to the more toxic ideologies that the Tates of the world will pull them into to profit off of them
Guys like Andrew Tate are ultimately just bullies. And bullying is a tool that one class of people use to force the others to conform and submit. So much of this boils down to Tate inducting new members of his cult of personality by sending older members out to jump them in.
The only real remedy is to shut these guys down. Stand together. Stick up for your friends and neighbors in the face of fascist bullying. Push back.
Also known as: can we please stop pushing people into evil echo chambers by “moderating” them through auto ban because opinion we don’t like? Its not only men vs women, it applies to anything slightly divisive.
We wouldn’t need the super thick skin that is needed now if we hadn’t banned all the people back in the day for merely disagreeing. They went to more evil places and now, consequently, are more evil. We are kinda reaping what we sowed
This is so extremely well put.
You do help by expressing things so succinctly
spoiler
,
good comment regarding the ongoing presentation of this meme. i encourage folks who read this to make posts that welcome young men and encourage them to understand the nuance, rather than judge them a priori for not already getting it.
that said it’s important to note that the origin of this meme was i believe just a
anonymouspoll where women expressed their lived experience and wasn’t meant to be antagonistic at all. bad men were the ones that took offense to what these women felt and made the meme what it is.not saying you don’t know any of this just feel it’s worth being said :) thank you for your nuanced and leveled criticism of the rhetorical value of the trend.
L M A O white nerdy young men are not the perfect angels you think, I have multiple friends who were sexually assaulted by such people
This right here is the reason I still bother to engage people on this topic. The women who honestly believe a bear is less threatening than a random man are a lost cause imo, so my goal is to help men find supportive people and spaces that aren’t dangerous idiots like Tate.
You can be a man without being forced to exist in the manufactured redpill/male feminist dichotomy.
I am a man and I am affected 0% by this meme. This meme was a chance to display some empathy and understand why it might be that the bear analogy strikes a chord with many women.
When I go to the grocery store, do I have to think about being snatched? My privilege affords me the convenience of not worrying about that. Do I need to worry about being sexually assaulted walking home? Statistically, probably not. There are a whole host of problems and horrific fates that befall women disproportionately, and very often at the hands of men.
Why would a woman feel safer with a bear?
The 750,000 black bears of North America kill less than one person per year on the average, while men ages 18-24 are 167 times more likely to kill someone than a black bear.
Most attacks by black bears are defensive reactions to a person who is too close, which is an easy situation to avoid. Injuries from these defensive reactions are usually minor.
https://bear.org/bear-facts/how-dangerous-are-black-bears
Since 1784 there have been 82 fatal human/bear conflicts by wild brown bears in North America. Yellowstone National Park has seen a mere 8 since being established in 1872, which is only one more than the number of people who have died from a falling tree.
https://bearvault.com/bear-attack-statistics/
Seems to me that even I would be safer with a bear than a man. Makes you think, doesn’t it?
yeah this pretty much.
Polarized speech does nothing for anybody. If woman are talking about this bear thing to make a point, i feel like we would be better off actually making sure that people understood that it was about making a point, rather than a literal fucking interpretation of the problem
but no, funny internet points are more important, capitalism ruins everything it fucking touches.
But many do just that, then you focus on the ones that don’t, every cycle. Over and over. You choose what to focus on. Not we as a society, literally you. You choose to engage with that negative part of it and continue to. Nobody is forcing you
These kinds of things are great for letting off steam with friends, but absolutely TERRIBLE at getting a point across to people who dont already know said point
specifically the intent here is to drum up drama, controversy and attention. Which obviously worked, but the problem is that nobody is using it to do something productive with.
The problem with your logic is it creates a situation where society at large will never talk about this important topic and think about ways to reduce the scope and impact of it.
The sad reality is that men are largely responsible for SA, and saying this is always going to make some men uncomfortable. They’re always going to react to negatively, and people are always going to post what you posted.
Man are not evil and I don’t think anyone is making that statement here, but the problem is that we can’t know which men are evil. Of course we should avoid antagonizing them, since, like you said, it often drives young lonely men towards the manosphere, but also men should try actually listening to why most women pick the bear.
I mean yeah, that was my point. Currently though our messaging is insanely antagonistic and there are a LOT of men without women in their lives who can explain this to them. People dont listen to those antagonizing them, the throw their shields/walls up, and seek those who are friendlier to them, which, in this case would be the manpsphere, posts like this only preach to the choir, and push away the men who need to know why women would choose the bear the most.
It’s even worse, a lot of the posts here are outright refusing to explain anything, or branding them as the problem for not understanding immediately.
It’s so insanely bad it almost feels like an incel psyop at times
These young men can … listen to women??? They don’t need to be spoon fed feminism by friends, there is a ton of information available if they care to learn. The fact that they choose to listen to sexist assholes rather than have their feelings hurt for two seconds is part of the problem dumbass
This is not antagonizing men. This is important data for men. Do you want to get laid? Understand where women are coming from. Don’t do spooky shit on dates.
Listen, I understand. It’s bad news, but it is what it is. It’s reality. It’s like women saying if you never take a shower or bath in your entire life, a relationship is out of the question.
The fact that you are trying to pass this off as a way to get laid is honestly disgusting
Why? Women like sex, they also like sex with men. Men like sex. Where is the problem?
You’re either a troll, being the fucked kind of sarcastic, or you have some seriously fucked values…
Ladies and gentlemen, this was their response. If they had a better one, they would have used it.
I’m a woman (a trans one if that matters to you) and have experienced sexual assault and domestic violence from both men and women.
I know the point that people are trying to make with the whole bear thing.
But I think the friction comes from women talk about this as a theoretical to make a point, where men are thinking more literally.
And I do belive that no one in there right mind, if actually given this option in real life, would pick a bear (unless maybe it was definitely one of the more harmless species).
Each and every one of us, even those of us that have survived SA, have had countless uneventful interactions with men you don’t know. Even when it’s just one on one. And its mostly normal biases that makes us remember the shitty ones more. And something a lot of people forget is that the vast majority of SA victims already know their assailant, so the idea of a rando assaulting you is even less likely. So yes I would much rather be in the woods with a man, than a wild fucking animal. And if you’re a reasonable person, then you would too.
(This is me being glib) It depends on what kind of bear we’re talking about. Blackbear be big noisy and confusing, grizzly play dead, big hairy gay guy like best case scenario.
As a trans woman who has also been sexually assaulted, it has more to do for me with what danger is more real to me. I’ve experienced zero bear attacks. Nobody I know has experienced a bear attack. Why would I fear one? Of course, consciously yeah, I know a bear is dangerous, but I have no real world experience to back that assumption up.
Men though? Yeah, I’ve been sexually assaulted by men. I’ve been physically assaulted by men. I’ve had family and friends who’ve been physically and sexually assaulted by men. That danger is real to me. I know that if a man I don’t know is nearby me he could do those things to me, and I have the real world experience to prove that assumption correct (the assumption that they could, not the assumption that they would.)
Therefore, of course I’m more scared of the man than the bear. And of course I’d choose the bear over the man. I don’t care if it’s the wrong choice, I’ll take my chances to not have to relive that trauma, even if it means risking my life. Not like I’ll have time to regret that decision if the bear decides to kill me. Probably. And most women I know when asked expressed the same sentiment in different words. We’re more scared of men than bears, but that doesn’t mean we literally think men are more dangerous than bears.
Is it the logical choice to pick the bear? Probably not, but humans are not logical creatures. I’d rather make the wrong choice than the scary choice.I’ve never been shot or held at gunpoint, but I have have the shit kicked out of me. But still if given the option to face a person with a gun and a person with the bare hands. I don’t think I’m going to pick the the guy with a gun.
There’s a serious difference in the level of trauma between these examples, and the level of exposure to the dangers of the counter. Sexual trauma is a hell of a lot more scarring on your psyche than simply being beaten. In addition, at least in the US we’re exposed to gun violence every day as opposed to basically never for bear attacks. Even in other countries with better gun control, you’re dramatically more likely to hear about somebody being shot than you are to hear about somebody being mauled by a bear. Not only that, but it’s really easy to process “get shot, you’re dead.” It’s not as easy to make yourself believe you’re definitely gonna be killed by an animal that has whole guides written on how to survive them.
Those two things combined make your example far from comparable. In addition, I’m not saying in any way that the fear is justified nor that no attempt should be made to fix it, what I’m trying to point out us that people don’t realize how intense a fear it really is when they get offended at people making this choice.Obviously, therapy is important to learning how to handle that fear and think more logically, but if every woman who needs it sought therapy for this, there just aren’t enough therapists in the entire world to handle the load. Not even close. So a bigger part of the solution is, y’know, making sure women aren’t getting traumatized in the first place. But everybody here wants to skip that part for some reason.
Sexual trauma is a hell of a lot more scarring on your psyche than simply being beaten.
Very hard disagree.
You’re free to disagree, but for me and many others, I’ve been through both, and I’m definitely waaaay more scared of being sexually assaulted again than being beaten half to death again. They have very different effects on your psyche. Physical violence I react far more with anger than fear, even if I was terrified in the moment. When it looks like it’s happening again, my brain says “Fight back.” When I’m afraid of sexual trauma being relived, my brain says “Escape, now. Can’t escape? Submit. Maybe that way they won’t kill you too at least.”
How about you Google the man who’s face was eaten by bear and then decide
How about you miss the entire point and get aggressive for no reason?
Seriously, what kind of response to “I’ve been traumatized by men” is “you should traumatized by bears too?”
👍
Most bears would just walk away from you when you make a loud noise. Men would approach you. So even I as a man, would pick a bear
Downvoted not because it isn’t true, but because they aren’t automatically mutually exclusive and because it is an unnecessary jab at half of the human species. Why are we paying attention to divisive bullshit instead of focusing on things that actually have the potential to help?
What will help?
Purely personal speculation here, I haven’t done any hard reading on the subject:
I suspect we need a two-pronged approach. There’s two issues here. The first one, and by far and away the most important one to address, is the simple fact that women are being assaulted a lot. I don’t think that fact is in question among rational people. The way we’ve been attempting to fix this so far is to tell men to not rape women. It should be pretty obvious that tactic has a very limited potential to help. Anyone willing to listen to women saying to not rape them, isn’t generally interested in raping women in the first place. We need different methods to reach people who either aren’t interested in listening, or who don’t think what they’re doing is “bad”. This will require a lot of work and research, but the first step is acknowledging that the current efforts are not helping.
The second issue is the amplification of toxic mindsets among women. Like I said, this is absolutely not as big a problem, but it is a problem, and it’s one we haven’t been allowed to talk about for fear of being labeled misogynistic. Women say “not all men” as if it’s a joke, but it’s actually a REALLY IMPORTANT TRUE STATEMENT. Men wanting to not be discriminated against should not be the butt of a joke. Sexism is not okay, even in response to sexism. We need to clamp down on that and make it clear that such language is not acceptable.
The phrase “women’s safety is more important than men’s feelings” is just as disingenuous as calling the anti-abortion movement the “pro-life” movement. Because it’s not about women’s safety, everyone here agrees that women’s safety is important. This whole discussion is about women’s perception of safety: women’s feelings.
When you say “women’s safety is more important than men’s feelings”
What you mean is “women’s feelings is more important than men’s feelings”
And that’s not cool. That’s sexism.
Purely personal speculation here, I haven’t done any hard reading on the subject:
When you say “women’s safety is more important than men’s feelings”
What you mean is “women’s feelings is more important than men’s feelings”
Well say no more!
k
Also, wtf, downvoting the guy asking for solutions? Explain yourself, lemmy
Sees question mark
Uh oh. Sorry dude. Downvoted for using the forbidden punctuation. Them’s tha rules…
In reality, it’s not attacking half the human species. It’s actually attacking people who perpetrate SA, and other people who cheerlead for them. One problem is that many men react just the way you reacted. Instead of saying “let’s solve this problem”, you say “quit being so divisive”. Unfortunately, those are your values.
I support sexual assualt because I think associating all men with sexual assault is divisive? Eat shit and die.
“I realized men are evil, masculinity is toxic, these are statements of truth and the only ones who deny this shit are cis men themselves.” - CheesyCheese1 This thread
☝️ Top comment when i got here. This issue brings out as many misandrists as it does misogynists.
Even my gf who wasn’t aware of this meme picked the bear vs a random man when i asked her, so obviously there is a problem. But in reality i don’t give a shit if some rando woman would prefer a bear over me in the woods, whatever makes her feel safer i guess. I do care about being tarred with the rape brush though, and this topic is being used to attack all men rather than just the problem ones.
However, women’s feelings does not equal women’s safety.
This.
How many female teachers have been caught fucking their barely pubescent students this year alone so far?
It isn’t a men-women problem. People just suck.
Yes, but divided people == profit?
True.
deleted by creator
dsfgasfsaf
Yeah I kind of feel where the both of you are coming from, but statistically it is a men-women issue across the world.
Do we need to start throwing out the stats for how many rapist are men compared to women?
Spoiler alert, most rapist are men and it’s not even close.
Yeah, those are very helpful, minority victims don’t deserve help as we all know.
dsfgasfsaf
I don’t disagree that both men and women do heinous things, but women
don’talmost never physically attack or kill a man when he shuns her advances, but men absolutely attack women every day for shunning a man’s advances, and sometimes women get straight up murdered for it.#NotAllMen, but enough men that many women choose the bear.
This isn’t the 1950s, Scooter. Women aren’t viewed as fragile incapable little things anymore because they never really were.
dsfgasfsaf
yes 80+% of violent crime is perpetrated by men. 95% of murders are done by men. 95% of all sexual violence is done by men, and this comes with the caveat that it is highly under reported.
You spelled it wrong, the sign should say “Safety is more important than feelings”
This is specifically about the bear meme though. Way too many men feel personally attacked by women not feeling safe around men they don’t know. Instead of thinking about why that is the men cry and attack the women.
elaborate?
Everyone’s safety is more important than anyone’s feelings.
yeah this is something I can get behind
This is it
You agree with the post, why change it?
To use more inclusive language, of course. That’s what we’re all doing now isn’t it?
Then the post wouldn’t have meaning because that’s a universally agreed upon moral sentiment on its face. The post is targeting people who would rather take offense to recent discourse rather than slowing down and considering how this moral sentiment applies to the situation. Without specifying ‘women’ and ‘men’ the post would not have contextual meaning.
You’re free to make your own ‘inclusive’ meme that states the obvious, but the people this meme is targeted toward would see it as obvious and not consider how it pertains to their behavior.
It has the exact same meaning with the inclusive wording, without being adversarial for absolutely no reason. It would work just as well when said to a man getting butthurt over women choosing the bear.
The wording in the OP is hateful, even if it is saying something morally correct. This is not a “Black Lives Matter” vs “All Lives Matter” situation.
That is exactly the situation. No part of this post is hateful; it’s adversarial because women expressed a justified fear and men just “disagreed” because they don’t like to think about it. The point is to be controversial yet morally correct as a statement. It would absolutely not work just as well if it was inclusive, people would just agree with it and no one would care.
Do you disagree with the statement? It doesn’t sound like you do. What’s the issue? Who is harmed by this post?
You’re being willfully ignorant to peoples points
The “points” you’re referring to dont at all contradict the OP but merely deflect from the issue presented
Imagine if the police brutality movement was called “Black Lives Matter More Than White People’s Need To Oppress”. It’s working a needless insult into the message.
I’d also be okay with other phrases highlighting how safety is a bigger topic for women than men realize, but not one that makes assumptions about “all men”. Even if I was a guy who largely hated the actions of my own gender, you think you’ll get 50% of the world on board by doing that?
Black lives do matter more than white supremacy, which precipitates in a perceived “need” to oppress. That is in fact a very poignant statement of what critical race theory is.
You are on the wrong side of history trying to tone police how women express that they are unsafe.
Even if a statement is truthful, it can be demeaning and misleading.
“Ripping a puppy’s guts out is a very bad thing - so take it under advisement that you should not do that.”
That’s a ridiculous statement that says something truthful and slyly forms the expectation of blame for an issue on a person. Many men have been violent to women - and many whites have oppressed black people. But twisting the wording to generalizing the group makes people feel like it’s directed personally, and forms a psychological barrier to any response.
You’re even doing it in this comment about “wrong side of history” - I’ve done nothing to discourage women being vocal about their safety problems; just the pushing of blame to a group that’s too broad, especially since men need to be in that conversation about stopping sexual violence and encouraging safer spaces if we want actual change.
I’ve done nothing to discourage women being vocal about their safety problems
By participating in this conversation and telling women how best to express their experiences the moment they speak up, like it or not, you are doing precisely that.
Does the sign say “all men”? If it did, would it matter? This is the most engagement I’ve ever seen on Lemmy regarding the issue of women’s safety, sorry you don’t approve of it.
All Safety Matters
Why? The sign seems fine to me.
Because thereal’s version is welcoming and non discriminatory, and the meme is antagonistic by design
Yes, it is antagonistic. But is it bad to be antagonistic to people who think that men’s feelings are more important that women’s safety?
Yeah, ok, with this response and your other one, I’m blocking you now
And nothing of value was lost.
hell of a thing to say about yourself lol
Come to join the fun I see! Do you also think that women’s safety is less important than men’s feelings?
Come on coward, what’s your position?
I see OP noticed how much traction and drama this post stirred up last week so they decided to try it for themselves.
And good for them. It’s an important topic. If you’ve already had your fill of it, you know what to do. But many people here are seeing it for the first time, and many other people are commenting for the first time.
The underlying issues so important that I hope we’re still talking about it next week and next month and next year.
This whole thing is bait.
Anyone engaging on any side of the debate are fools. Any topic antagonizing half the population will somehow stir up some noise.
It’s like saying all women are bad at sport because they don’t train hard enough. It’s ignorant and serves only the purpose of creating a divide in the population.
Stop engaging in the divide.
I like this logical approach.
Also: eat the rich.
That’s quite the universal statement. I think first and foremost, men need to learn that they might not be part of the problem, but that there are many very problematic ones among us.
The feeling of general suspicion is what we need to tackle. If you don’t grasp the problems and their magnitude, you will naturally take offense in being suspected.
We need to take this feeling and turn it into anger towards the disgraceful people that are the reason for the suspicion.
So on the contrary, I think men’s feelings actually matter a lot, if you want to reach a world free of misogyny and violence against women.
Sometimes things aren’t your fault but are your problem. And men making excuses like “just locker room talk” and not confronting other men in their lives who do or say toxic things or espouse ideas or personalities that generally make women uncomfortable are our problems, whether or not they are our fault.
I mean, it depends. I am not my own gender police, I don’t see my life with my peers as “shaping the culture of manhood” because having gender in common is basically irrelevant and there is absolute no sense of belonging for me into “manhood” as a gender. We are not talking about contributing to shape the culture of your organization, or club or something, where there are (or should be) some form of shared values.
In fact, I find this whole idea between silly and sexist, where by sexist I mean rigid attributes applied based on gender.
The way I see it is that I - as a man - have absolutely nothing to do to help with the overall problem and the only way that I can help improve is by not being part of it (in this case, not assault, rape, stalk, harass etc.). That’s pretty much the end of it.
I have no heard a man express what you would call a toxic opinion in like twenty years. And yet women are still just as afraid. Crime rates are at an all-time low, yet women are more afraid than ever.
Whether it’s my problem is my decision. Primarily, it is women’s problem. And they have practical steps they can take to fix that problem. I refuse to make someone else’s problem my own problem, if that other person is ignoring steps they themselves can take to fix it.
I’m all for helping out, but only people who have done the first step themselves.
Women’s general attitude toward this is “It’s my problem but it’s your responsibility to solve it” and I say fuck that. I have my own problems to solve. My life is, in fact, absolutely full of problems that take all my energy to solve.
I have no heard a man express what you would call a toxic opinion in like twenty years.
Your personal experience is not representative of the experience of the rest of the world. Though I am very glad that this has been your experience!
You’d think that it would appear on video maybe once, somewhere on the internet, if it were happening. Can you link to a place where men are saying these things? If not, does that indicate something about the rate at which it’s happening?
I can link to videos of UFOs and videos of dogs walking on their hind legs. Are these defining our culture? If not, what does that imply about something you can’t find a video of?
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/08/us/donald-trump-tape-transcript.html
I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything.
Or for another example, see Andrew Tate and all the idiots who follow him.
This, except that shouldn’t be anger, really.
Anger is a feeling that leads to alienation, and an alienated beast is the most dangerous one.
We should be on a watch for potentially dangerous behaviors and offer help so that people gently unlearn their ways.
That’s not to say people who have already committed some form of abuse shouldn’t be punished, but that we should fight for those who can become dangers and support those who recognize their mistakes and genuinely strive to do better.
The feeling of general suspicion is what we need to tackle.
I agree. This general suspicion is not good. As Bruce Lee says, “Do not be tense, but ready”.
I recommend women take concrete steps to protect their own safety, so they don’t have to be constantly on high alert. That’s a terrible way to live.
I’m doing my part by playing with Arch Linux in my mom’s basement instead of going outside. Where women are. And Arch Linux isn’t. I use Arch btw.
Well I’ll have you know I do the same but with Fedora Linux (like arch Linux but imo better). I use fedora btw.
I’ll have you know my Linux runs on bears. Makes me, and all my many female friends who hang out, more comfortable.
I don’t like much bloat in my Linux though; just the bare necessities.
Feel however you want, but don’t drag me into the what other people have done. I don’t deserve the prejudice, and I’d rather just not interact with you.
Who’s dragging you into stuff? No one has said that all men are worse than bears.
You are, right now. This post was, as well as every other post. I’m not just going to sit here and bite my tongue. The entire thing was designed as an attack to get a rise out of people, and here it is. Thanks to whoever made this post.
What kind of person would I be if I weren’t willing to defend myself?
Okay then defend yourself. Do you agree with the statement? Women’s safety is more important than men’s feelings. And for the love of God why?
Make your arguments or be a coward.
I can’t believe I even have to explain this.
There is no way to argue against a statement like “Women’s safety is more important than men’s feelings” because it’s such a loaded and ambiguous statement. It’s just as loaded and misused as the statement “it’s wrong to murder children” when used by proponents of banning abortion and limiting women’s reproductive rights. You can’t argue that it’s okay to “murder children” because it’s not okay to do that, but they’re intentionally misusing the statement to their own benefit for the emotional impact.
There’s probably some name for this logical fallacy, but I don’t know what it is. But the important thing is that you’ve fallen victim to it. “Men’s feelings” and “women’s safety” don’t negate each other, and they don’t have to compete; not unless you challenge somebody to argue against the statement “Women’s safety is more important than men’s feelings” exactly as you’ve done here. You’re manufacturing conflict from out of nowhere, and it’s an annoying distraction from real-world issues.
Why don’t you target your statement a little better? Why don’t you hold the actions of rapists and abusers against rapists and abusers, instead of innocent men who’ve done nothing but try to live their lives and respect the people around them?
Get off your fucking high-horse and rejoin reality with me where we have mutual respect for each other, whether you’re a man or a woman.
There is no way to argue against a statement like “Women’s safety is more important than men’s feelings”
Yes there is. Show how the statement causes harm. If it is too ambiguous, make it concrete by interpreting it.
“Men’s feelings” and “women’s safety” don’t negate each other,
For the most part you are right (most feelings are not problematic), but there are situations where Men’s feelings do affect women’s safety.
For example. If a Man feels like he deserves sex even if a woman is not interested in having that sex. Another example is if the average man feels like they rightfully control or are better than women. Then that makes that society less safe for women.
But yeah, if a man feel sad because his favorite driver loss the race, that doesn’t harm women. To me, these kinds of feelings were never the issue.
Why don’t you hold the actions of rapists and abusers against rapists and abusers, instead of innocent men who’ve done nothing but try to live their lives and respect the people around them?
I am confused about you got here. Is this post calling you a rapist? I have yet to judge you on anything. I am just trying to understand why this post is getting you so upset. If it turns out this post is upsetting to you because you are a rapist that thinks that women shouldn’t have safety, then your reactions would make sense to me. As of now, I am still confused.
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Im a little shocked at the general sentiment in this thread, I’m not a woman but most of my friends are afab and just hearing stories about how men will act normal until they’re in an isolated situation like the scenario describes makes it a no-brainer why so many people pick bear
There are some issues & experiences that women go through that men will just simply never “get”, and that’s fine. But invalidating the answers & experiences from women is why I believe there are no longer many women participating in conversations on Lemmy anymore.
I mean… looking at all this, why would they want to?
Is it controversial to say that I’d rather converse with a bear? Or do you suppose folks get upset about it?
Maybe, just maybe, folks who do not understand it should listen to what women have to say about it? But many are thinking about it completely removed from the contextual experiences of women. It’s… awful.
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I realized this a long time ago when I made a simple complaint that I thought women’s issues were downplayed a lot here, and in response I was downvoted, ridiculed, people demanded sources for my claims then claimed my sources were invalid for whatever reason they could pull out of their ass, and one person even, and trigger warning on this, told me I should die giving birth to a rapists baby.
I’ve even picked up a downvote stalker during the course of this whole bear thing. Same time every day somebody goes through and downvotes every single new thing on my profile.So yeah, Lemmy’s never been a great place for women. I only continue to participate because I’m disabled and have so few connections to the outside world that I’ll take anything now.
And bears will most likely leave you alone if you leave them alone.
- Suicidal person never eaten alive by a bear.
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You read the comment but were not listening. Try again. Disapointing.
Stop antagonizing all men. There is a low probability that random men will sa you, there is very high probability that bear will eat you alive while you experience both pain and violence role-playing a KFC meal
It is fucking atrocious that you attacked a person sharing their experiences with “stop antagonizing all men.”
Right there she was expressing how every time she speaks up she gets immediately shut down, and there you were to do it again. This is me calling you out for it. Shame.
It’s this sexist statement still being made? Cool, cool, cool… I mean it’s not actually, but here we are with this crap still being said.
Plus like a lot of semi recent sexist analogies it’s a rephrasing of an older racist one with the same logic but proponents are like “that’s different for reasons”, ‘rather a black man or a dangerous animal’ is pretty common in racist circles, just like the ‘you have a bowl of M&Ms, 1/10 are poison. That’s what it’s like to deal with men’ analogy from a few years back grew from the ‘you have a package of Skittles. 1/10 are poison. That’s what it’s like to deal with Muslims’ analogy
Stop noticing things.
So there mere presence of a man implies a lack of safety? It may be your feelings but it is also major misandry.
Lived experience shapes our reality. It’s an absurdist analogy that paints the picture of women feeling unsafe around men they don’t know due to their lived experience. It’s not misandry, it’s caution, anxiety, fear, and uncertainty. The outrage at such meme is pretty much indicative of the issue at hand. Men tend not to feel unsafe around women they don’t know whereas the flipped scenario is the opposite. That says something about society, not women.
I don’t think it’s lived experience for many. Much of it is fear impressed by others. And I’ve certainly felt fear at being alone with the wrong woman, or a child. One false accusation and my life is over. I actively avoid being alone with women and children. But that doesn’t mean I’m picking bears over people.
Good lord, dude. When I was talking about fear, I meant fear for one’s life or well-being. I also said “man they don’t know,” not “wrong.” The people you should be directing your anger towards are those who have created an environment within society where women don’t feel safe, which is other men who think they’re entitled to women’s bodies, who get angry when rejected instead of moving on, who commit acts of violence against women, and any other disgusting act you can think of. Your emotions are misdirected.
Who says I can only be angry at one group? I am angry with the men in that group, but also the people that would place me in that group merely because I also possess a penis.
No one is talking about your penis.
Not sure what else this meme is doing other than actively creating a bigger divide between the genders…
“everything is going according to plan”
Maybe a divide for you, my SO says she’d pick the bear if it wasn’t me. And I don’t blame her.
Instead of arguing the merits of this debate, maybe its worth analyzing your own merits. Men (individually but amongst their peers) should be ashamed that women typically seem to want to pick a bear over themselves, instead of falling further into the rut that pushes everyone - not just women - away from their social circles and friend.
Someone tells you they’d rather be getting mauled by a bear? Take the hint. The divide exists within your head, make friends, be kind, and you’ll find happiness
Edited for individuals to contextualize on their peers instead of generically
Edit edit, I mean go ahead, be reactionary
Excuse me?!
The fuck should I be ashamed for?
Why am I responsible for the actions of other men?
Go have your fucking guilt trip if you want to but don’t include me.
Reading comprehension, my apologies for the poor original phrasing, but yes you should be ashamed if you dont get the point.
Assume I didn’t get the point: what was your point when you said ‘men should be ashamed that women pick the bear?’
Im proud my SO would rather pick me, and I can likely speak on her behalf that she would choose the bear over you, whoever you are, and no offense intended.
Thats the person you should be to who you choose, as soon as you’re trying to convince a woman that you’re a better pick, you’re fighting a loosing battle.
Im really perplexed how this is complicated
I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything.
Explain exactly what you meant when you said ‘men should be ashamed that women pick the bear.’
Why should I be ashamed.
Explain.
Talk to your mother more, it’ll go a long way.
