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I mean it’s actually an interesting point though?
Men should be loved and cared for in a relationship too, not treated like shit by default.
I hope you aren’t treated like shit by default.
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Got some links to share?
That depends on what you mean by “treated”. Men are not as well trusted not to be violent, and taken less seriously when the victims of sexual crimes. Women are paid less well and get more online abuse. That’s just a few examples for each side, obviously we could go on and on. Maybe we all want better treatment.
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Males being raped is a very underreported and tragic occurrence. You can’t compare apples and oranges.
(I have friends who were raped and never reported or did anything about it, out of stigma, shame, or not expecting anything [justice] to come of reporting it)
I have female friends who never reported or did anything about it, out of stigma (what were you wearing? Were you asking for it? Are you faking?), shame (why was he able to get you alone?) Or not expecting justice to come of reporting it (you’ll ruin his life, it was a mistake, I’m sure you deserved it, we don’t have enough evidence.)
That pendulum swings both ways.
Meanwhile men don’t have access to support groups, are not supported by anyone when they admit it, get straight up ridiculed for this ever happenning by both everyday people and justice system…
It happens to both genders. But we managed to build fundamental lattice of support for one of them (fundamental as in there’s still so much to do), while failing to even recognize the other one faces this problem too. We do not have to compromise on helping one side to help the other - that’s straight up not an option. But we should help, and recognize the need of help, for both.
Fucking thank you. Men’s libbers (and there’s a loooooot of them on lemmy, as you can see in your downvotes) like to trot out the “men don’t report because of stigma!” line, but it’s like, my guy, women do too?? For every woman brave enough to report, there’s anywhere from 5-10 that don’t report at all due to fear/stigma.
Of course rape happens to men (mostly by other men) too. But, couple things:
- it’s not a competition or dick measuring contest. Rape is bad, m’kay? Regardless of gender.
- it’s disingenuous to say that it happens to men just as much, or more. It feels icky, like they’re shoving themselves in a victimhood narrative where they don’t belong.
I have to ask, what do you hope to accomplish with this line of discussion?
So far we have:
- Men have it worse? What about RAPE!?
- Ok maybe men get raped but it’s by other men (…and therefore what?)
- Anyone who downvotes is a men’s libber
- Ok rape is bad full stop regardless of gender but
- Saying men get raped more (who said this btw?) means they are trying to be victims when they don’t belong as victims.
Let me tell you, as a man who struggles with mental health, there are a shit load of “men’s help” content creators that bait the hook with showing empathy for men’s issue and then sprinkle just enough mysogonisric bullshit in there to get people to start sliding down that slippery slope.
Talk like this is exactly what makes people think “you know what, maybe this misogynistic asshole had a point, I tried to say that maybe men shouldn’t be mistreated then got told that because men rape people, we don’t matter.”
I know that’s not your point or what you wanted to say, but just read back what your said and try to imagine you’re reading it as someone struggling with mental health. Maybe even try reversing the genders and see if you’re still ok with what you said.
Personally I think women in general have a harder time, but why does that matter here? There are plenty of issues unique to or especially bad for men, women, nb folks and we should be discussing issues with empathy for both sides and not falling down these extremist, side picking rabbit holes trying to play ‘gotcha’. That just hurts everyone.
In terms of downvotes, I’d note that the person actually asking for the evidence that men are treated worse overall is (imo rightfully) upvoted at this time. So I’d challenge your assumption that everyone who downvoted you is a certain type of person.
I’m not by my partner. Never have been, that’s why I love her, she’s always been kind.
But she also carries some distrust and resentment towards mean-justifiably given trauma-that is sometimes directed at me, inadvertently I think. Which sucks and doesn’t make me feel great, but it also makes sense from her perspective and she’s not got an issue with me
Sounds like she needs kindness. I have someone in my life like that. They’re working on it but it’s a long hard road.
She does, as does everyone. So it’s walking a balance of respecting her and her trauma and being supportive, while also standing up for myself when needed
Good. Sounds like you’re doing your best by her.
What if we are shit, by default?
Speak for yourself
That’s what I thought the comments would be about but apparently he should just get called creepy instead.
I guess you’re a man?
So am I.
Have you been treated like shit in your relationships? I’m sorry to hear that.
I have been treated by like shit by some women in relationships as well. Then I got out of those relationships.The moral of the story is: Don’t hang around in relationships where you’re treated like shit.
There’s other possible morals here too, but let’s keep with this one. I think it says it all.
I know you peeps probably didn’t mean it this way, but men fall victim to the same psychological traps women do. It’s not that easy to just leave a bad relationship, especially if you don’t have the expectations and tools required to identify what’s not normal
You’re absolutely right, of course.
We should aspire to ensure everyone is equipped in that respect before they leave home!
What I want to say is: Yeah, it can be as difficult for men to leave a bad relationship as it can be for women. That isn’t a reason to treat men any different from women.
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Thread closed? Why? Do you not want to defend such a statement?
Her comment jump to the conclusion that men should be tasered for no particular reason. Looking at suicide ratings it obvious men are subject to a lot of mental stress and pressure from society.
Women should be protected and cared for. Men should be tasered.
Come here so I can taze you
That’s just estim on hard mode
Yes pls
All people should be taught how to treat others regardless of their gender.
Exactly. Everybody should be taught to leave me the fuck alone.
More than that, people need to learn to read men. “Yeah I’m fine, don’t worry” is often a very quiet cry for help from a gender which is traditionally taught to show only strength and permanence and to never show outward signs of “weakness”.
It’s nothing short of traumatic, the upbringing where you don’t get to cry.
TL:DR Fuck the patriarchyI’ve given my kids tasers and shown them your comment. That should do it /s
Yes! Thank you. Not that people don’t have certain issues that may be somewhat gender specific but respect in general is first and foremost when it comes to how to treat others.
Violent and stupid response. Not even funny.
Something like 1/3 of women are victims of rape. This is the world women are forced to endure and try to survive in. That’s the point
Idk, Johnny Bravo probably would agree with you
“A nonzero amount of women have a tendency to demand respect and support from their partner but not give any in return, and some women actually need to be taught that relationships are a two way street, so make sure your daughters know that because not all of them will” – person who’s been burned a lot
“Anyone who says that is probably a predator” – OP for some god damn reason
As others have pointed out, the guy is likely coming from a misogynistic viewpoint.
That’s not a guarantee – assuming intent rarely pays – and it’s certainly not an excuse for you to threaten everyone else in this comment section who acknowledges possible misogyny but points out that the general sentiment is valid with a taser too.
I mean it is weird that society expects men to treat women a certain, positive way (which I’m on board with) while basically saying woman can treat men however they want tbh. Men can be victims too but nobody gives a fuck. This response is absolute garbage.
Bottom line: men and woman need to treat each other with respect and dignity.
Edit: nice kool aid man meme bro. Stay mad.
The entire way our society is structured is telling women how to treat men. For too long it told men they can treat women however they want which is why boys need to be taught while girls can learn it from literally everywhere around them. If anything girls should be taught to not let men treat them however they want.
For too long it told men they can treat women however they want
This is demonstrably false, as we have certain narratives that are literally millennia old (latin literature) about courtship, romantic gestures, protection and all the other stuff usually associated with how men should treat women. Usually this is some form of protection/care for a lower/weaker being, but it is absolutely a way society has been telling men how to tell women for centuries.
Bingo.
The point of the meme is that the guy is butthurt that from his perspective, no one has taught women how to treat men, yet he fails to realize we live in a society where the messaging for women is everywhere.
Girls and women most definitely need to be taught not to tolerate shitty behavior which is much more prevalent to them because men in our male-orientated society aren’t taught how to treat people. go out there. Earn. Be a good provider. Your value is only as much as what you produce. You need to have big shiny things to showcase your value. whispers society Don’t worry about your emotional development, that’s not important. A woman will straighten that out for you later
The guy above called me angry. I’m not really. Just disappointed that men are just finally starting to clue in that a lot of the media out and society’s views on men do not have male best interests at heart.
We can do better. I’m angry that we aren’t, and that the change is so painfully slow.
I’m an angry optimist.
Which society are you describing here? I’d like to move there
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As a father to two girls: When and if it comes to them dating boys (or girls for that matter), yes I’m going to give them some pointers. Like:
Ask them what they want! Everyone’s different.
Be nice to them and expect them to be nice to you.
Talk to them and expect them to talk to you (at least a little bit; everyone’s different).
If you love them, let them know you do.(And if they don’t reciprocate, you can always come back home and regroup.)
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Is the top guy somebody we should know or is he just creepy because of what he said? I do think it’s important to know how to deal with the opposite sex regardless of gender, personally, I would never just throw a child into the world to figure it out, and teaching wariness is just a part of that.
Taken out of twitter context, his message is actually completely valid imo. Everyone should learn how to treat everyone with respect.
Instead we chuckle at a message of violence and wonder why people get radicalized.
We don’t, but that sounds like a lot of instances yeah. Especially Hexbear and other state run instances who are trying to intentionally radicalize the naive.
The phrases “Men should learn how to treat women” and “Women should know how to treat men” are both vastly different than “Everyone should learn how to treat everyone with respect.”
I mean its 50% of the latter. Just gotta add “women how to treat women” and “men how to treat men” and then all the boring binary labels are covered. But yeah in this context its meant in a weird sexist and probably very unequal way.
He’s a verified twitter user. I think that says enough.
Unironically can’t believe people are paying to tell on themselves these days
Most parents/adults don’t know how to treat the opposite sex either though.
I wager some experience is still better than none.
A lot of changes is society have come up in the last couple of generations. Changes equality, sexual freedoms, modern parenting, men’s roles at home, women’s role at work, etc. Many of my parent’s generation really do not know the first things about changing roles and expectations of the sexes and what people of the current generation want. Most people I know of that generation are (mildly to extremely) socially conservative. I get along great with my parents and I happily welcome them to live with me for 5 months of every year… But I would never have the teach anyone in my generation the lessons from their generation (I do speak to them about these things out of interest, but more to talk about how different the culture is between or generations now).
Alright, tell your kids it’s fine to fuck around with their bodies and people’s feelings and find out, then.
Being able to build trust and find lifelong companionship is a skill surely lacking in youth, but arrogance is clearly not.
Ok
I feel like society kind of does that for them? Not 100%, but most women’s magazine have a “how to please your man” section. Grooming for women is usually around looking young and pretty and feminine to men, hiding things or pushing/squeezing things for the best shape. While men’s story tend to be about self discovery, women’s media (until recently) was not telling women same message. Media for awhile was heavily focused on women being content as home makers. You gotta learn how to look to get a man after all and then have to do the house making to keep them. Keep yourself young and pretty so he doesn’t get a new model! You don’t like giving head? Or having men cum on your face? Oh, sorry, 90% of sexual media is geared towards men and their desires, and if you wanna keep him, you need to perform. Hell, some men don’t even think women can get pleasure from sex. Advertisements were geared towards being a “Good wife,” not a happy woman (unless you’re chuffed at being a wife). We have recent comics/memes about this. We laugh at them (“I was a scientist” VS “I raised 5 (all male) scientists”), but that’s in certain circles, these were not created to be jokes. There’s not as much as the reverse baked into society. Men didn’t have to learn how to treat a woman for, like, the bulk of our history. I think there’s a lot of focus on men attracting women (and extreme pressure on them to be the main providers), but not necessarily how to treat them. Women tend to do that with sons because, until fairly recently, no one gave a shit if you beat your family every night, rape within marriage was perfectly legal. Women couldn’t get a bank account without a man’s permission. In some countries women can’t leave the house without a man period. Society was teaching men that women were property, and it was usually only the mom in the man’s life that could say, “Hey kiddo, when you get a wife please don’t beat her.” if she wasn’t the kind of woman to say you should beat her.
This is not to say men don’t also suffer. Toxic masculinity has made a place where men have power, but lack the freedom to be vulnerable. Their mental health isn’t taken seriously because “men don’t cry.” Men don’t get “hurt,” men don’t get sad, lonely unless you’re “weak.” Don’t cry, because you’ll be told to “get a tampon.” Women who drank the kool-aid uphold this as well. Even toxic spaces that some men make for themselves (manosphere) are incredibly harmful to the men they say they’re there to uplift. All they focus on is how to get women, how to “catch one” with the bait usually a man’s wealth, or apperence. They don’t talk about how to find a loving partner, how men can look out for abuse, how men can protect themselves. Those men say women have until 25, they’re the gate keepers of “sex.” They make it seem like men and women are diametrically opposed
foes. I think there’s a huge lack in actual helpful male focused media. Like, I say the manosphere is awful, but I don’t readily know another space that could help men with their issues in less toxic ways. How many men have heard “just be yourself” or “work out” to solve their problems? When that’s all you hear, someone telling you something is better than nothing.TL;DR: I think men have the inverse problem. Women tend to have to be their own advocate for their treatment, but get the freedom to be cared for, heard, and have their mental health taken seriously. Men have the “power,” but not the freedom of expression, but a lot of that is the result of a society they created. It’s not so much “fathers need to teach their daughters how to treat men” (because I don’t think men are taught to even let women know that they have feelings, let alone telling their daughters), it’s that we need to allow men to be vulnerable and have people be supportive of them. We all teased the men for their alpha boot camps. Like women’s retreats aren’t weird either? I specifically remember a video of a man going “I am a man” while pushing some barrier and then crying in the man’s arms. He was ridiculed (and I was laughing too, I’m not innocent). Why? Why was that funny. He didn’t fall or do something dumb. He went to a program to find himself in some way, broke through a little, and was punished for it. Walz’s son is currently being hsrrased for crying by both men and women. What man wants to “feel” in that environment?
Your reply is really well thought out, and the crux of why I posted this meme in the first place (other than that I am a shitlord).
There are A. LOT. of shitty men out there. Tons. I hold a lot of disdain for my own sex, because the majority of them are caught up in the toxic masculinity paradigm and don’t even know it, or worse, refuse to acknowledge that it is indeed toxic. Even the male-orientated support communities often twist into some Jordan Petersen-esque Dutch oven. We have a lot of figuring out to do if we want to be healthy humans, and pave the way for future men to be healthy too. We need to be vulnerable with other men, and actually talk about thing bothering us. We need to build friendships that are built on more than just one shared hobby. The list goes on and on, and we have our work cut out for us
I agree with you, in that women don’t need to know how to treat men, because, like you say, it’s rammed down their fucking throats every time they turn around. What women need it to see the value in themselves, and stand up for it. Hit the bricks if he’s a twatwaffle. Men should do the same.
Finally, should you find yourself in a relationship, you need to take a hard look at your baseline assumptions. For instance, your partner is not there to make your life better, but rather compliment the already good life you supposedly have going on. They aren’t responsible for your emotional wellbeing. A good partner will certainly care about this and want to foster this, but it is not into them for you to be happy in the relationship.
The reply speaks more loudly than the original comment.
This comment section is a shitshow and OP admits to being a troll. Locking this thread.
Unless I’m supposed to know the first guy for something, this is either nonsensical or fucking stupid in some way i haven’t thought of yet.
Someone call an ambulance… BUT NOT FOR ME!
Better prep the burn ward!
