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The number of people who still think nuclear is bad and solar / wind will make up for it is really depressing. We could have had an unrivaled nuclear power infrastructure but those NIMBY assholes stopped it 50 years ago and now we rely on extending existing plants past their lifetimes while running in fucking circles about how to save the planet. Has anyone who wants to “go green” without nuclear ever looked at the power output of these things?? It’s not even the same league! AaagggghHhHhhhhhhhh
The problems with nuclear power aren’t meltdowns, but the facts that it often takes decades just to construct a new plant, it creates an enormous carbon footprint before you get it running, it has an enormously resource-intensive fuel production process, it contributes to nuclear proliferation, it creates indefinitely harmful waste, and even if we get past all of that and do expand it, that’s just going to deplete remaining fuel sources faster, of which we only have so many decades left.
It’s not a good long term solution. I agree we should keep working plants running, but we can’t do that forever, and we still need renewable alternatives - wind, hydro and solar.
And it wasn’t some nebulous group of NIMBYs that worked against nuclear power, it was the fossil fuel lobby. I don’t know why people keep jumping to cultural explanations for what is clearly a structural issue. The problem isn’t some public perception issue, but political will, and that tends to be bought by the fossil fuel lobby.
Also there is good science on why we actually can switch to entirely renewables: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/23/no-miracles-needed-prof-mark-jacobson-on-how-wind-sun-and-water-can-power-the-world
While those are all fair points, it’s also important to note that Gen IV reactor technology has projected generation efficiencies of very roughly 100-300x the energy yield from an identical mass of fissile material when compared to Gen II and Gen III reactors. I dare say that would change the efficiency equation rather significantly if those numbers pan out in the implementation stage.
I don’t think nuclear power was killed by NIMBYs, at least not entirely. In the 1970s and 80s the financial world started taking a much more short-term view. Nuclear power plants have such a huge up-front cost that you aren’t going to see returns for decades. When the market wants numbers to go up every quarter they’re not going to finance something that won’t make a profit for 20 years.
That’s why we have governments though, for the long time low return infrastructure, like power grids.
Somehow we are willing to spend billions yearly on new roads but can’t be assed to build a new nuke plant once a decade to grow power production.
If only it were as exciting as the shitty startups that sell for millions a few years after being founded despite never making any profit…
Suspect a lot of those NIMBYs were led by fossil fuel producers in a NIMBY hat…
I just don’t get why they can close down nuclear power plants while still keeping coal power plants open. Coal is so much worse.
I don’t understand why individuals are so set on centralized generation. We suddenly have the capabilities to decentralize generation and greatly reduce the need for the grid. I think it is worth it for the aesthetic advantages alone.
My opinion is that to be truly decentralized we should do both. Not just physically decentralize by location, but decentralized in a sense of having multiple options. We should do solar, and wind, and nuclear power. The power output of solar and wind is just not where it needs to be to replace both nuclear and fossil fuels, so I do have to argue in favor of building more nuclear power, but that doesn’t mean I am against building any other renewables as well.
The problem with nuclear is it gives fossil fuel giants a free pass to try speedrun killing the planet before it even arrives.
If we plan for nuclear, we plan to do nothing for 50 years.
The number of people who still think nuclear power is a manageable risk in any capacity is really depressing. We still have no idea what to do with all the nuclear waste we’re creating even now. And that’s not even considering the impact of having a nuclear plant when you’re in a war.
the impact of having a nuclear plant when you’re in a war
Ukraine seems to be fine, beyond Russians digging up their own fuck up dirt from the past to dig trenches
“Ukraine seems to be fine” is an odd thing to say considering what is going on there in general, but to your point, we can be glad that the fighting around Chernobyl did not do more damage. There’s also a difference in strategy when a country attacks their neighbour to annex their land. If they instead want to mess with a country further away, they can just drop some bombs on their nuclear plants and see what happens.
The vast majority of “nuclear waste” is just common items that have come into contact with radiation. The really radioactive portions can be, and are safely stored within the facilities themselves.
Sure, the barely radioactive waste components do need to be buried (or it seems like that’s the current trend), but they pose no risk to anyone as long as they’re not digging them up.
And for how long to they have to be “safely stored”? For how long do they have to be buried without anyone digging them up? And where are we burying anyway where there is no risk of anyone digging them up intentionally or accidentally, no risk of natural phenomena interfering, no risk of the barrels breaking and nuclear waste seeping into our water? There is a reason why countries have been struggling to find these safe storage spaces for decades. I’d argue that is because there aren’t any.
The architecture of the housing facilities is quite an interesting thing to look into. They’re pretty safe, other than like catastrophic tectonic activity as far as I know.
I think the more interesting part is the labelling of those sites. Well, the potential ideas to mark these areas as dangerous to dig/disturb. What I’ve seen is that it’s trying to mark them for the far future so that even if you don’t know the language, it’s (hopefully) obvious.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_nuclear_waste_warning_messages
Just because you NIMBYs are not smart enough to figure out a solution does not mean its impossible.
Reaching for an unproven concept of “drilling really deep holes” that’s barely a few years old to convince people there is no problem with long-term storage of dangerous waste we’ve been accumulating for decades, but sure, I’m just a NIMBY.
Drilling deep holes is a great concept for geothermal energy. One might even forego the nuclear reactor part then and just do geothermal.
I’m glad you took the time to completely not read the article that I sent you. I know you didn’t read it because if you had read it, you would see that we have discovered several times over the past few billion years that nature had made its own deposits of nuclear material in the same manner as we are advising the waste to be deposited in. It’s not new science. We have evidence of it occurring naturally multiple times and no issues from that. No spread of radiation from that. No inundation of groundwater from that. But yes you’re correct and all the nuclear scientists are wrong clearly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_drillhole_disposal
Next time you find a term you don’t understand. Try clicking on the hyperlink.
Whether it would work or not wasn’t even the main point of what I said. But that doesn’t matter to you anyway as your strategy to debate seems to be to call others stupid often enough until everyone else understands how smart you are. Good luck with that.
The entire French nation begs to differ. Look at that map! Power generation alllll over the country, not tucked in an unpopulated area or clustered in one spot ‘just in case’.
Then look across the border at Germany. The CND and Greens did a number on then generations ago, and Russia has kept up the fear over nuclear so they were able to keep Germany dependent on Gazprom. Until Ukraine.
The article says nothing about waste.
Russia is the biggest exporter of Uranium.
I have no idea what the CND in Germany is supposed to be and neither has Google.
France had to repeatedly power down nuclear plants and buy electricity from neighbours because they couldn’t cool their plants. Because there was so much drought in Europe there wasn’t enough water. A phenomenon that will surely never happen again in Western Europe in the next couple of decades.
France has not been at war since they started building nuclear plants and has no solid plan for dealing with nuclear waste either from what I can tell.
France comes begging across the border for coal and gas electricity in hot summers when their reactors have to lower output because river water for cooling is too hot. Then they pat themselves on the back because the CO2 is not generated within their borders.
Why aren’t Hiroshima, Nagasaki or Chernobyl nuclear wastelands?
Please provide valid sources to back up your comment. Thanks.
I’ve got solar panels on my roof, and being Dutch windmills are in my blood. But I’m also not blind to the reality that both wind and solar will only get you so far. And there’s already a lot of opposition to wind farms - they ruin the view, endanger birds and there’s health concerns due to noise and shadow projection.
If we just build even one nuclear powerplant, we could basically just… not do wind. And we’d have pleeeenty of power for the coming energy transition, change to electric vehicles, etc.
But noooo… nuclear is scary. Especially to the people who only cite Fukushima and Chernobyl in regards to safety. That’s the same as banning air travel because of 9/11 and the Tenerife disaster. Nuclear power is safe, cheap and we owe it to the planet to use it wisely instead of more polluting alternatives.
“Endanger birds”
A whole lot less than most alternative solutions
Aren’t stray cats more dangerous than windmills for birds?
Definitely.
But Coal pollution is also killing more birds.
Main bird killers in the world
building new nuclear plants is barely an option though because it costs tons of money and, more importantly, takes like 10 years to build. However I agree we shouldn’t decommission the existing ones if they still are in a good state
Well, here in the Netherlands we definitely need far more energy in the near future. We’re moving away from natural gas for heating and fossil fuels are going away in favor of electric vehicles. Add in things like heat pumps, more people getting airconditioning, data centers and other growing energy needs.
Basically, right now we have ‘just about’ enough electricity available, but soon it won’t be. We already import quite a bit of energy from other countries, which makes us inherently vulnerable.
Nuclear plants are expensive and take a long while to build. Which is why I hold politicians responsible for not pushing them through years ago. The best time to build a nuclear plant was ten years ago. The second best time is today.
Nuclear is not cheap.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levelized_cost_of_electricity
Even the link itself mentions how it’s not really a good metric to use as it doesn’t factor in whole lot of externalities. I.e coal is cheaper, but when it creates air pollution that shortens your lifespan, is it worth the tradeoff? Nor does it factor in things like energy density: a nuclear power plant is far smaller than the amount of land needed to put up enough wind turbines to match its output.
Basically… LCOE looks like a neat gotcha, right up until you look past that first diagram.
https://www.mackinac.org/blog/2022/nuclear-wasted-why-the-cost-of-nuclear-energy-is-misunderstood
Power from nuclear plants in Ontario is some of the cheapest to produce in the province, because the plants have been running for literal decades.
Its cheaper than climate change.
Its expensive to build new bespoke massive, built on site reactors. I’m not arguing for more of them I’m saying lets run them for their full service lives as they were so expensive to produce. However if we are discussing new installations i’d love to start making a lot of small modular light water reactors in factory conditions. Economies of scale.
I agree. Smaller local modern salt reactors would be a better use of nuclear than investing in the conventional centralised nuclear plants. However they’re still in the experimental phase and not easily available. I too would love if “we” starting making a lot of them, but there’s no finished design or anyone offering to build them for mass deployment.
Right now, with the currently available options, renewable is the only cheap mass produced energy source that can beeasily deployed everywhere and in different scales.
Hopefully the container sized nuclear plants will eventually be as easy to setup.
Renewables also have a similar issue with storage. It exists mainly in experimental projects. It’s extremely local if it even makes financial sense to do it. In places where existing nuclear or hydro is available it will not be make much financial sense to store excess renewable energy with a loss.
Its not exactly new science we have proven designs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_naval_reactors
It’s kinda the same though isn’t it? Opposition to nuclear power, opposition to wind, solar, geothermal, hydro. Seems like maybe what people want most of all is to stick their heads in the sand and just have everything stay the same forever. It was a multi-decade effort to get people off of leaded gas FFS.
Yet those two places are not nuclear wastelands
No, absolutely decommission old and out-of-date plants to avoid anything catastrophic. There is an argument for keeping some of the ones that are there now and even building new ones, but what is happening with the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant in Ukraine is souring me on the idea of nuclear power in general. Not when a war could cause a catastrophe. You can’t really war-proof every nuclear power plant.
what is happening with the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant in Ukraine is souring me on the idea of nuclear power in general
The problem with nuclear power is that it can cause very large problems very quickly if a plant is mismanaged. By contrast, coal plants cause marginal problems played out over 30-50 year lifespan of the facility. One makes for big scary flashy headlines and the other is just a drip-drip-drip of under-the-radar bad news.
Also, it should be noted that nuclear power is too efficient. When you turn on a nuke plant, the amount of new electricity tanks the market. This is awful for cartels and profit-seeking energy retailers. By contrast, gas plants allow you to generate energy on a marginal scale (MWhs instead of GWhs) and only sell into the market when the price is peaking. ERCOT has turned Texas gas plants into absolute gold mines, as electricity selling for $25/MWh in the morning surges to $3000/MWh by late-afternoon.
Solar and Wind plants have similar problems. They generate when the sun is shining and the wind is blowing, rather than when the price of electricity is peaking.
So while nuke/solar/wind plants are efficient, they are also economically self-defeating. They don’t function well in a cartel. They don’t let you fix prices and maximize the cost for retail consumers. And they don’t help you corner the market to press out competition.
This isn’t a problem for Ukrainians (who are lucky to have any amount of electricity any time of day). But its a huge problem for stable western nations inside the imperial core, who need continuous economic growth to justify expanded military budgets with higher tax revenues.
I live in Taiwan and we are decommissioning our last 4 nuclear plants. We also scrapped a newly built nuclear plant because people just don’t understand how safe new nuclear plants are. Instead 97% my stupid country is burning fossil fuel for electricity and our citizens are doing Pikachu faces because of the bad air quality.
It’s even more stupid is that we are gearing up to electrify the country… Using fossil fuels… Which is worse for the environment.
At least electrifying means that you’ll be ready for renewables- that has to be done as well
That’s great but what about other countries unrelated to Taiwan?
They need to catch up.
Tell us how about your country’s economy deflation. At least you have a job working for the Pooh bear.
Would you put your own money into nuclear power these days?
I absolutely would and have done so: https://www.vaneck.com/us/en/investments/uranium-nuclear-energy-etf-nlr/
I literally own a bit of stock in the most nuclear-power-related company in my country - so yes.
Yes - it’s called my fucking electricity bill.
Paper money, sure. But nickels and dimes? No thanks, I don’t want to walk around with radioactive currency
I wouldn’t build a new power plant, but reactivating existing ones makes sense and is cheaper per GW than solar and reactivation has insignificant emissions.
This answer shows that you have no idea of how this stuff works. Reactivating a shut down nuclear plant would require re-certification. Nobody is going to re-certify a plant built on 1960s technology today and for good reason. If you wanted to bring one of those up to modern standards you might as well build a new one.
Nobody is going to re-certify a plant built on 1960s technology
Yeah, that’s why they’re re-starting one built on 1970s technology
It still faces hurdles, including inspections, testing and the blessing of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission, known as the NRC.
Yeah, let’s see how that goes.
Exactly. It’s not about building new ones, that’s incredibly expensive with modern Western safety standards. But at least keep the ones already built running as long as it’s safe. Germany really fucked up with this due to populism
Please stop this nonsense argument about Germany fucking up by shutting down nuclear. Even 20 years ago, nuclear energy wasn’t that significant for our enery mix and shutting it down over the last 20 years didn’t fuck up anything. The last few power plants had a capacity of about 4 to 8 GW and are not missed here.
For the last 20 years, coal consumption declined (could be faster though) and renewable had a steep growth (could be faster of course).
It is true that we started consuming more natural gas, but in the end the change is not about using old nuclear power plants that are unsafe or building new nuclear plants that will be usable in 10 to 20 years but about pushing renewable and improving the grid to solve the distribution problem.
Thanks for the correction, never realized how little the nuclear share was in Germany, I always assumed it was much higher, similar to the countries I’m more familiar with. The recent phase-out barely makes a difference
You’re welcome. I hope I didn’t come across as too pissed off.
“Germany fucked up by shutting down their (last) nuclear power plants” is not only an argument by people outside of Germany but unfortunately is used by german conservatives and the far right as well as libertarians who don’t want to take any steps to fight climate change but try to preserve “the old ways”.
Nuclear in Germany has been more or less dead for a long time. The last (commercial, there are newer reactors used for science) reactor has started building in 1982 and started producing in 1989. People who call for more nuclear power in Germany are at least 35 years too late.
I do think that nuclear power is necessary for the green transition. For now at least.
But two things: 1. It creates radioactive waste that will destroy storage sites for centuries to come. 2. Mining and preparing the fuel needed for the reactors is far from green.
Third and fourth-gen nuclear addresses these issues to a very, very significant degree.
Like, less than 1% of the current waste stream, and waste that lasts around 300 years (as opposed to the current 27,000 (fucking) years.
- It creates radioactive waste that will destroy storage sites for centuries to come.
- Mining and preparing the fuel needed for the reactors is far from green.
Do all of you share one brain cell? Have you ever researched nuclear beyond slurping big oil propaganda? Fossil fuels are currently devastating our water and air, but yes lets fret on hypothetical issues.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_drillhole_disposal https://yle.fi/a/3-10847558
Just insulting people will always make them buck against your points, however valid and informed. Bad approach.
The problem with radioactive waste isn’t the fact that it’s dangerous now, it’s the fact that it remains dangerous for much longer than we’re even remotely able to plan for. People will likely have to deal with that danger in waaaay longer than civilization has existed on earth so far.
So the horizontal borehole for instance: amazing idea for the next century - or even, heck, few millenia!! - but how do you make sure our ancestors in 50,000 years never drill a new borehole right there?
Meanwhile, the Japanese cities where the bombs were dropped: all green and filled with life.
Build more nuclear plants and have the road for fusion reactors. Let the power of the stars be at our fingertips
Ah, fusion reactors. Ready to market in 10 years since 1950.
We have transitioned from solving the decision problems with “will it work?” to solving the optimization problems. Definitely a different time for fusion!
Enter the IAEA web page, there you will find that not even IAEA rhinks of nuclear energy as a replacement. Thats because uranium reserves arent infinite. Once conventional uranium mines run out of uranium, we will have to go for the non conventional ones and prices will go up the paradigm IAEA professes is nuclear is excellent as a transition techonology (they also include natural gas as a transition techonology) to a fully renewable energy market.
Also, its generally not advisable to have more than a 10% of nuclear energy.
We have to cut the demand.
https://www.iaea.org/publications/15558/nuclear-energy-in-mitigation-pathways-to-net-zero
We will never run out of fuel for the next few 10 thousand years. And by that time we’ll probably have functional Dyson spheres.
The greens are principle over matter.
Yeah, principles.
The principles that it won’t be profitable for 50+ years if at all.
And it will mean we are stuck with fossil fuels for just as long.
So I’m all for doing anything to survive, preferably sometime in the last 50 years.
The principles that it won’t be profitable for 50+ years if at all.
Sure, and your source for that is a green politician or an anti-nuclear thinktank?
So I’m all for doing anything to survive, preferably sometime in the last 50 years.
“Anything” for greens somehow doesn’t include nuclear for greens 🤷♂
Because the money is better spent elsewhere.
Yet if we plan for nuclear it’ll be like “oh no, we’ve had project delays and cost blowouts” like they do every time and we will just burn fossil fuels the whole time and die anyway.
Also the anti nuclear green think tanks are called educated people. And all you’d need to do is look at the European failures and shut downs to know the costs don’t add up.
Also the anti nuclear green think tanks are called educated people.
LMAO. Your brain must be so much bigger than that of physicists who are proponents of nuclear energy. Mr “disagreement with my opinion means you’re wrong”.
Very convincing argumentation
