The mods of all the major communities there remove comments criticism Hexbear and usually follow it up with a ban. It’s absolutely clear what is happening and it shouldn’t be allowed to continue.
Welcome to federation, where basically every instance is a proxy to all others.
Btw you are also free to block any instance yourself.
Unfortunately blocking an instance only blocks posts on that instance, not users from it, which is the main issue people have with those instances.
Yeah it’s a very common misconception, I find it weird that people are still having it though when 0.19 is widely available.
Maybe they’re just saying it as a way to be dismissive of the issue, this kind of stuff happens often when people report or call to attention malicious instances or malicious users.
Honestly I think it’s just people that haven’t thought very deeply about the nature of communities they’re supporting.
I use Connect for Android, and when I block an instance it blocks the users too. Their comments are still here, but sort of spoiler tagged.
Yes but surely you can understand that even votes from these poorly moderated instances are distorting the discourse elsewhere in the lemmyverse.
Just because you can’t see it does not mean the problem is solved.
So we wanna defederate to steer votes in a certain way? Worrying so much about votes is such redditor behavior.
I would challenge you to think about how votes can influence the culture of a community.
You’re correct in that worrying about how many upvotes you can accumulate is very reddit.
I’m not really talking about karma accumulation, but rather the way votes can influence visibility of comments. When done methodically, this promotes some ideas over others, and presents an illusion that “everyone else thinks so”. This is a very, very powerful way to influence a community.
We are hard wired to absorb the opinions of those around us. Sure you can disagree with other group members, but even that is an acknowledgement that the alternative perspective you’re disagreeing with is a popular one.
You could absolutely influence people’s opinions on lemmy just with a hacked instance that manipulated votes on comments by just a few dozen points.
You make valid points. Apologies for the Reddit accusation.
But the one thing that comes to mind is that this kind of Communist, like in lemmy.ml, is not big enough to cause this sway.
Sure, the instance is massive, but most users don’t hold those same beliefs. Most people go to it as the “default” instance. So I really don’t think they have the numbers to cause this issue.
Sure. This thread is talking about lemmy.ml, but I’m talking about the current state of the lemmyverse.
I’ve posted this elsewhere in this thread but my unpopular opinion is that federation by default is not sustainable.
Presently admins federate with everyone and blacklist those which are problematic.
It’s inevitable that in the near future someone with a rudimentary understanding of hosting will be able to spin up a dozen instances, each with a few thousand bot accounts, intent on upvoting every “genocide Joe biden” comment.
The fediverse will shatter. Admins will realise they need policies to guide their own moderation, and acknowledge that they can only federate with specific instances with compatible moderation.
So instead of blacklisting bad instances, you need to change to whitelisting good ones.
Btw you are also free to block any instance yourself.
Not how the instance blocking feature works. it’s a common misconception because people don’t read the docs and just assume it does what they think it does. From the News Section on Join-Lemmy:
Users can now block instances. Similar to community blocks, it means that any posts from communities which are hosted on that instance are hidden. However the block doesn’t affect users from the blocked instance, their posts and comments can still be seen normally in other communities.
It’s not an alternative or replacement to defederation, not even close. I’m really surprised this misconception still persists even after widespread adoption of 0.19.x across the Lemmy network.
So you don’t care about the instance you want to ban all the users from there. That’s quite open minded and tolerant!
Honestly, I’m so weary of being open minded and tolerant. I just want to look at linux memes in peace.
Paradox of tolerance, if you tolerate the intolerant then tolerance quickly goes extinct.
Can we stop this please?
It was never that revolutionary in the first place - “if you allow assholes to be assholes everything will go to shit” - I’m shocked.
… but now, after seeing it as a reply to every second comment on lemmy, it’s just spam and doesn’t inform discussion in any way.
You can block instances for yourself instead of blocking them for everyone.
Good lord. It’s as though you haven’t bothered to read any other comments in this thread.
Blocking instances yourself doesn’t solve anything. At all.
Of course they didn’t, they’re just reactively replying to comments that trigger them hoping that the people they reply to also get triggered. They are a troll.
I’m all for defederating Hexbear, but lemmy.ml is absolutely huge compared to Hexbear. To motivate the community to do that you’d need quite a bit of proof. Or at least something rather compelling. Do you have any proof of what you’re referring to?
Asking for proof of what is an open secret on lemmy seems disingenuous.
I think that instances like hexbear, lemmygrad, and lemmy.ml are very bad advocates for Lemmy and will most likely end up damaging it more than anything else, keeping the “normies” out.
They argue in Bad faith, say the most radical stuff they can think of, and purge anything bad said about totalitarian regimes they idolize. China, Russia, Iran, all considered victims of the evil west…
- Uyghur camps > not happening
- Tiannamen square > Just some peaceful protests
- invasion of Ukraine > NATO forced Russia to do it
I was banned from lemmy.ml for posting a meme about the fact that gay characters are removed from movies in China. Not even by a mod. By an admin. I’m not remotely surprised they’re pro-shitheap in general
There is an admin on lemmy.ml that seems to be banning anyone who says anything negative about China. If I’m thinking of the right person, they are also a large contributor to the Lemmy codebase. That person is why I stopped donating to the Lemmy devs.
This kind of stuff is making me consider stopping my donations to the Lemmy project, and instead donating to the Sublinks drop-in replacement developed by the programming.dev instance admins
Hey, I’m the founder of Sublinks. It’s a huge collaboration of several major Lemmy instances like lemmy world, beehaw, discuss.online, programming.dev, and quite a few others that wish not to be named until the release.
Some admins are directly working on the project while others are providing other types of support. @Ategon@programming.dev is certainly a major contributor and has helped develop the new front end in many major ways. You can follow some progress updates here: !sublinks@discuss.online
We have several different teams of developers:
- API / Java
- Front-end / JS/CSS/HTML
- Federation / GoLang
- Libraries / JS
- Requirements gathering and organization
- Design & Graphics - UI/UX
- Lemmy to Sublinks migration tools
There is an active community on Matrix where all of us chat: https://matrix.to/#/#sublinks:discuss.online if anyone is interested in joining. We also have weekly touch bases to discuss progress and next steps. There are tons of people contributing.
We are currently taking donations only through Github: https://github.com/sponsors/sublinks if you’re truly interested. We’re all working on this part-time in our free time and making fantastic progress.
Let me know if you have any questions!
I would like to see proof of how a community doing its own thing of sharing their radical views on their instance is damaging.
I haven’t seen any rampant behavior of lemmy.ml users going to other instances and dogpiling certain posts or comment section. That may be defederation worthy.
The denial of having seen it yourself, is something I don’t believe. Therefore I don’t believe you made your reply in good faith.
Not all of lemmy.ml is a cesspool filled with poisonous cretins, but they (tankies) control the instance at conversational, moderation and administration level. So it will not change, only get worse.
Just like we see with the MAGAts… Once you start drinking your own coolaid… the sky is the limit.
The denial of having seen it yourself, is something I don’t believe.
If it’s so rampant that you find it unbelievable I haven’t seen it, then it must be very easy to prove. Can you please provide a proof?
but they (tankies) control the instance…
It’s their instance. That’s not proper grounds for defederation in my opinion, when the damage is contained within their instance.
As I stated in my preface, no thank you.
And if it is contained in their instance… it does not matter that the borders are guarded by deFederation.
No worries. I never expected you to have the proof anyways, but I wanted readers to be aware that you don’t.
That’s fair. I think most people can make up their own minds looking at the thread, posts contents and then their own experience in the .ml scape compared to the rest of Lemmy.
It’s totally reasonable to ask me to cite my reasoning.
Check my history, I called them out for the NATO one today and they threw all sorts of random shit at me that was off the central point, just looking for a mistake in my wording.
Yep. They were claiming that Putin invaded Ukraine to stop fascists. And that they were liberators. I was like, why would one fascist care what other fascists do? In the US, our fascist, wealthy Republicans largely supported Hitler till pearl harbor. But I did agree with them that the Soviet Union absolutely liberated many countries against their will post WWII. And that those countries still hold it against them to this day.
The gulags were mentioned and they were like, but but but America jails more! To which I told them that was bad. But the West doesn’t kill millions of prisoners the way they did. And all for political dissent, reminding them of just two weeks ago when Putin had Navalny killed for political dissent.
The absurd thing is, I’m one hundred percent down for Marxism. And largely agree politically with his theory plus some modernization. So technically we would agree on a lot of things there. It’s just the Engles and Lenin bullshit I disagree with, and has shown to have failed. Or caused their downfall historically. But they are primarily leninists, dedicated ideologically to authoritarians and strongmen above all reality.
IF lemmy.ml is admin’d by the Lemmy devs, themselves,
AND their ideology/prejudice is being obstructed by the Lemmy-verse,
THEN wouldn’t it be rational for them to engineer-in to Lemmy, itself, protections for their ideology?
Breaking the Fediverse’s ability to “manage” them?
or breaking the Fediverse’s ability to have any alternative-ideology be its core??
I’m thinking they could either adulterate privacy, deliberately, or they could force blocking to be porous, or something…
IOW, I’m thinking that it is strategically-incompetent to allow tankies to own our core tech, exactly as it is strategically-incompetent to allow right-wing highjackers-of-our-countries to do so.
?
They could, but it’s open source software. People can just fork it and not follow along such self destructive paths.
I blacked out irrelevant information.
This is less about the instance as a whole. The !worldnews@lemmy.ml mods are notoriously terrible. It’s best to just avoid the community altogether.
While I agree that hexbear generally sucks, they and I do at least have an enemy in common. That ban is not so undeserved as I was led to expect.
Is your common enemy the People? Because Hexbear promotes authoritarianism and genocide denial.
Tankies say all kinds of stupid things, but even if we grant the thus-far unproven assumption that the person being addressed there is among them, when they’re telling nazis to fuck off that is not an appropriate moment to try and start a pointless fight by asserting that they’re wrong about every single thing.
deleted by creator
Just as long as you’re not Ukrainian, Tibetan, or Uyghur or else they’ll defend ending your life as a human being.
Don’t forget they openly root for Hamas, which will do way worse than just kill people for being queer.
So what? It’s no different from lemmy.world where the vast majority of users pay Palestinians lip service but get buttmad at the suggestion of holding the US government accountable for funding Israel, only because the man in office is their guy. You all are more than happy to sacrifice a few tens of thousands of Palestinians if it means you don’t have to criticize dear leader.
Most of you are gigantic hypocrites on the topic of genocide.
Idk there’s the dunk tank but apart from that CPT…
EDIT: yeah I was wrong I see what y’all mean…
Lemmy.ml is not only a massive instance, it is also the original and core lemmy instance. Widespread defederation would be like a nuclear bomb to the lemmy platform.
Some people have developed alternatives in the threadiverse like kbin or piefed. If lemmy.ml is truly too far aflight for users to tolerate, it seems likely that alternative platforms will fill in the gaps. For now, lemmy is still a thriving and growing platform.
If instances can participate in asymmetric information warfare without reprisal, the Lemmy experiment has failed.
Ml will be long term poison to the group. There’s nothing new to say over there, all their own threads are circular.
Yeah because lemmy world never circlejerks about anything. Meanwhile you’re literally in one now.
It’s not thriving. The devs are prickly arseholes, which is anathema to building a cooperative, volunteer-driven dev community and the tone of many mainstream communities is obnoxiously set by tankies amd their alts.
Probably one of if not the biggest reasons people had poor experiences on Lemmy before was because they signed up on Lemmy.ml
If that’s what it takes I’m ready to switch to a new platform today. Let’s fork and make something healthy.
You might also be interested in checking out kbin, mbin, SubLinks (under development), or PieFed. they each emerged for the reasons we are talking about. They are all free to try and AFAIK interoperable with lemmy for the time being.
Thank you. I’ve been hearing bad things about Kbin the last few weeks, but Mbin and SubLinks sound promising.
So what if it is the original? Bad moderation, combined with idolation of authoritarianism is some poisonous stuff.
The question is if admins are willing to have an open conversation about the moderation and content.
But deFederation is a fine solution. Then the admins on .ml have their way and they can have their little hermit kingdom without any dissenting views. And we can go on with out lives without their bile in our feeds and threads.
It’s crazy that people here want the most authoritarian measure to fight authoritarianism somehow…
What people, what authoritarian measure?
You mean it is strange that sane, normal people want to stop authoritarian/totalitarian fanboys from spreading hatefull falsehoods, stifling dissent using bans and heavy moderation? By using the tools at their disposal and telling these smegheads to f- off? Plenty of speech is deemed unacceptable: holocaust denial, swatstikas, from the river to the sea, white power, just to name a few.
Well if that is your idea of what should be acceptable, we disagree. The Overton window should remain in the middle and not be allowed to stretch to include these extremist views. Not from the “right” or “left”.
This thread is about de federating from lemmy.lm. Because some fascists here are on a witch hunt against some people from hexbear.
It is literally telling everyone that either they defederate from hexbear or they defederate from lemmy.world.
Typical trump diplomacy btw.
I think the issue is way bigger than hexbear, or maybe they are mask off on hexbear. But hexbear, lemmygrad and lemmy.ml can be their own little island archipelago for all I care. If this helps people not have to deal with these idiots.
Keep calling everyone fascists and trump-ets, it does not help your argument.
You see, now you’re saving the people from the evil leftist propaganda.
No just from tankies that most likely are paid propaganda and dissent posters, is all.
If they weren’t such weasels and actually agrued back rather than just ban people like the spineless dimwit twats they are, I’d say the argument that they are easily filtered holds. But given they are just looking to propagate their shilling for Russia, trump (and they definitely do this) etc… fuck em!
Please find a single example of Hexbear supporting Trump. Attacking Biden does not count
If you can’t see how hexbear is mirroring trump rhetoric almost word for word then I don’t know what to tell you.
They’re the new The_Donald, only they’re not even self aware enough to know they’re the bad guys.
I’m not sure which is worse.
Oh shit they’re the new t_d? that’s wild, can you link an example? just one?
Hmmm… brand new account- no content except to be contrarian to the topic…. I’ll entertain your bad-faith question….
Go to those communities. There’s my example. All of it.
Oh damn, what tipped you off? Was it the “hexbear” in my name? Link a single example. Go ahead, make me look like a fucking moron
Go ahead, make me look like a fucking moron
You don’t need my help.
Yes, leftists famously LOVE Donald Trump 🤣
This is the most Reddit radlib shit I’ve seen over here yet. Grow up my dude
Hexbears arent lefties. They are hiding behind acting like they are lefties while at the same time sucking up to the most fascist regimes on earth.
No ‘leftists’ don’t, but you’re all pepe loving little bootlicking fascists.
Lemmy.ml are tankies first and foremost. They’ll defend anything that Russia/China thinks is good.
Calling them leftists is an insult to the rest of us who aren’t authie chuds.
Pretty damn rich coming from lemmy.world where you ban people for criticizing Biden
All you dummies do when you ban and defederate is push more and more people into extremist communities.
I’ve been banned for defending Biden, kiddo…. Find a new bit, the one you’re using is old.
Wait were you banned for defending Biden, or were you banned “for merely suggesting that responding to someone with memes is childish and immature,” or both?
And which of your user accounts were these? Because it wasn’t this one.
Two different things, Detective Kiddo. Sometimes, both can be true.
Wasn’t calling someone “kiddo” how you got this account temp banned from !politics@lemmy.world last time?
Pretty damn rich coming from lemmy.world where you ban people for criticizing Biden
All you dummies do when you ban and defederate is push more and more people into extremist communities.
At some time we have to deal with this.
Keep in mind that we like Lemmy for being a federated platform.
I don’t think there is enough awareness at this point. And the way we do it here, it has to come from the community. The people and mods have to become aware and make a decision to move their participation and the communities to another instance. I don’t see a way around that. This will take some time, patience and effort.
I’ve started to do my part and unsubscribed from !Fediverse@lemmy.ml I’m now going through my list of subscriptions and find alternatives to other communities, so I don’t contribute to the lemmy.ml communities being the larges ones any more.
[Edit: Wow. I’ve replaced 32 communities, some with substantially better alternatives, and I’ve found a few nice additional ones in the process. I still need recommendations for alternatives to: “Peertube”, “Libre Culture”, “Crawling the IndieWeb”, “datahoarder”, “Linux Phones”, “postmarketOS”, “osu!”. I’m glad I did this. I think this is the way to make a change as a simple user. And now I’m not part of the problem anymore. It took me the better part of an hour, though.]
I’m just blocking the entire lemmy.ml instance. I’ve seen consistent problems from them, and nothing worth staying connected with.
Wish I could help you find alternative communities but I’m not sure about the ones you mentioned. They’ll grow over time if Lemmy survives.
Thx. I found the most important communities to me. I’m glad most of them have an alternative and those are going strong. I can live with losing a few minor ones.
Concerning “blocking them”: I’m not sure. I was a strong opponent to the whole defederation and “safe-space” thing last year. Where especially beehaw.org decided to do their own thing and rigorously defederate, often preemptively and without talking to people. I think such behaviour splits the community and disconnects people. I really don’t like all the drama, falling out with each other and particularism. And I think all the feud is a sure way to kill the platform before it even took off with the general public… Honestly, I’m slowly changing my mind. Give me some more time.
I agree with your general point but
splits the community and disconnects people
They aren’t people like you and I. They’re paid shills at best and KremlinGPT at worst. I think to survive and flourish as a platform Lemmy will have to aggressively fight back against authoritarian disinformation. As it stands, I won’t even admit to anyone that I use it because it so full of propaganda.
They aren’t people like you and I. They’re paid shills at best and KremlinGPT at worst.
Oh shit i get paid?
I think saying that any group of humans “aren’t people” isn’t being respectful of others. Please stop.
Intentionally misunderstanding what I said at best, defending propaganda from genocidal authoritarians at worst.
I don’t care about the content of what you are talking about. The community rules say to be respectful of others. And you aren’t. I asked you to stop but you want to argue.
I don’t think shills are people on here in the same way genuine users are, I stand by that. They’re representing authoritarian governments, not themselves.
If you want people to be respectful of others, how about addressing shills who are defending the Kremlin’s genocide in Ukraine? It would be respectful to Ukrainians to acknowledge all of their suffering and close the door on propaganda from their oppressors.
It is a bit more nuanced than that. There are normal people there, too. It’s been one of the largest instances when the Reddit exodus happened. Some of the users chose the largest and the ‘official’ instance. And some of them are still there.
But lemmy.ml is operated by the same people who also run lemmygrad, some moderators seem to be the same. And unfortunately the whole Lemmy software platform is developed by “those” people.
I don’t mind leaning a good amount to the left. I think a few socialist values would advance society and economy. Especially in places like the USA. And I’ve been called a communist for that. But being a tankie is beyond my comprehension. Why would anyone like Putin, defend the CCP and what they do to people. And I’m not overly bothered with the left vs right. It’s the constant yelling, being super argumentative, doing brigading and spreading misinformation.
I think things are changing. I’m paying attention now to the usernames in the comments. And lemmy.ml isn’t the dominating place anymore. Most of the usernames I see come from a broad range of instances. And that’s a good thing. It’s still a home to some big communities which needs to change, too. And I’m also waiting for a new software to come along, written by different people with a different motivation and agenda. In my opinion that’s one of the next steps to emancipate ourselves. I mean if you don’t like lemmy.ml you probably don’t like the people making the decisions there. Which unfortunately are the same people who also write all of the Lemmy software. And their software development decisions reflect the same attitude. But also that’s going to change. A few people are working on good alternatives which strive to listen to the community, invite people to participate and also finally implement proper moderation tools and a few other tweaks to foster good behaviour.
I like Lemmy. But this platform had a hard time from the start. And it’s still struggling. Mixing technological difficulties and innate problems of growing a community with drama, bad decisions, waywardness and friction within the community on many different levels is just stupid and unnecessary. But I’m still waiting for progress and a bright future. I think Federation is one of the best approaches with some potential to make that happen.
I think the solid technological basis is what I’m a bit more concerned as of now. But apart from that I agree that it is us, the community who sets the tone and we decide who we want to listen to, nice people or people with behaviour disorders and an attitude. And it’s a vicious circle. At some point a platform has an image and is bound to tip and attract more like-minded people and less normal ones. And the dynamics are there and we need to actively fight for a nice place.
Well said, I agree with all of that. I’m considerably more to the left as well, that’s part of why I hate lemmy.ml, because they’re preventing actual good growth and movement in that direction.
Hopefully Mbin or some other one of the new forks/platforms takes off soon. I’m ready to move if necessary, I love the idea of a healthy Fediverse and I hope some day I can recommend it to friends instead of being too embarrassed to admit I use it because of all the propaganda.
Seems like they werent such big fans of your post. It has been removed from their instance and your account was banned. Very interesting 🤔
You’ve got things backwards: OP was banned first and then posted this drama in reaction. The post isn’t visible on lemmy.ml because OP is banned.
I was banned from ml for merely suggesting that responding to someone with memes is childish and immature. So OP being banned from ml isn’t really the crime you might think it is.
Backwards or not- it doesn’t make what they said wrong.
I don’t know what account of yours that was, so I guess I’ll have to take your word for it, because it wasn’t the account you’re currently using.
No, it wasn’t. And I’ve much better things to do than to make up stories about a backwoods community on a mid-tier social network.
the evidence suggests otherwise
AFAICT this person is just making up random garbage up all over this thread. They have the means necessary to prove all of their claims if they’re true, but so far have provided nothing.
and to what end? what is the purpose here? spreading spurious and undisprovable accusations is pointless when people can undermine them just by pointing out the nature of the accusation.
The least interesting thing in the world is people complaining about Hexbear, maybe that is why your comments were removed? Why can’t you just block their comms and ignore them? Works for me, I have an account on .ml I use that federates with Hexbear and when I see things that I think are uninteresting, stupid or immature I just move on like a normal person.
This comment is brought to you by the Hexbear outreach program.
Lmao. Welcome to lemmy.world, where anyone left of center or who mildly criticizes the instance is a Russian bot or a secret hexbear user. Y’all have no clue how ridiculous you sound. The whole instance is like a giant neolib /r/politics circle jerk
Do you think comments like these are swaying public opinion in your favor?
Lmao. Welcome to lemmy.world, where anyone left of center or who mildly criticizes the instance is a Russian bot or a secret hexbear user. Y’all have no clue how ridiculous you sound. The whole instance is like a giant neolib /r/politics circle jerk
I’ve been saying this for like 6 months.
.ml is just a filter for Hexbear and lemmygrade users to infiltrate the greater federated instances.
Absolutely is. I’ve no doubt.
I predicted this when lemmygrad got defederated. I said that neoliberals were gonna identify some other instance as the “tankie instance” and start campaigning to defederate from it.
Many people are saying
Funny because it’s always been those 3 instances this whole time, nothing ever changed in our dislike for them.
As long as we all agree you don’t actually care about rule violations, you’re just mad they think differently than you.
What’s funny is that Lemmy.ml users aren’t seeing this neolib nonsense because OP is temp. banned.
“Anything that isn’t praising shitheaps like Stalin, Mao, or the Kims is neolib nonsense”
No. Defederating at the drop of a hat is stupid. You don’t like it? Then you, YOU, block the instance.
I don’t like defederation, but these clowns are asking for it for a very long time.
So, you want people to miss out on cat pictures because your feelings were hurt?
There are much better places to find cat pictures.
Moreover, it seems pretty clear to me that .ml intends to keep their finger on the scale as much as possible. Just saying “oh federation solves all the problems just block them” doesn’t really fix the issue when there are a bunch of ways they can potentially run malicious versions of the code base to mess with how federation functions and hold onto their influence. For example, they are already refusing to federate their mod logs in some cases, and they’ve shown themselves to be completely shameless and hypocritical when it comes to banning any and all dissent. They simply cannot be trusted.
I personally believe that the broader fediverse should seriously consider taking serious steps to cut out .ml before they do something drastic to fuck it all up
Ah! That makes sense. I was on world news of Lemmy.ml and the comments where full of nutters and/or troll farms. It was like gote/gout (or whatever it was called), another Reddit alternative I’ve tried that seamed to fill Nazis kicked off Reddit. I unsubscribed and blocked.
Edit: Voat! That was it.
I think you’re thinking of Voat.
Yes! That’s the one!
Fuck .ml and hexbear. They can all go choke on razor wire.
