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They are not the baddies because of a Nazi salute. They are baddies because of shitload of other things. Which I’m starting to think the Nazi solute is a distraction from. I see so many posts about the salute and the “Gulf of America” and about assigned-at-conception gendering, and almost nothing about the executive orders that actually have implications.
Finally, someone who gets it. I’ve been documenting all of this outrage on Lemmy over the last week and I’m gonna blog about how much real things we missed in the meantime.
Gish Gallop.
The opposition can’t get anything done if you produce an unending stream of nonsense for them to counter.
I get where you’re coming from, but if someone can get away with doing things associated with a group that’s shorthand in the West™ for the worst people in the world, I do think that’s a problem too.
Inventing a time machine that lets you go back and kill hitler before he gets in power is a very common power fantasy.
The Great Man Theory take is that Hitler was saying and doing a kind of politics unique to his historical moment. He didn’t stumble into the right beer hall at the right moment and echo the sentiments of tens of thousands of his disgruntled military peers but transformed the popular views of a nation. His rhetoric was brilliantly gripping, rather than just heavily circulated. His political maneuverings were expert rather than just stubbornly persistent. His military strategies were the product of genius rather than meth and recklessness.
Go back in time and kill Hitler and you don’t fix the post-war disparity between the WW1 Axis and Ally powers. You don’t discourage re-militarization in a country overrun by US military contractors that saw massive profits in rearming the German state. You certainly don’t mitigate the impacts of the post-1917 wave after wave of Red Scares or keep Henry Ford from circulating “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” in every Ford dealership on either side of the Atlantic.
At best, you spare Charlie Chaplain the shame of shaving off his tiny mustache. But there’s a strong reason to believe the post-Depression fascist wave that crested into WW2 was over-determined.
You wouldn’t stop WWII, but you would drastically change its nature.
Get rid of Hitler and you just end up with President Himmler instead. Virtually nothing else changes.
Time travel guy failed by a couple of centimeters.
Hey, nobody’s ever heard of Hans Sprechter in this timeline and that’s a win
Yet today when Americans have 2A and 11 guns per person instead of killing tyrants they’ll side with them out of convenience and self preservation. The apathetic centrist majority who think political illiteracy is the reasonable and sensible position are the biggest asset to fascism.
That’s the thing about the 2A-people, no matter how much you fantasize about taking on the government guerilla-style… with the two party system as it is, at least half of the people with guns will join the opposing side…
Unless, of course, you turn it into a matter of partisan identity and the other side willingly plays along, meaning it’s more like 60/30 in your favor.
I’m starting to think that doing enough Ketamine to take down a racehorse just before giving a speech to the entire world’s media, was probably not a good idea…
That had nothing to do with ketamine, Musk is just a nazi.
Being a Nazi doesn’t help either.
The fact this is a debatable thing is the shame of humanity.
You know what’s even worst? ADL.
Journalists: It appeared to be a South African karate chop of some kind
If you went to college and knew any media majors you’d know exactly why media is failing us. Some journalists are the exception, obviously, but not the ones to whom you refer.
I didn’t know any media majors so maybe you could enlighten us.
It was the easiest degree to complete, so the majors were not the sharpest.
I figure ProPublica and The Lancet doesn’t feel the need to write about a Nazi salute we could all see for our own eyes, no investigative journalism necessary.
Punches In Afrikaans
It’s not a full on Nazi salute as the words „Heil“, „Heil Hitler“, or „Sieg Heil“ aren’t used. However, it is a full on salute in its tradition. A right wing oligarch holding a victory speech espousing conservative revolution and a glorious future are in the vein of the fascism of old.
Trumpism doesn’t need to even express itself as fully fascist. The popular support, the support of the tycoons of industry, institutional acquiescence, lack of organized resistance, means he doesn’t need to go full authoritarian.
The ideological flexibility of Trumpism is enormous. Allegiance to Trump and MAGA is pretty much it. The rest of the ideology is dynamically formed by sycophants looking for Trump‘s favor. The post ironic attitude means immunity to value based criticism.
Elon Musk is a mix of minister for propaganda and court jester at the same time.
It’s not a full on Nazi salute as the words „Heil“, „Heil Hitler“, or „Sieg Heil“ aren’t used.
Oh, give me a break. There’s no vocal component to the salute. It’s a salute. You don’t get to say “No, it only counts if I say the words while I’m wearing the uniform, and I have to be goose-stepping while I’m doing it, too”.
I know I won’t change your mind by disagreeing with you regarding the nazi salute. But I want to say that I am very grossed out by all the apologists defending him, even just a little bit.
Just remember the quote, for evil men to succeed, good men just have to do nothing
The apathetic centrist majority who think political illiteracy is the smart and sensible position are the biggest asset to fascism.
Its real easy to be a centrist when it doesn’t directly effect you.
Or when you don’t realize that it already is directly affecting you because “They pay me well enough to keep me in a comfy box, I don’t have time to do anything or read or risk losing my job” while the ones they love are picked off one by one. Then when they come out the other side they go “How did all this happen? It was equally the fault of the radicals on both sides.” Thus the unenlightened centrist cycle will continue.
He claimed it was a “my heart goes out to you” sentiment.
But the “my heart goes out to you” gesture is palm-up…
Or palm down with one or two fingers extended
My heart goes out to you is the fig leaf Elon used for plausible deniability. He probably thinks he was terribly clever. Which, as it turns out, he was. Elon will get away with this and pushed the envelope of what’s possible. Others will imitate him.
This has all the elements for a softer fascist salute, where the words aren’t „Sieg Heil!“ or „Duce!“, but simply „my heart!“. A salute with the hand moving from heart to extension while saying firmly „my heart!“ works well to be visually striking.
But fElon doesn’t have a heart
He does have a heart, don’t make that mistake. That’s one of the key areas of the body to aim at, see Figure 1: Brian Thompson.
Generally you don’t yeet your heart out with such force either
Can someone, who believes this is a Nazi salute, explain to me what his motivation would be? I see what I see but I can’t see it as a nazi thing unless he was intentionally sabotaging or trolling but it doesn’t make sense contextually, unless I need to watch the whole damn thing to get it.
The whole damn thing is like a 4 minute speech. Might be quicker to just watch the whole damn thing here: https://youtu.be/cjr0tAafxxE
My point is that there isn’t enough context or there is nothing in context that can explain it. Thanks for posting though for anyone who needs to see that.
The purpose of doing a Nazi salute so publicly, in the context of “saving civilization,” does the purpose of a dog whistle but with the subtlety of an air horn. It’s to send out acknowledgment to Nazis, a gesture of solidarity, that he’s on their side and wants their support/approval. You would think this would be sabotaging the system if Naziism was in fact against their ideals and was bad optics. Nowadays the only excuse they need to be a Nazi is to “trigger the libs” so you’d be safe to say that nothing will come of this, people will shake their heads and wag their fingers but will still do business with him because money. So he’s cashing in, he knows probably better than anyone that the Nazis have, in fact, successfully taken over the American government. Well done, Americans.
I think this is Elon trolling and pushing the boundaries of what can be done. It‘s being edgy and provocative, while obfuscating his true intentions.
Elon used a fascist salute twice in public on stage to thunderous applause. Now he gets the support of the actual fascist right. However all he mainstream republicans in the audience who cheered now have to defend him as well. This will have no consequences for Elon. It was pure demonstration of his power to do whatever he pleases, both to his side and to the opposition. This also gives Elon attention and amuses him.
Elon might call this salute the heart (of America) salute and repeat it in the future. Any other rightwinger who loves trolling the libs now has a role model. Salute from the heart, such a harmless gesture, and it gets the normies all upset. Do it as a laugh first and then for real over time.
Always suspected Captain Obvious had a scholar background.
That’s Dr. Obvious to you!
Logical fallacy: Argument from authority.
There’s a difference between an authority figure and someone with expertise in a subject. This individual isn’t using a position of power to supplement his argument, he is just detailing his experience.
People really need to stop treating logical fallacy like they’re harry potter spells.
also the fallacy fallacy would fit perfectly here. Even if the fallacy was occurring that doesn’t mean the argument is wrong.
Yep, you can illogically come to a conclusion and still be right. That’s basically how intuitive thought is defined.
There’s a difference between an authority figure and someone with expertise in a subject.
By “authority” it means “authority on the subject”. A well known and respected physicist would be an authority on the subject or in the field of physics. The issue necessarily isn’t the lack of expertise but that the expertise shouldn’t be trusted blindly but rather the findings or argument should be verified.
Not that trusting the authorities on the subject is a bad idea especially when you are yourself not an expert. It’s more of a thing when trying to study something, figuring out proof of stuff and so on when you need to be aware of the potential issues.
argument from authority, also known as an appeal to authority, is a reasoning technique that uses a person’s authority to support an argument, rather than their ideas. It can be a valid argument when the authority is an expert on the topic and their opinion is likely true. However, it can also be a logical fallacy if the authority is not qualified or the argument is unclear.
I’m not sure if you’re agreeing with me or disagreeing.
It can be a valid argument when the authority is an expert on the topic and their opinion is likely true.
I believe you are conflating authority with expertise. Authority means you have a position of influence over a body of people or knowledge. It doesn’t mean that you are automatically an expert or have real knowledge of the subject.
For something to be a logical fallacy it has to be irrational. Having someone quote their expertise in a subject doesn’t mean they are appealing to authority, they’re just aiding the body of evidence that supports their theory.
I think you are thinking about claims in the terms of the scientific process, which deals with physical sciences. When you should be interpreting this as a metaphysical debate or even a legal process, where the subject is based on interpretations stemming from social constructs.
Logical fallacies can be present in the physical sciences, but the scientific process is meant to minimize this. The problem with treating metaphysical things like interpreting political beliefs with the rigor of the scientific process is that it invalidates nuance and leads to things like Verificationism. Which is a theory of logical positivism that rejects all metaphysical beliefs including things like ethics.
I don’t know if you’ve read the Wikipedia article but their specific example is of someone who had authority in the field because of their expertise. It’s the expertise that gave them authority.
One example of the use of the appeal to authority in science dates to 1923,[31] when leading American zoologist Theophilus Painter declared, based on poor data and conflicting observations he had made,[32][33] that humans had 24 pairs of chromosomes. From the 1920s until 1956,[34] scientists propagated this “fact” based on Painter’s authority,[35][36][33] despite subsequent counts totaling the correct number of 23.[32][37] Even textbooks[32] with photos showing 23 pairs incorrectly declared the number to be 24[37] based on the authority of the then-consensus of 24 pairs.[38]
Authoritative person said it was so, people deferred to his expertise over findings arguing differently because they trusted his expertise on the subject.
For something to be a logical fallacy it has to be irrational. Having someone quote their expertise in a subject doesn’t mean they are appealing to authority, they’re just aiding the body of evidence that supports their theory.
It’s a fallacy when you use their expertise as the proof of something. Something is not true in the argumentative sense because someone is an expert, but of course in the real world if someone is an expert they know their shit better than most.
Authoritative person said it was so, people deferred to his expertise over findings arguing differently because they trusted his expertise on the subject.
Again, you are talking about physical sciences where the rigor of claims must first pass the scientific method. Personal testimony has no grounds within physical sciences, so the claim is irrational.
In physical sciences expert testimony does not add to the body of evidence, because testimony does not affect the observation of a physical phenomenon.
However, in metaphysical processes testimony is considered evidence, as it can shape the way people perceive the argument. In this case evidence isn’t absolute proof a physical phenomenon, it’s a bit of information that supports your assertion.
We are talking about a metaphysical problem where things like personal testimony are considered a rational argument.
Is it irrational for a court of law to call upon an expert witness? Or should all personal testimony be labeled as an irrational logical fallacy?
It’s a fallacy when you use their expertise as the proof of something. Something is not true in the argumentative sense because someone is an expert, but of course in the real world if someone is an expert they know their shit better than most.
No, it really isn’t. A fallacy is defined by a failure of rationality or reasoning. At what point is an expert on Nazis interpreting something as a Nazi salute a failure of reasoning?
Utilizing your interpretation, how would someone define a Nazi salute? Is there a scientific formula to determine if someone is a Nazi? Or would you have to study Nazis and their beliefs and use that information to make an educated determination?
In this case I would say you’d have to have an expert’s opinion. So stating you are an expert and giving your opinion is a perfectly logical and rational argument.
Look who learned the world fallacy today. Still you’re using it wrong
/s
It’s also the Roman salute, which predates nazis and fascists.
And you gotta admit, it’s a powerful gesture.
Also, he runs a company that makes spaceships. Which is pretty awsome.
Think about that while you work your shitty 9-to-5
This “Roman salute” is also a ridiculous claim. Why would musk to a Roman salute? How does Rome fit into anything?
Then you just devolve into the common “well ur jealous because he’s rich” thing that people go for whenever an oligarch is criticized.
And the swastika was a Hindu symbol, blah blah blah.
Hanging dictators upside down is also a very powerful gesture.
He doesn’t run shit anymore, assuming that he’s ever run something more than his mouth.
He’s just like one of those opportunistic diseases that attack a body with a compromised immune systems.
And while I work my shitty job I’ll think about how cool it is that I’m not a Nazi *shrugs
PS: since he’s Trump’s propaganda arm, I think that he won’t hang by his feet, he’ll just bite into a cyanide pill to avoid prosecution.
Thanks you, we’ve now got another data point which shows that it only takes 27 hours for someone to get brainwashed
It’s the lamest version of whatever you want to call it. he’s not projecting power, he looks like a 16 year old edgelord in a fedora and trenchcoat that had practiced this in the mirror for weeks and then got overly excited and blew his load when he had the opportunity to be edgy in public. He’s a fascist and used a salute adopted by fascists in Italy and then by fascists in Germany in the early 20th century. The man is a fascist, no matter how you or any of your chud friends try to spin it.
And you gotta admit, it’s a powerful gesture.
?
Homelander jerking off on top of a skyscraper.
I searched that exact tweet up and it was posted by three different accounts with the exact same wording.
Me thinks this is no real.
OP you got a source? Because if this guy is who he claims he is then all of his work is being called into question and I would be very curious to see what other incorrect takes he’s got.
now now, this is no place for fact checking
We unite against common enemy here, right after two minutes hate
Do you really expect leftists to NOT spend all their effort dunking on other leftists? That’s why there is no more Left left, because the honest truth is most people are okay with fascism out of convenience and self preservation, that is, till fascists come knocking on their door. And even then, they’ll be more than happy to be peacefully escorted into the van. If i’m wrong there would be an armed leftists movement a la Black Panthers but with more support, but we don’t see that do we? Leftist ego’s competing at who’s theory is better doesn’t solve anything.
Do you really expect leftists to NOT spend all their effort dunking on other leftists?
They have to dunk on somebody. The easiest ones to dunk on are fascists. But who really is the fascist? I’ll give you a cheat code here: Fascist is everyone you call fascist.
I call the people who hold accounts in the £36 TRILLION in offshore tax havens and all those who are okay with it “fascists.”
Well then, you might have been debating a fascist this entire time. Well played!
By my metrics the majority of people are fascists, and it’s a terrifying world to live in. When I think about that £36 trillion I’m reminded of those old legends about things like a “Well of Souls” and ugly beasts hoarding and guarding food from the villages. It’s almost like these types of people have cautionary tales about them for a reason, and that we’ve been here before. Humans have always had one common monster - inhumans. Money is the religious monarchy of our day, we wonder how people could believe in witches yet people think food, science, and trade comes from money. “How can the world work without
GodMoney?” is the dogma of our times.
